Opinion on HOW to write Fanfic for discussion

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lordgriffin
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Void wrote:Those are cracking examples of characters I'd love to see more of. It surprises me there is so little stuff out there with Huntress - she seems a perfect character for this genre. It would even be cool to see more Batwoman.
For me, Void, it is a personal choice. see for me PERSONALLY, I never liked BG very much because all, mainly because she strikes me as nothing more then your average acrobat, with some gadgets. She is just a normal woman (same for Batman etc)

However that is not absolute, There was a recent story ON THIS SITE, where the author ended up appealing to three BIG turns on's for me. mind Control, animal play and Latex. Ended up putting BG in a Penguin suit.

That is also why I love Wolvesbane. The character was always worried about her "feral" self, and it seems to me controlling her, maybe even breeding her to one of my own wolves, would really develop Wolvesbane as a character (which also has never been done). Same for Aurora, imagine her jessed and hooded sitting on her master's wrist as a snowy owl, or further, actually making love to a human woman covered in downy white owls feathers, and with talons to tease yer skin :)

Huntress has her hunting skills.... I know she is like BG, but if done right, I can even like BG, Catwoman,

I tell you who I was really HOT for, Illyana Nikolievna Rasputina AKA Magik when she was slowly turning into a demon (I LOVED her tail) That is beforethe bastards killed her :/
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The GOOD Guys
SECTION 2 part 3

Let’s write first about “The Good Guy(s)” AKA The Protagonist, the Hero, The rescuer and includes the good GALS. Even if “Done right” this character has a huge potential to become the most BORING, predictable and dull character in the story. This is true for a number of reasons

• The Hero(ine) is expected to obey the rules (and as such everyone knows the rules…so predictable)
• The Hero generally acts like most other characters, he’s trying to blend in, not take advantage
• The hero in general exercises restraint…so they are kinda like the parent watching a cookie jar. The kid doesn’t get in trouble unless he is CAUGHT taking a cookie, and (from the perspective of your villain) then they just smile and surrender and the punishment becomes…preferable to the consequences?

This makes your hero (or Heroine) very unrealistic, Take for example, Superman, the “boy scout” it got so bad with SM that they had to give him an internal moral dilemma as to whether or not he should be helping at all…or maybe he should impose his will on everyone for the “Greater good”. However, one must never forget that it is the “Good Guy’s” VIRTUE that makes them such a delicious target. The heroine who is chaste and a virgin, The Heroine who fights for others and sacrifices herself, the heroine who keep her body in good shape. If she was a slut who slept with everyone, that’s not NEAR as interesting as corrupting the pristine virgin.

So….how Do we make an interesting GOOD guy? The answer has already been stated and this will become even more clear when I discuss the BAD guys. First off is to realize EVERYONE, and I mean Literally EVERYONE, has a dark side. A side that we never let out except in times of need. This includes fantasies of control (rape, forcing or compelling others to do what WE want) fantasies of looks (how we want to look or others to look) and fantasies of ability (to be able to FORCE pleasure on any one we want or force pain)

Now before you get all defensive. Mainstream comic DOES this already

• Star Trek “Mirror Mirror” Cpt kirk is divided into his light and Dark side)
• Batman struggles with his need to uphold the law and the need to go OUTSIDE the law to defeat the antagonist
• Tony Stark uses money to get women and became an alcoholic.


Character flaws, weaknesses in powers, will make ANY character more interesting, the reader can RELATE to them. If you’re REALLY ambitious you can EVEN have the protagonist, commit CRIMES and get away with them (or get caught) But that brings up an IMPORTANT PLOT NOTE: Not ALL indescressions HAVE to have a negative outcome or EVEN be against the law.

• A hero can sexually “Cheat” on his GF (BF) and actually get away with it
• A hero might actually STEAL something and get away with it
• A hero can use his powers on others for his benefit, and have no one find out
• A hero Can let an antagonist escape and not be discovered.

Now GRANTED, a HERO is unlikely to commit murder, rape, or theft of a multimillion dollar diamond (Notice I said UNLIKELY) and certainly it would not be an everyday occurrence, but the more flaw you give them, the more “Real” they will seem. Just remember YOU must exercise restraint, Good guys might tell “White lies” if you have them take advantage of EVERY situation your GOOD guy BECOMES the bad guy (corruption) it’s better if the Hero or heroine ONLY succumbs to INTENSE temptation and ONLY when combined with an Opportunity, and THEN, likely doesn’t repeat it without out something EQUALLY tempting.

As a Commander in the armed forces myself, I can tell you, NO one wants to PUNISH a subordinate, NO one (who is sane) wants to KILL someone they do not even know. But to be a LEADER, you must sometimes bark, and punish, even parents know this...so we DO have a dark side that gives us the resolve to see thru difficult or desperate times…

This is the ESSANCE of “corruption” when I write a CANON hero, I like the saying

An Alignment change, from good to evil, is only one decision away” (the reverse is also true)

When I write Cannon, I usually justify the change in the character…by reasoning that…. Most people are afraid of certain subjects. AS such, the original creator did not make the hero as realistic but instead as they viewed the public would accept. (For example, anyone who KNOWS horses know that A Stallion will GO after a mare in heat, however if you watch “My little pony” your unlikely to SEE that theme due to the target audience (kids), that does NOT mean the creators didn’t have some…DARK thoughts for their Own characters they could not express (because of the TARGET audience)) . You can see this in certain ways. Namely heroines clad in SKIMPY outfits, that’s not for utility…everyone LOVES a sexy body…Heck if you watch the latest “My Little Pony” the “young dragon” Spike, has CRUSH on a Pony (rarity) who is older (Can you say Inter species? Can you say even underage?) So it is simply a matter of adding these traits or saying “What IF the hero’s actually reacted like PEOPLE instead of the archetypical “good guy”.
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I just want to chime in long enough to say that personally "corruption" stories leave me cold, and I don't see how having the hero break the law makes him or her more interesting. I've managed to write 21 Fuchsia Fox stories without doing anything of the kind (although there was that one where she was momentarily tempted to blow away a drug dealer). Realistically, people are tempted to take the easy way out all the time, but the essence of a hero or heroine is that they are stronger than the average person. That's my feeling, at least. But I'm not putting it down, if that's what you like.
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I agree with a broad point here: that characters are made more interesting by their flaws, and that everyone has flaws. Of course 'flaws' are subjective, but nonetheless every character will have their own, and these will often be their most interesting features. Characters that are portrayed as sincerely flawless are generally not great characters (though there's plenty of characters that make it work) and it's usually because the reader gets the impression that the writer loves their character so much that everything will go their way and they'll always be right no matter what. I personally really dislike that in a character - how hard is life for them if 'God' is clearly on their side at all times?

I actually quite like corruption story lines, but certainly they aren't necessary in the least to make a good story or an interesting character. I just like them - I like the subtext going on when heroic ideals clash with grim reality, or when a villain tries to subvert a hero. But I like this more as a story thing than a character thing... It could easily backfire and make the character look pathetic if they release their heroic ideals when they meet a stiff breeze, and I would argue such a character might be more boring than someone who resolutely sticks to their virtue. As LG said, many of us compromise - what is interesting about heroes is that they often don't compromise. They aren't like us - and that is an interesting quality. It cuts both ways. I agree with Centurion's notion that heroes are partly defined by their strength of character to resist the temptation of the easy path and to stay true to what is right... And I agree with LG's notion that testing, perverting, or breaking that heroic character is a really intriguing plot device - which wouldn't be nearly as interesting if it were happening to a regular person.

However I disagree with this notion that 'darksides' are the thing we turn to in order to get through desperate times. It might be *a* thing that we might turn to, but certainly there's plenty of alternatives. While I'm sure characters will have their flaws, they won't necessarily have a seedy darkside lurking beneath the surface - and *certainly* this isn't a necessary element to make a character believable. I don't think that this is a universal and defining trait of being a person, and I think if you make a character without it you'll be fine with having a believable character. I won't debate human nature, but suffice to say that when I read about morally selfless and altruistic characters, it doesn't break my suspension of disbelief. While we're on this one, just remember how staggeringly popular superman is as a character - he certainly isn't a template for a character that people won't like, he is precisely the opposite. And in this genre it is more often than not the 'boring' ultra virtuous heroines who people most want to see in peril - rather than more dark, flawed, jaded characters that would be conventionally 'more interesting'.

The main advice I have about making 'good guys' is to make sure you make them consistent (this applies to all characters) and to make sure their actions, or their intentions, are enough that the reader can identify them as being the protagonist. Of course if you're writing canon, the main thing you need to worry about is staying true to the source material, re consistency. I have a wide taste for enjoying all types of heroic characters, but I think the trait I like most is that they have a strength of character that makes them a formidable personality - especially when they're in 'hero mode'.
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Loved reading the replies from both Centurion and Void:

Between the 2 of you, you pointed out rather nicely, that these are all interesting plot TWISTS and are neither required nor restricted. As I have stated If you ALWAYS corrupt the Hero, that is every bit as bad as NEVER corrupting them. Of course they are a target for corruption, BECAUSE of their virtues.... that is also what makes them such a great TROPHY....lets face it deer hunters do not go out looking for the scrawny "spike" buck, in the same way a villain would likely not be interested in an overweight housewife who writes post dated checks....

There is, absolutely, a need for a "Boy Scout" incorruptible Hero like Superman, the same way there is the need for a drunken, playboy hero like Tony Stark

We are talking about variety here, and surprise to the reader, adventure true but BELIEVABLE adventure... As Void pointed out with a canon character (unless your doing a "What if" story" you can not just depart from their nature....If superman is to become dark (which WAS done in main stream) your going to have to d a LOT of writing to show your reader his change in character, perhaps frustration, high ideals, even self justification (Hubris as it was stated in main stream.

But that;s not what i am talking about, I am not talking about turning the Hero INTO a Villain, I am talking about the hero...who is willing to NOT be a boy scout...but is STILL a Hero (Batman comes to mind) The Hero who, when a Millionaire offers him a $100,000 reward for his deeds..blinks and says....well...YEA thanks!

So good posts everyone
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The BAD Guys
SECTION 2 part 4



Ok, now we get to what is inarguably your MOST interesting, MOST important character in your story. The “Bad Guy” Also Known As (AKA) The Villain, The Antagonist, The Asshole, The Prick and sometimes “Snidely Whiplash”. Why is he so important? In the words of the immortal George Lucas “Without Darth Vader, Luke Skywalker was JUST a plow boy on a speeder.” Hell even Disney Corp. realizes the importance of the bad guy when they did there Salute to the villains.

In short, this guy (or gal) is the REASON for your story. Without a “problem” your story consists of “Once upon a time and they lived happily ever after” So now What goes into a GOOD bad guy?

Well much like no GOOD guy is 100% good, no BAD guy is 100% BAD.

· Bad guys CAN have meaningful relationships

· Bad guys CAN self-sacrifice

· Bad Guys Can keep their word

· Bad Guys CAN empathize and be kind

Now, yes likewise the villain may have superficial relationships, they may be (at times) self-centered, they may go back on their word and they MAY be unfeeling. That is what keeps them so INTERESTING, they are capable of doing things that the Hero or heroine might only reluctantly do occasionally. However Making your villain kick EVERY puppy he sees, and go back on EVERY deal he makes is KICKING your reader in the head and saying “I’m gonna MAKE you hate this guy, you have no other choice!

Some of History’s GREATEST villains were rogues who you could not really TELL HOW bad they were.

· Long John Silver

· “Garak” (Deep Space nine)

· “Loki” from “Thor”

· Dr. Doom.

Now, in order for your villain to WORK…the reader MUST be able to “relate” to him, meaning the reader can understand WHY the bad guy does what he does.

· Revenge

· Misguided

· Desire / passion

· Vanity

You would do well to remember; MOST bad guys do not SEE THEMSELVES as bad. From their point of view, what they do is justified, even if their logic is flawed. This could include the simple logic of, I just LIKE what I do.

Whenever is appropriate, the BAD guys must ALSO blend in, and do not normally live is "the halls of Doom" in some swamp somewhere.

A final word here, Sociopaths, sadists, megalomaniacs, and homicidal maniacs, are the EXCEPTION to the rule. Yes, these are bad guys, and they have a very prominent place in stories, not EVERY villain is this archetype. Personally, I have had Batman’s “Joker” till I am nauseous. Remember, CUNNING always trumps brute force, and while I do not agree 100% with it, you’d be wise to check out “101 things I’d do if I were an evil overlord”

http://www.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html
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I pretty much agree with all of that. I think the main point here is that there is more than one seed for a villain (sociopath) and that other types of villains can be equally interesting to use. I'm personally a big fan of the joker, but I'm also a big, big fan of less overt villains. Baddies are still people, for the most part, and their character won't always demand they prove that they're the baddie at every opportunity. Some of my favourite scenes with villains is when they aren't doing anything villainous at all.

I don't think you *need* to relate to the villain. Kind of like the inverse of the hero, the villain can be a character that is uniquely unlike us - just in the opposite way that the hero is - and our inability to understand what drives them can make them quite compelling characters. Villains you can relate to are also good, but I wouldn't discount villains that we can't relate with - common consensus seems to love these characters, though that is starting to change. Much of it all depends on what their actions are and what their motivations are - the two need to be consistent with one another - and that will determine if we can understand them. There comes a point, if their actions or their intentions are especially horrific or obscure, that we simply cannot relate with or understand them - but I think that's fine, and I wouldn't worry about it being a black mark against the character. I agree villains can consider their actions as being justified, but it becomes a thorny road if they consider it *morally* justified. Depends on what sort of story you're telling.

For me, good villains are interesting characters who bring some gravitas to the scenes they are in. It isn't so much about their moral qualities as it is about their presence and effect upon the story. As long as their character is consistent, I'm not sure I have a preference one way or the other about how 'decent' they are. Being more specific to this genre, possibly the most important thing about the villain, and the thing readers will define them for (probably) is the peril they pose to the heroine. If they pose and represent their peril very well, then they'll probably be a successful character regardless of literally everything else about them. I can't agree more with LG's closing point - cunning villains are infinitely more interesting and useful to me than brute force villains. Brutes have their place - and can be fantastic - but I'll always prefer the more cunning types. Starting to veer off topic, but I prefer cunning peril to brute peril, if that makes any sense at all.
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Void wrote:I pretty much agree with all of that.

I don't think you *need* to relate to the villain. Kind of like the inverse of the hero, the villain can be a character that is uniquely unlike us - just in the opposite way that the hero is - and our inability to understand what drives them can make them quite compelling characters. Villains you can relate to are also good, but I wouldn't discount villains that we can't relate with - common consensus seems to love these characters, though that is starting to change. Much of it all depends on what their actions are and what their motivations are - the two need to be consistent with one another - and that will determine if we can understand them. There comes a point, if their actions or their intentions are especially horrific or obscure, that we simply cannot relate with or understand them - but I think that's fine, and I wouldn't worry about it being a black mark against the character. I agree villains can consider their actions as being justified, but it becomes a thorny road if they consider it *morally* justified. Depends on what sort of story you're telling.

For me, good villains are interesting characters who bring some gravitas to the scenes they are in. It isn't so much about their moral qualities as it is about their presence and effect upon the story. As long as their character is consistent, I'm not sure I have a preference one way or the other about how 'decent' they are. Being more specific to this genre, possibly the most important thing about the villain, and the thing readers will define them for (probably) is the peril they pose to the heroine. If they pose and represent their peril very well, then they'll probably be a successful character regardless of literally everything else about them. I can't agree more with LG's closing point - cunning villains are infinitely more interesting and useful to me than brute force villains. Brutes have their place - and can be fantastic - but I'll always prefer the more cunning types. Starting to veer off topic, but I prefer cunning peril to brute peril, if that makes any sense at all.
Hey Void:

When I say "Relate" to a villain, I do not mean make the reader say "I could do that" I mean make the reader understand the characters motivation, justification, and maybe on some level, smile to himself and say "yea there's a person or two I which that could happen to... Now what you suggest, our inability to understand what drive the antagonist, that's just another form of villain, driven by forces unknown.

You pretty much summarized what i wanted to say fairly well, I think Antagonists like "The Joker" have the same appeal as "The Hulk" the fantasy of a total release from restriction of society, to do things with brute force, and without regard to consequence, to people who, for whatever reason, upset us. But again the intent is not to say this kind of character is bad, rather this kind of character ALL THE TIME doesn't work, and can be a crutch for the writer...Hey I can't think of a way to Justify the antagonist, or I don't want to take the time so I just make a "Joker" he does it because...well it's just HIM.

*MY* Personal favorite Villain, is what I term the Ambitious opportunist. An example of this was in the "Thor" Comics, His brother Loki. Loki spent issue after issue, trying to bring to earth (and control) the Fire and Frost Giants. He created his own opportunity, however Due to Thor's fight, Loki lost control of the Giants.....

At the very point where the Giants were about to Snuff Loki's HATED brother Thor, Who arrives to save him, but Loki.... who gives one of the greatest lines I ever read :)

The Giant says to Loki "Why are you opposing us, you HATE Thor"

Loki replies: "What you think I want to rule over a frozen burnt out cinder!?"

And So Loki again created his own opportunity, in this case..he saves the world (and his brother).

My other Favorite from the TV series "Deadwood" Long story short, the cattle Barron, who has been trying to Murder the sheriff and take over the town, has the sheriff in his sights, after killing the Gunman who locked the towns people in the church, severely stabbed the sheriff and doused both is kerosene. No witnesses, it will look JUST like the Sheriff was shot by the gunslinger. and the sheriff looks up, and says "do it" The Barron smiles, and helps the Sheriff to the Doctors, when the Sheriff is bandaged, he looks at the Barron and confused says "...WHY?"

The Barron smiles, pushes his hat back and says "I decided I'd rather have you in MY Debt, then in YOUR grave" *OOOOO Shiver up my spine :) )
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lordgriffin wrote:I mean make the reader understand the character's motivation, justification, and maybe on some level, smile to himself and say "yea there's a person or two I which that could happen to... Now what you suggest, our inability to understand what drive the antagonist, that's just another form of villain, driven by forces unknown.
As opposed to just another form of villain, driven by known forces? I think 'greed' or 'lust' is probably a more common motivator for villains than anything mysterious or unknowable - certainly in this genre. Even villains like the joker are driven by forces that we can at least conceptually understand: he is entertained by the chaos he spreads and he takes pleasure in testing or playing with the characters of those around him. Why these things matter to him is an interesting thing to consider and think about as we watch him do his thing. I agree that is a tough question, but I would argue explaining why anyone ultimately wants anything is difficult - ask why enough and everything breaks down to 'it just is', you just get there faster with the joker. I like it all, and I don't see anything as being overdone in this respect. What I do agree with, and I think this might be what you're getting at, is the villains who have been made to do the villainous act by the writer, but the writer has made literally no effort to flesh out a reason for the villain to do it - they're just a blank puppet doing the deed and having the evil laugh, but they're devoid of character.

There's a big difference between *actually* having no character or motivation, and *seeming* like you have no character or motivation. I find the latter very interesting, fun characters - and I am totally turned off by the former.

I enjoyed your examples of interesting villains at work. I do like villains who effectively have victory in their grasp and then opt to let it go. If nothing else they're quite handy for the heroine peril genre! In this same vein, I quite like villains that have earned their stripes as a proper villain, but then outside forces compel them into a position of having to work with the hero - and as a result sort of play the role of the hero even if they are still motivated by villainous intentions.
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Void wrote:I enjoyed your examples of interesting villains at work. I do like villains who effectively have victory in their grasp and then opt to let it go. If nothing else they're quite handy for the heroine peril genre! In this same vein, I quite like villains that have earned their stripes as a proper villain, but then outside forces compel them into a position of having to work with the hero - and as a result sort of play the role of the hero even if they are still motivated by villainous intentions.

But how often have you seen the reverse, Void? Where the Hero is forced to be the Villain due to the outside forces forcing them, and I am not talking "Blackmail" I am talking like the last Batman movie, where Batman tell Commissioner Gordon, he will stay a criminal...because for now, THAT is what is needed.


But Yes I accept your point, there is a BIG difference between a character SEEMING to not have a purpose, and one that actually does not.

A good example is the Antagonist "Jenner" from the movie "Secret of NiMH" The guy wanted Ms Brisby's medallion like a crack addict looking for a fix, but no one knows why/ the medallion doesn't seem to DO anything except lift cinder blocks from the mud :)
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The UGLY!

SECTION 3

Ok, being as we have discussed the Good, the bad, one thing remaining is “The Ugly.” I call this the ugly because these are “Cliché” plot devices put in to contrive the story away from controversy that makes people uncomfortable, or make a shallow “14 year old view” of what sex is. In other words, UNREALISTIC.

I. The Oral Anal Vaginal Myth.

In my opinion, this is a “Video Porn Industry” contrivance, meant to hold the attention of the average 14 year old who can’t get an actual date. Let’s face it, most porn flicks are not intellectual masterpieces, and there are strict rules for real life actors. The only way they could get the viewer to watch to the end is the ANTICPATON of seeing them go all the way, BUT THAT IS NOT REALISTIC, especially in a written story where the reader can just jump to the end.

Why is it not realistic? Well first, and guys, weigh in on this, *I* am a guy, if a villain has an beautiful unconscious woman he wishes to get pleasure from he’s going STRAIGHT to her cunt…there are some VERY good reasons…

• A cunt does NOT have teeth that can BITE a very sensitive part of male anatomy
• This is what a cunt was designed for
• Anal sex DOES ten to leave the male rather…dirty?

Now this does not mean the male villain has to always go for the pussy first, but you DO have to have some well thought out justification.

• Villain is in a weak enough position he does not want to leave DNA evidence
• Mind control
• Blackmail or seduction


II. Anal sex or “pulling out” as a form of birth control or using a condom.
Ok, let us examine your villain. Powerful, intelligent, cunning. A murder, a rapist, a white slaver dominant. And you want me to believe he is concerned if he knocks up his arch enemy? He will take time to get out a Trojan and roll it down? Again, you can make your villain sympathetic to his enemy, or just not want to have children, but explain and establish that. (But remember you cannot later have him decide to throw caution to the wind with somone LESS exciting then his adversary.


III. Make the sex REALISTIC

• Rape is NOT a bad word, you can use it in the story
• The PURPOSE of sex is PREGNANCY. You cannot have endless sex, and she NEVER conceives.

o Pregnancy is a VERY good way to get a heroine out of the way for 9 mos min
o Pregnancy definitely changes the heroine

• The VILLIAN, who is likely a womanizer, has had more practice and very PROBALY is a BETTER love maker then the victims “true love” in the physical sense

• Tell me again, WHY is the dominant evil mind controlling villain, placing his mouth on the woman pussy? Or ass hole?

o Please do not “mind control” the heroine only to discover your making her do “what she always dreamed of doing” (can you say COP OUT!)
o Performing oral on a woman is an act of CARING, if you want to do it…make the Villain actually in love with her, but if he’s in love with her. Remember that shuts other doors. He can hardly “love’ her and then want to humiliate her.

• The Devil is in the details Know your audience

o DESCRIBE don’t tell

 The 5 senses truth vs fiction

• If you want to “punish” the heroine, describe stink, bad taste
• If you want to corrupt it’s OK to use “bland terms” (salty, earthy, musky)

 Detail vs Minutia

• Too much detail and your reader could get board, or turned off
• Describing scenes that let the reader know WHAT is happening but not HOW, allows the reader to fill in what THEY would most like to see.

o 10 dicks and HUGE tits

 Everyone thinks describing these cocks, and the idea of a perfect women, 2 tits the size of the world trade center with 2 tiny little legs….Don’t just describe the PARTS…describe the ACTION.

• Facts, a few facts educates your reader and makes the fiction better, but choose wisely grasshopper

o Chloroform

 Does not ACTUALLY act quickly
 Can stop the heart
 Burns the skin

o Hypnosis and Mind control

 Again do not Use mind control to discover the victim is actually willing
 Do not make it too powerful, or the villain would just solve EVERYTHING by mind control


IV. Tell me again why you’re beating her?

Ok, I do not GET this one. If your villain hates her, and wants nothing but to cause her pain and death, ok, but who wants to make love to a bloody mess? Talk about breaking yer toy. Punishment is one thing but disfiguring?


V. The villain so bad EVERYONE wants him dead.

Basic math here. If there is only a million to one chance that your villain can be defeated or killed, and he is so evil and brutal his two million slaves would rather die than suffer any more. Guess what it’s two to one in FAVOR of your villain being defeated. Don’t make him stupid!


VI. Shame vs Humiliation

Try to use the terms correctly, I find many people use the words wrong in an attempt to force the reader to feel the desire emotion it WON’T work


• Humiliation- comes from the inability to prevent a “perceived” taboo actand is EXTERNAL it is something your villain can force on the victim. For example, stripping her naked and forcing her to walk naked down the street is humiliating. Everyone could see she could not resist him.
• Shame- Comes from performing a perceived taboo act willingly and is INTERNAL. It is what the victim FEELs as a result of their own short comings. She was ashamed she lost the fight, allowing the villain to strip her naked and walk down the street. Her shame was losing the fight, not being forced. A more USEFUL example, is the woman who experiences an orgasm during rape. This is a common REAL LIFE emotion as a woman rationalizes this was an act against her will she should not FEEL pleasure (which is purely physiological)


VII. BE CAREFUL how you guide your readers emotions


• Heroine breaks down into sobs and “just wanted to help people” (a very “realistic” response) the average reader sympathizes with the Heroine and despises the antagonist.
• Heroine struggles and loses to a “mind-blowing” climax (a healthy fiction) the average reader tends to sympathize more with the antagonist
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Ugly is right!

I guess this post is all about the sexual content that can arise in this genre... Which is a tricky area now because we're tying into all the various kinks and fetishes that brings people to these stories - which starts to become more about personal taste than anything else. I agree you need to be careful what emotions you trigger - and you're walking a tight rope on that one about how much you are playing the story out as fantasy or not, or how 'realistic'/'believable you want to be. Depends what story you want to tell - as it always does - but for me there is a sweet spot to balance here between horrible reality and silly unreality.

As for all the rest, it's hard to comment because that is all personal kink. I would say that it's worth bearing in mind that not all villains will be interested in their own pleasure - or their own pleasure won't immediately entail physical pleasure. Personally I'm more interested in the villains that want to force pleasure onto the heroine, rather than the ones that want to take pleasure from her. Justifying why they would do this is easy, and perfectly believable. Forcing pleasure is a compelling expression of power, and it is also a great plot device to subvert the heroine. I don't think there is a right or wrong way to have sex - specially in fiction - and that one will just come down to the kinks of the writer/the kinks of the relevant characters.

I would stress there is a difference between author's intent and the personal interpretation of the reader. Many of these elements may just be author's preference, rather than something done to avoid controversy, or to appease the blood god, or whatever else we can project on to it - *specially* because this area is where much of people's differing fetishes lie.
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Void wrote:Ugly is right!

Personally I'm more interested in the villains that want to force pleasure onto the heroine, rather than the ones that want to take pleasure from her. Justifying why they would do this is easy, and perfectly believable. Forcing pleasure is a compelling expression of power, and it is also a great plot device to subvert the heroine. I don't think there is a right or wrong way to have sex - specially in fiction - and that one will just come down to the kinks of the writer/the kinks of the relevant characters.

I would stress there is a difference between author's intent and the personal interpretation of the reader. Many of these elements may just be author's preference, rather than something done to avoid controversy, or to appease the blood god, or whatever else we can project on to it - *specially* because this area is where much of people's differing fetishes lie.
Well Void:

As we have said many time, all things in moderation, however, hat tends to confuse me is..*IF* you, as the author, decide to Do away with or ignore such "ugly" things as Sexually Transmitted Diseases (STD), Pregnancy, and callous disregard... I begin to ask myself teh question...why woudl anyone say NO...there are no down sides only UP sides.

I picture a court hearing going like this...

Prosecutor "Wonder Woman, did my client, "The Joker" in any way injure you physically

WW: No Sir

P: Did he possibly get you pregnant?

WW: No Sir

p: did he have some kind of diease?

WW: No sir

P: were you heard to be screaming 'Oh gods oh gods yes...please do it again?"

WW: Yes sir

P: so um....why are you here>

WW: Um....It's the best sex I ever had but um....I didn't want it....

Or better I woudl pay GOOD money to just once see THIS: )


Joker ties up wonder woman and strips her naked cackling insanely.

Wonder Woman Struggles "Stop Foul fiend...You will never getaway wi.....whey why are you getting on your knees between my legs.

Joker: "Um...I am going to..er.....Molest...uh.

Wonder woman blinks and smirks "you were going to eat me out wen't you...

Joker: Er...um...yes?

Wonder woman OMG... ok ok ok...um.. I'll go back to struggling...you get yer face down there!

Joker : Um...Your not scared?

Wonder woman " No no..I promise to be scared..yes.. um..OH oh..someone please help me...*whispers "Go on. go on..come on start licking

Joker: Um....it's not the same....
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Haha

Yeah, they're quite comical situations! But then they both place pleasure on a rung so high that things like personal integrity and pride and emotional trauma and free will are seemingly valueless or meaningless - which is fine, but no longer believable. In reality it would be literally untrue to say there are no down sides, not to mention that the story can carry the risk of pregnancy and STDs without actually ending with them. On top of that, the villain can still be cruel and dominating and abusive while they force pleasure onto the heroine. Physical pleasure does not negate or trump these things. The ends don't justify the means, specially if the end is merely that the heroine physically enjoyed herself - you mention yourself that there is shame to be found in that, as well as humiliation.

That being said, you strike out at the idea that it becomes hard to say no to it or fight it - even depicting wonder woman accepting the joker's advances, only pretending to resist. If you think that way, then it lends credit to the idea that the heroine might struggle to resist it - which makes it a great plot device in corrupting or subverting, or just plain beating the heroine. You brought up corruption being an interesting route to take a heroine, and I think peril like this is a decent mechanism to move along that path.

But hey, I'm now discussing a personal kink, so I'm biased - as are you, I suspect, biased towards a more true to life, gritty story. I sling my hook a little more into the realm of fantasy, where I think yours is more in reality, where lie pregnancies and STDs and more realistic depictions of actual rape. Since we are on the sexual element of peril, we're all going to have personal preferences here - with contrasting things of what shoots us out of the scene.
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Void wrote:Haha

Yeah, they're quite comical situations! But then they both place pleasure on a rung so high that things like personal integrity and pride and emotional trauma and free will are seemingly valueless or meaningless - which is fine, but no longer believable. In reality it would be literally untrue to say there are no down sides, not to mention that the story can carry the risk of pregnancy and STDs without actually ending with them. On top of that, the villain can still be cruel and dominating and abusive while they force pleasure onto the heroine. Physical pleasure does not negate or trump these things. The ends don't justify the means, specially if the end is merely that the heroine physically enjoyed herself - you mention yourself that there is shame to be found in that, as well as humiliation.

That being said, you strike out at the idea that it becomes hard to say no to it or fight it - even depicting wonder woman accepting the joker's advances, only pretending to resist. If you think that way, then it lends credit to the idea that the heroine might struggle to resist it - which makes it a great plot device in corrupting or subverting, or just plain beating the heroine. You brought up corruption being an interesting route to take a heroine, and I think peril like this is a decent mechanism to move along that path.

But hey, I'm now discussing a personal kink, so I'm biased - as are you, I suspect, biased towards a more true to life, gritty story. I sling my hook a little more into the realm of fantasy, where I think yours is more in reality, where lie pregnancies and STDs and more realistic depictions of actual rape. Since we are on the sexual element of peril, we're all going to have personal preferences here - with contrasting things of what shoots us out of the scene.

You know Void, you responded so PERFECTLY, the only point that I disagree on is our differences, I do not think you and I are very different. Let me say first off, that forcing unwanted pleasure on a heroine is one of my Favorited things to do, and it does NOT have to involve pregnancy or STD (though as you point there can be the RISK without the RESULT)

The problem I am hoping to highlight, is one of motivation and believability, even IN the more fancy, less realistic settings.

Example.

-Villain full on mounts Wonder Woman, and during the course of HIS pleasure....bring her to climax- BELIEVABLE and in fact a HUGE Male fantasy

- Villain uses masturbation to bring Wonder Woman to climax- Believable *I* control what you feel

-Villain is crazy about Wonder Woman, Wonder Woman wouldn't give him time of day.... Villain ties up wonder woman and performs oral on her till she climaxes- PUSHING it...but Believable.

- Villain HATES Wonder Woman, wants her to DIE despises her, and to humiliate her, kneels down and eats out her pussy (prob before trying to kill her) NOT Believable...Come on really?

-Villain wants to Humiliate Wonder woman..So has minions rape Wonder Woman, then to "Finish her off" Kneels between WW's legs and eats his minions cum out of her pussy till she climaxes- are you freaking KIDDING me?

-Villain wants to humiliate Wonder woman, so bends her over and sucks and tongues her anus...-Really!?


I have NO problem using forced pleasure on a female...POWERFUL plot device, but don't just THROW it in there because..hey it's my kink and I just want to do it because I like the idea (UNLESS you have developed your antagonist with the same kink). And allow for the heroine to be intelligent enough...to make a JOKE out of it, and try to humiliate him back in an attempt to take AWAY his pleasure (and control.

Something that many people who do BDSM overlook. when a Slave gets her master angry....the slave has control... The Slave may not enjoy the reaction, but may get INTENSE satisfaction out of saying "When I want..*I* can control what you feel..I can make you angry and forget about yer pleasure.
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Aha, okay, I agree with that. The peril that the villain brings into the story should be consistent with the villain's character and the villain's intentions - that's a fair point. If the guy hates the heroine and he wants her to suffer, the story would need to do quite a lot of legwork to establish why he would worship her and pamper her like a slave would a lord. I'd go on to say that all the events of the story should make sense and be consistent within the story universe. Villains can do all sorts of weird and wonderful things, but all these things need to be established and justified - rather than being done just 'because the writer wanted to'. Your point reminded me of the classical Bond villains that were cold, calculating men, but when they had absolute power over the hero they would choose the most contrived, elaborate, and often self-defeating ploys to kill him.

I like your final point as well, mainly because it implies a heroine who doesn't adopt the role of 'victim' just because she is helpless, and has the strength of character to defy the villain and even manipulate them. Fighting back like that not only damages the villain's fun, but it even opens up chances to take back control if they can goad him into creating an opening. Not all characters would go down that route - making light of it or turning to name calling - but I just like the implication of a heroine staying heroic and strong. It's sometimes inconsistent, in my opinion, if the heroine just behaves like any old victim the moment they are bound, or whatever. I think of heros like Batman - who seems to get himself captured a lot - who are always scheming to take back control and to use his intelligence to manipulate the villains, and I can't help but think a female hero doing the same thing while in the clutches of a perverted villain would be a really great scene. I'm all over that.
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Void wrote:I like your final point as well, mainly because it implies a heroine who doesn't adopt the role of 'victim' just because she is helpless, and has the strength of character to defy the villain and even manipulate them. Fighting back like that not only damages the villain's fun, but it even opens up chances to take back control if they can goad him into creating an opening. Not all characters would go down that route - making light of it or turning to name calling - but I just like the implication of a heroine staying heroic and strong. It's sometimes inconsistent, in my opinion, if the heroine just behaves like any old victim the moment they are bound, or whatever. I think of heros like Batman - who seems to get himself captured a lot - who are always scheming to take back control and to use his intelligence to manipulate the villains, and I can't help but think a female hero doing the same thing while in the clutches of a perverted villain would be a really great scene. I'm all over that.
Just be careful Void, not to go to the other extreme and make the Villain an idiot, he's going to react to that as well :)
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I'm not suggesting anything about the villain one way or the other - my focus is on the heroine not playing the victim. Ideally both characters will be smart - and I like the interplay of wits that might be found in a scene like that. The villain will react, but it is what that reaction will be that is debateable - and that opens the door to being a successful manipulation, or not. It would be a mistake to take the stance that the villain should never be outsmarted - just as it is okay for the heroine to be outsmarted - so long as you play it right, and, one more time now, *consistently*!
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Void wrote:I'm not suggesting anything about the villain one way or the other - my focus is on the heroine not playing the victim. Ideally both characters will be smart - and I like the interplay of wits that might be found in a scene like that. The villain will react, but it is what that reaction will be that is debateable - and that opens the door to being a successful manipulation, or not. It would be a mistake to take the stance that the villain should never be outsmarted - just as it is okay for the heroine to be outsmarted - so long as you play it right, and, one more time now, *consistently*!
and THAT, My Dearest void, is the whole HEART and SOUL of writing fanfic, that whole HOST of possibilities, with your reader TRULY not knowing which way things will go.. that anticipa............tion. and knowing that whatever way it goes will seem real...not a cop out or contrived :)
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How to Write a Fanfic

Ultra Taboos

When I was in The Naval academy, we got asked WHY people watch “Horror Flicks”? Being as MOST people would not NORMALLY want to feel their life is in mortal danger or see others hurt. What we came up with is the REASON people read, is we ALL like to have feelings….Fear being one of those feelings, though you can imply Lust, love, and a host of other.

This will be the last part of my series (but NOT the last post yet) I want to talk about some things I call “Ultra Taboos” these are behaviors that are SO socially unacceptable that I feel people become afraid to write about them for fear of a Stigma or social ostracizing. The fun thing about this is having the COURAGE to write these things, will often take your story from good to GREAT (PROVIDED the taboo fits in the story and is not just “thrown in there” to say you did it. And these social taboos CHANGE

Did you know Leonardo Da Vinci, Pablo Picasso, and many others were considered vulgar. In fact many of DaVinci’s sculptures, including the famous “David” had their cock chiseled off (Because it was considered vulgar) and it was not so long ago you could not even SAY “Gay” (as in homosexual)

That said the first “Ultra Taboo” I’d like to discuss is RAPE Rape is NOT a bad word. But you hshould UNDERSTAND rape to use it right (and using rape does not MEAN you SUPPORT rape…I do not support murder but lots of people write murder mysteries.

What rape IS:

1. Control, NOT passion (sex)
2. An intense assault
3. More Psychological than physical
4. Generally has a different effect on males than on females

What rape is NOT

1. Beating the crap out of someone (that’s Assault)
2. Gender specific
3. Forced pleasure
4. Forced Seduction

Now of course we WRITE about such things because we like the fantasy, the ability to have pleasure without limit, request or even permission. In fact I am told by Psychologists that men and women BOTH generally have rape fantasies, that does NOT mean either side wants to be HURT, and again in general males have a DIFFERENT fantasy then women.

For males, Rape Fantasy (Usually) takes 1 or 2 forms (remember in general)

1. Forcing pleasure on a woman and being SO good, she cannot help but climax over and over. This is the classic “Gone with the Wind” fantasy where Rhett Butler grabs a Struggling Scarlet and as he kisses her she melts in his arms. The reality…no means no.

2. The male Psychologically destroys the females while the male gets prestige... (Stud, Stallion, Macho)


For Females, it is different, I am TOLD for them. There is such a social Stigma about having sex out of wedlock (slut, whore, Bitch) that I am told they have fantasies of someone taking them against their will, so that they can actually ENJOY sex and then honestly say “I was forced I had no choice” again this does not mean she is fantasizing about being HURT.

The cold hard facts about rape (and you can USE this in your stories) is that the PHYSICAL reaction cannot be helped…IF you stimulate a cock or a pussy correctly, the victim WILL have an orgasm. This seems to REALLY bother women. They ask themselves WHY that happened; does that mean they liked it? They feel they have betrayed their chosen partner…

So the bottom line here is, if you USE rape in a story, It’s pretty unlikely that the woman will get up and say “ok back to business” she is going to be damaged.
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Not sure I agree with your third point in the first instance about what it is. The lasting damage might be more psychological than physical (but not always) but the act itself certainly isn't. A lot depends on how you write the victim - as a victim or as a hero who endures it . There was a line in Xena years ago where she was captured and threatened with sexual assault and she answered almost indifferently that it wouldn't be the first time that it had happened to her. IF the victim is resigned/accepting of it in the sense of being able to 'deal' with it psychologically, then the act is wholly a physical one. Its a fair enough point to note that in most cases they will be damaged but it does depend on how you write the victim - but that in itself is an important part of it. We all cope with crises in different ways. Some can switch off and get on with it, others can't.

Good and valid points about what it is NOT though.

However, I don't agree that 'we write it because we like the fantasy' either -thats a pretty sweeping statement - its just a part of the plot , a means to an end for some, a way of progressing the story in a particular direction or towards a particular goal. Yes ok some will like it or like to write it, but not all - I entered a competition and put it in just because the criteria called for a forced sex scene. If it hadn't been a necessity I'd have happily omitted it, it brought nothing to the party for me.

This has been a good series and whilst I don't always agree with your standpoint the discussions the parts have provoked have been very interesting and entertaining.
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tallyho wrote:However, I don't agree that 'we write it because we like the fantasy' either -thats a pretty sweeping statement - its just a part of the plot , a means to an end for some, a way of progressing the story in a particular direction or towards a particular goal. Yes ok some will like it or like to write it, but not all - I entered a competition and put it in just because the criteria called for a forced sex scene. If it hadn't been a necessity I'd have happily omitted it, it brought nothing to the party for me.

This has been a good series and whilst I don't always agree with your standpoint the discussions the parts have provoked have been very interesting and entertaining.
Hey Tally:

You must remember my "Sweeping statements" are meant to speak in general. I could argue that while you may not like the ACT of rape, the writer enjoys the emotions it evokes. "Hey I dislike Rape but I LOVE being the hero bursting in to stop / prevent / heal the victim" if we did not have some aspect of teh act we would find some other plot device to use :)

Thanks for your kind comments, even though it appears my thread has lost many people's interest, you and Void are loyal readers :)
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I agree with T's point that not everything we include in a story is because we like them or they are a fantasy. Some things are there as necessity or just as a structural requirement. Specially considering the point was made earlier in this thread that believable stories need to follow the path of plausibility - which means the things included or depicted within the story are often governed by those considerations rather than necessarily being because it's a fantasy of the author's. You make a decent case for what the fantasy is for people in the event they see it as a fantasy, though.

I also agree that the after effects of something like rape will depend very much on the character that it happened to.

I think you hit the nail pretty perfectly for what the fantasy is surrounding this topic, including the differences between the genders, though those reasons may also be shared between the genders a fair amount. Having power and being disempowered are very sexual themes, as is being very active or very passive when it comes to getting or receiving pleasure. The fantasy aspect of this is a pretty common one, I think, and you see it being teased at *a lot* in fiction geared towards women - specially the vampire genre. I think plenty of couples the world over enjoy dabbling with the fantasy, to one extent or another, of giving up or taking control and forcing or being forced to experience really sordid pleasure. Like much else, it can be a really fun and healthy fantasy.

*However* references to real victims of abuse harms this discussion.

I'm nervous that the line between fantasy and reality is being muddied here. As a *fantasy* it's fun to think about pleasure being unavoidable and inescapable because it is just a matter of physical stimulation. The *reality* is that it will always be a matter of physical *and* psychological stimulation. It doesn't matter what is happening to your body - if you are sincerely impotent with rage, terrified of a violent, imminent death, and suffering gross humiliation, I guarantee you will not orgasm. You probably wouldn't even register pleasure of any kind. There is nothing in real-world facts or research to dispute this. The ultimate difference-maker is the perception of the victim for what is happening, so that also needs to be stimulated - to put it mildly. This can be manipulated (seduction) but it can't be completely detached from the reality of what's happening (unless maybe they're drugged). Anyways, the base point here is that the victim physically enjoying rape exists in fantasy but not reality. It isn't black and white, certainly, and there's (forgive me) shades of grey along the spectrum of consent and assault - but I'm very, very wary of suggesting that any real victim orgasms during rape in the *real* world, given the depth that we go into the *fantasy* of this topic. You want the fantasy to be believable in the story, for sure, but it is still fantasy and it is still a story - safely separate from actual reality. The fantasy is kinky and fun, with interesting possibilities to explore themes like forced pleasure; the reality is horrific without exception.
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Void wrote:I agree with T's point that not everything we include in a story is because we like them or they are a fantasy. Some things are there as necessity or just as a structural requirement. Specially considering the point was made earlier in this thread that believable stories need to follow the path of plausibility - which means the things included or depicted within the story are often governed by those considerations rather than necessarily being because it's a fantasy of the author's. You make a decent case for what the fantasy is for people in the event they see it as a fantasy, though.

*However* references to real victims of abuse harms this discussion.

I'm nervous that the line between fantasy and reality is being muddied here. As a *fantasy* it's fun to think about pleasure being unavoidable and inescapable because it is just a matter of physical stimulation. The *reality* is that it will always be a matter of physical *and* psychological stimulation. It doesn't matter what is happening to your body - if you are sincerely impotent with rage, terrified of a violent, imminent death, and suffering gross humiliation, I guarantee you will not orgasm. You probably wouldn't even register pleasure of any kind. There is nothing in real-world facts or research to dispute this. The ultimate difference-maker is the perception of the victim for what is happening, so that also needs to be stimulated - to put it mildly. This can be manipulated (seduction) but it can't be completely detached from the reality of what's happening (unless maybe they're drugged). Anyways, the base point here is that the victim physically enjoying rape exists in fantasy but not reality. It isn't black and white, certainly, and there's (forgive me) shades of grey along the spectrum of consent and assault - but I'm very, very wary of suggesting that any real victim orgasms during rape in the *real* world, given the depth that we go into the *fantasy* of this topic. You want the fantasy to be believable in the story, for sure, but it is still fantasy and it is still a story - safely separate from actual reality. The fantasy is kinky and fun, with interesting possibilities to explore themes like forced pleasure; the reality is horrific without exception.

Hey Void:

I am going to chime back in on 2 points here. The first is that not everything you include in a story is because you like it.... I grant your point, however consider this (Especially in this genre) There are an infinite number of plots to write out there and like wise a similar infinite number of plot devices. You can not tell me if you choose to write about a scantily clad, Fantasy model beautiful woman in a cat suit, going up against a White slaver rapist, that you did NOT have some inner fantasy and enjoyment there. I mean if you DISLIKE it that much, why not write about a corrupt politician? Or write about a Scientist trying to develop a Bio-weapon, or write about someone dumping industrial waste into the environment? SOMEthing motivated the write to write about a Heroine going against that white slaver...about putting her in Peril. Now I grant you the heroine WINNING MAY give you more enjoyment then the rape scene, however you LIKED the plot or you would not have written about it.

Now this Dovetails BEAUTIFULLY into the next point because your first 1 words were "I'm Nervous" and I think THAT is a HUGE motivator behind the Heroine winning. Being nervous that ANYONE might suggest that someone enjoyed rape. Well I am sorry to say, that YES, someone ENJOYS rape...that someone is usually the RAPIST. He or She has a HIGH old time.... And I stand fast that you need not be nervous because YOU may have a fantasy of BEING that rapist.

Ok ok ok...reality check....it IS a fantasy, because in reality, someone woudl be just as Physically and Psychologically devastated as you describe. And Personally..if I found myself raping someone...THAT is what woudl stop me, I'd not be able to STAND knowing what I did to another human being. That is WHY it's called a Fantasy....*I* make it come out where the woman accepts what happened, that is not reality.

I want to point out (And I do not think anyone is making that argument) that the whole "if you write it someone else will think it's ok and act it out" is a large load of horse shit. If someone is capable of such an act, and THAT out of touch with reality, they will make their own fantasy. What I do or write does NOT make me responsible for what someone else DOES. And ANYONE who would, in Real Life, rape anyone or harm a child aught to (and you can quite me on this) Have their genitals nailed to the floor of a very old very dry wooden building, then the building doused with gasoline, lit on fire and the Perp handed a rusty butter knife.

Last thing...putting on my Medical hat. When I say anyone being raped can be forced to have pleasure...that is completely different from ENJOYMENT. The Science of it is...you are correct psychology is a LARGE part of sex (90%) However..manual stimulation of the proper anatomy will cause an orgasm which will cause a pleasure response in the animal brain of the being. Add to that someone who is adept with Psychology can be devastating.

As a Paramedic in a Major City for 30 years, I have been in contact with many many many rape victims of both genders.... 90% of what the say is the same....WHY did I climax..how..could I have LET that happen....Yep if yer terrified your not very aroused...but at a point there can be an orgasm..hence why people like Masochists and other such alternate lifestyle can find enjoyment in what repulses others.
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I agree people must have an interest of some sort in what they write about if they're going to write about it, but it's far too simplistic to break it down to fantasy. Yes we presume the writer enjoys the story in some fashion - but that is when all the pieces come together, rather than to hold each in isolation. I could include Mr Brown driving in his Volvo down to the cliffs where he smokes a cigar and thinks about Mrs Brown - but it might be odd to say I carry a fantasy for cars or cliffs or driving or smoking cigars or Mrs Brown, just because I included them! They're necessary elements to the story - and it's fair to say I like the story - but you can't zero that back to each and every brick I used to make it. Now you're right, in this genre, with such heavy emphasis on sexualised peril when it isn't necessary, and it necessitates parting ways with plausibility, there is a lot of reason to think the writer likes the element he is adding in. Even so that is a contextual argument, and this doesn't apply to everything - it couldn't. You can also enjoy what an element brings to the story and still not call it a fantasy - which implies a desire to experience it. I enjoyed some of the grim deaths in game of thrones - however I carry no fantasy for being grimly murdered or murdering grimly. At best you can say I enjoy observing the fantasy play out - and that's very fair to say.

Indeed I imagine rapists do enjoy raping - my concern was only directed towards implying the victim did (even if only physically).

... Well this was interesting. I stopped here to go read up on this before I launched into a rant... and indeed this isn't black and white about whether or not there is a disconnect between the mental and physical. It's not certain one way or the other, and it seems people struggle to define sexual arousal, but I highly doubt there is a total disconnect between what's going on in your head and what's going on in your pants. We'll agree that psychology is a massive element of sex, and we'll agree that with mental and physical manipulation you can force someone to orgasm. As for physical stimulation regardless of anything going on in the person's head; we'll agree to disagree that's possible. Perhaps in non-violent cases where it is a case of acceptance to coercion, or dubious consent, this happens, but not in cases of violence or terror. I'll grant you that this isn't as clear cut as I thought.

I'm sure many people find great enjoyment in fantasy - like masochists - and I'm sure many victims of rape ask why they let it happen and blame themselves, or just generally feel shame and guilt - but 90% climaxing? I'm not even sure nine out of ten consensual lovers can make their lover's climax, or nine out of ten people off the street are even capable of having a climax, much less nine out of ten victims of rape. But again, having stopped to look this up it does look like this does actually happen in around 5% of reported cases, and that percentage is probably higher if you include people who understandably don't mention it. So again I have to grant that this is a valid thing that happens, though I'd wager these are all instances where the mental aspect of the assault has been soothed (victim accepts it/they are drugged). But fair dues, this exists (uncommonly) and that makes it pretty pertinent to this discussion given that plausibility is still important within the fantasy.

Consider me illuminated - and maybe a tiny bit less innocent!
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Interesting how the topic has evolved & always interesting to hear about guys' takes on "rape"

<Edited/partially deleted - sorry, I probably shared more than I should have. A bit too much red wine that night. >

To the kink that is so much in this forum, for me, sex is secondary. I mean, it's a weapon to be used but the REAL arousal, for me, has very little to do with sex. More so, it's all about the power and the transferrance of, or loss of power. I certainly can't speak for all, but for me, I can become more aroused via the "power" thing than I can from the most talented tongue, as an example. Well, at least in the sense of foreplay arousal. Play the power angle on me and you'll have me ready for total surrender!

I guess the thing is, for me, there is less arousal to be derived in reading about sexual acts themselves as compared to writing about that thin line of control and loss of that control, about having all the power but arrogantly flirting with losing the power. Granted, probably 97% of the readers of this forum are males, so I would imagine that for most here the graphical description of the sex itself might be more arousing than the nuance of power and control. Don't get me wrong, I mean I still do enjoy reading about the sex as a consequence of the loss of power, but it's the loss of power itself that is the real arousal trigger.

I hope I haven't strayed too far off topic. Just thought a messed up girl's perspective might be an interesting alternative perspective offset for y'all to consider. :-)
Last edited by flirty_but_nice 9 years ago, edited 2 times in total.
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flirty_but_nice wrote:Interesting how the topic has evolved & always interesting to hear about guys' takes on "rape"

Wanna hear a girl's take?

I hope I haven't strayed too far off topic. Just thought a messed up girl's perspective might be an interesting alternative perspective offset for y'all to consider. :-)
Flirty:

I ABSOLUTELY want to hear a girl's take... You may have noticed that my previous posts had the disclaimer "I have been told" so yes I am THRILLED to have your input, and would love to both speak with you more and have you post more....

I will respect yer request for no Apologies / pity etc....but I hope you know how we feel and that these are fantasies.

Listening to your experience is one reason why I write as I do... most people will write about the rape experience you had, with the slaps and punches the terror....and the brutality. Personally it's not part of my fantasy. It exists and there is nothing wrong with writing about it...but I find nothing arousing in pain....

One Note about "My 10 %" It was never my intent to say 90% of people ENJOY what you describe...my statement was 90% of the people *I* have spoke to personally, made a statement of confusion as to WHY they felt what they felt. If someone was punching ME I do not think I'd be aroused, which is why I write that it's hard for me to suspend disbelief when someone is brutal...I much prefer a gentle restraint and a forcing...Which is, I believe, what you describe as loss of control. For *ME* I agree that's what really arouses me, the objectification and loss of control.

I am QUITE ashamed to say what you describe, the lack of encouragement to prosecute, the guy being a stud the woman being a slut, is EXACTLY what I have experienced (I also, as part of my job, make it my personal crusade, to be there for victims, encourage them and testify against their assaulter)

But I found it REALLY interesting that you like the power transfer and control because that is EXACTLY what I like about it.

Thank you SO much for contributing to the post, and I hope it will not disappoint you if I use some of what you have told me in my writing!
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This has been a very worthwhile exchange of ideas and suggestions. From you, LG and from all those posting. I too will try to incorporate what's been said here in my writing as well.
Follow this link to descriptions of my stories and easy links to them:

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Very well said Flirty.

You articulated the fantasy in the power play of this genre very well, and I agree that is primarily what is interesting or exciting about any peril scene. My main interest in pleasure or overt sexual stuff is only where it is used to disempower, or transfer power in a scene, and any of the sexualised stuff that follows that only really matters to me in so far as it's an expression of helplessness for a once mighty character. That's where the fantasy is for me.

Your personal experience is challenging stuff to read, but thanks so much for weighing in with it - it perfectly balances and punctuates that exchange. No pity or apologies, but you certainly have my respect. I hope nothing in this thread has come off as insensitive or flippant when we've referenced reality.

P.S Update coming your way Tuesday or Monday. It's a total BEAST.
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How to Write Fanfiction #13
Writing AROUND Acceptable User Policies (AUP)

Ok MOST if not ALL sites have adopted this…profound piece of literature. It is usually money driven, sometimes socially motivated. Before we deal with this subject there is one immutable fact you MUST understand.

THESE WEBSITES ARE RUN BY INDIVIDUALS. “BUCK” THEM AND THEY CAN AND WILL BAN YOU AND IT DOES NOT HAVE TO BE FAIR, THEIR SAND BOX THEIR RULES.

Ok that was the BAD news, the GOOD news is, there are SO many sights out there, you can likely find a new one. Or, if you kept your e-mail and pen name well separate from YOU, go get a new e-mail account, a new penname, and go back. Most sites only want to say they stood up for their morals and do not care any further.

Next the question arises, WHY would I WANT to write around an AUP? Well

1. It’s something that’s not been done (because it is supposedly banned)
2. It’s fun, come on a 14 or 15 year old boy desiring to see a naked women? NOOOO NOT realistic
3. It FITS the plot
4. Reveal the ridiculousness of restricting free speech with FICTIONAL characters

Ok, I group writing around the AUP under “Ultra taboo” for more than the obvious possible ban from a sight. Let’s look at what is typically restricted by AUP’s
1. Rape / Non-Consent
2. Pregnancy
3. Death / Snuff
4. Watersports (Urinating on yer partner)
5. Age play (Under age characters involved in sex)
6. Mutilation / gore
7. Bestiality

Some are sight specific, and there are MANY arguments. Thinks like
1. 18 is an arbitrary age to be “adult”
2. Burning an infant alive is more accepted then a 15 year old boy interested in a woman
3. Why would a white slaver CARE if his victim gets pregnant

In any case the remedy is the same, and that is avoiding specifics. This plays right into allowing your reader to view what THEY like best, and it also does something novel, it allows the reader to draw their own conclusions to make their OWN story, while you do the same.

Let’s take as an example, underage characters. Do NOT mention specific ages:
1. Instead of “the 14 year old boy” say “the young lad” or “The young man”
2. Refer to school, “The young man was summoned to the principal’s office” if anyone asks or challenges, well hey it’s a private school in my story and even though he graduated the administrator is called a principal”
3. Imply adult status early “The young lady was dropped off by her mother at her Job at Mc Donald’s” Hey, she’s not underage she just had no car…
In any case as a writer, you have one distinct advantage. Apparently Photography had some weird law that states you MUST identify the model by age (and I fully support that REAL underage people should NEVER be exploited) however as a WRITER, or ARTIST, you are making a completely FICTIONAL so no need to hold back. So long as you leave at least a question as to whether or not something against any AUP most admins will leave you alone.
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Site**. :-)
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Writing your Fanfic
#14
Writing things, you DON’T like, in a way you DO

Ok, were getting to the end of the high points of my series here, though by no means is this an exhaustive study, there is still plenty of ground to cover but this has been the most influential points to me.

Ok if you read the title here, you may ask, “Why in the world would I write something I DON’T like?” To answer that let us consider a few points

1) Drama and excitement come from differing cultures and beliefs, if everyone believes as you do…how can you make a realistic (believable) world and if everyone has the same beliefs, where does the conflict (or growth) come from

2) I am not asking you to FOCUS on plots you dislike, only to consider them as a way to add depth to your story. If you dislike Homosexuality, it’s unlikely you would choose to write a story about a romantic encounter between Batman and Superman


3) As authors have done throughout time, you can USE your dislike (or like) to make you point about the subject. For example, I find the arbitrary age of 18 to be a ridiculous measure of “mature” so I may take Hawkman, put him (as an adult mind) in a 8 year old body and have him active in a sexual encounter…gee how will you deal with THAT?

I have also found there are ways to write things I detest, in a way that I find HIGHLY arousing, let’s take for example, homosexuality. I am a guy IRL, I do not find another guy attractive in any way shape of form. I am also a dominant IRL. I find the act of dominating another extremely arousing. In the animal kingdom, it is common for a dominant (let’s say wolf) to go to a subordinate wolf (a beta or an omega) and mount the other male. It is the animal way to say...Look…I am top dog, I can do WHAT I want including using YOU as my bitch. For ME, if I take that into my story, and have Mirror Master, mesmerize (another fetish of mine…mind control) Kid Flash. He makes Kid Flash go to his knees and performing oral on MM, and just for fun MM uses that to have Kid Flash’s girlfriend believe Kid Flash is gay. She decides to go to bed with Mirror Master. Three “I like” kinks (Mind control, Domination and corruption) outweigh my dislike of male on male sex, AND I have included a new aspect in my story world.

Ok, a few loose ends to tie up here, there are MANY what is termed “deviant” personalities they exist, do not ignore them USE them

Do not allow the “pearly gates” to become a “Revolving Door” Marvel had this problem, they would kill off a character, and then 6 months or a year later, some miraculous contrivance would bring them back from the dead. Usually because they LOOKED like they were dead but were REALLY just badly injured and taken away by space aliens, or Time travel.

Death of a character is an EXTREMELY powerful plot device, and should not be taken lightly. Yes there CAN be a miraculous return… but it’s hard to do without “Cop out” being attached to it. My suggestion is, if you have a character die,

1. Have a new character arise, kinda like green lantern, if he dies, his ring searches for another worthy wielder
2. Have an offspring take over, makes delicious irony, if a villain, makes Wonder Woman a sex slave, kills her, and his own daughter by WW
takes up in her place, the rest of the world unaware of the change
3. Have the Villain himself take over AS the hero killed this can be for EITHER good OR nefarious plans
4. Believe in an afterlife? Capture the Soul itself NO paradise (hell) for YOU!
a. Place the soul in a child / elderly body
b. Destroy the Soul
c. Switch body’s WITH the Soul
d. Place the Soul in the body of a… (horse, cow sheep, griffin…)
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BMax wrote:Lordgriffin (and anyone else who wants to comment): How to do you think a writer should handle long term consequences (physical injury, mental and emotional illness, pregnancy, etc) or loss when writing a series of stories about a superheroine? If a story is a one-shot for a character, then having her suffer permanent effects at the end of the story is simpler. If the heroine has to return, ready for action, in story after story, I'm not sure how the writer deals with permanent consequences that result from repeated defeats by supervillains or criminals.

BMAX:

I must apologize, somehow I did not see,and reply to this EXCELLENT question.

There are MANY ways to deal with what you call the "long term consequences" The first, and I think the most appealing to me is, as a writer, to understand that long term consequences, does NOT have to mean Catastrophic consequences. To be simplistic, a heroine getting severely beaten, my be bruised, have broken bones, but if you do not write about him or her being brain damaged...then that heroine can RECOVER. Will she be the same? prob. not...but she can be MOSTLY the same. Perhaps she now is less likely to engauge in combat without back up...perhaps she completely leaves that criminal element alone... there are others out there she CAN deal with.

In the case of rape, she does not HAVE to be a total broken spirit, she may give birth to a beautiful child, become a wonderful mother, discover a new reason for keeping others safe. Your the writer, it is not beyond possibility that (ONE TIME) the heroine has a miscarriage... or do something REALLY shocking, she goes in and has an abortion, covert OR overt.

In short, each defeat, is going to affect our heroine...in both good AND bad way, thats a great hook for your fans,...to see HOW she will react to adversity. And lets not forget, the Heroin can also TRIUMPH, that will affect her too.

Sorry I did not reply sooner but I hope I get to hear what YOU think.

LG
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