A-Force: Marvel's all-female superheroine team

[Dogfish]

I don't think people are coming at it from a position of being owed diversity. They are coming at this saying, "Here is our money, this is what we want." and the comic producers are looking at the numbers and seeing that this is what they should be doing.

The business of who has had it worst in society over the course of history is another discussion and it's sort of moot. That sexism is ingrained in our culture is really sort of obvious though. I mean if you can't look around and see it I'm not entirely sure how to point it out to you.

The point of identifying groups when seeking equality is because, as I said, those groups already exist and to dismantle them they have to be acknowledged. Nobody is creating new groups, just pointing out the ones that people have been lucky or unlucky enough to find themselves in.

[shevek]

it is *obvious* that there is an sjw crusade against entertainment that doesn't meet the utopian third-waver agenda and the "progressive stack" (to borrow a term from a recent Sargon of Akkad video) hierarchy of oppression, and that it *is* having an effect on those industries..for example it got that Batgirl variant cover nixed and that's just the tip of the iceberg.

but this is demonstrably bollocks

We're onto what? 13th Marvel film and we've go no female characters of any substance, we've got no "minority" characters in anything other than vague sidekick roles. I mean, Samuel L Jackson is only Nick Fury because Mark MIller got pissed off at the bland lack of realism in avengers and changed the character. (what 2018 until a black lead? 2019 until a girl with some story? and these are kid's films)

I hear people saying "oh, this special interest group is besieging the world of comics" and honestly all I hear is "boo hoo hoo all I want is a constant stream of superman fighting lex luther and anyone who tries to do something different is a heretic"

I stand by my assertion that the root of this whole lashing out is that guys are squeezed from above but can't deal with that so they have to lash out anyone lower down the pile trying to scramble up, instead of making a temporary alliance of convenience.

Lionbadger, I already *explained * that the film industry is coming around slower to SJW-ism but as you demonstrate above, it is coming. It's slow because films cost a lot of money and wide audience appeal is paramount, rather than catering to special interests. Comics and TV are responding much quicker to sjw pressures because they are less costly and more nimble, plus they are much quicker to hire neo-hip producers/directors/editors who dictate the sjw agenda from the top down (whereas the movie industry is still mostly about staid executive types).

And honestly I'm not the one complaining about not enough Superman fighting Lex Luthor. Exactly with whom should us lovers of sexy costumes make an alliance of convenience with? (I'd be happy to find out!) "Squeezed from above"? That's if you believe the sjw nonsense about the "progressive stack" of hierarchy, which somehow places class and ability far below the politics of identity (race / gender / sexuality). Much of that (sorry Dogfish) has been disproven or overblown.

[Mr. X]

We're onto what? 13th Marvel film and we've go no female characters of any substance, we've got no "minority" characters in anything other than vague sidekick roles. I mean, Samuel L Jackson is only Nick Fury because Mark MIller got pissed off at the bland lack of realism in avengers and changed the character. (what 2018 until a black lead? 2019 until a girl with some story? and these are kid's films)

And we're back to things being community property. WHY exactly do they have to include diversity other than maybe more dollars? Japanese don't make sure there are X number of white men in their movies. And as for lack of good female characters... the moment you put one in there will be cries of sexism and no representation will make anyone happy. Same with minorities. Heck Zoey Saldana isn't balck enough to play a black woman.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/point/26203 ... 8.facebook

The black woman in the new Ghost Busters movie isn't good enough either apparently.

Heck look how hard its been to make a wonder woman tv show or movie. Every special interest group screams murder no matter how she's represented and if someone does appease the "offended ones" she's NOTHING like the character in the comics.

This happened with the new Marvel Avengers cartoon series. So since everyone complains about female characters from every angle what the cartoon got was a bland, storyless Black widow who just jumps in from time to time scoring perfect hits and that's all. No drama. No character development. Just a token girl all perfect and pristine.

[Heroine Addict]

We're onto what? 13th Marvel film and we've go no female characters of any substance, we've got no "minority" characters in anything other than vague sidekick roles. I mean, Samuel L Jackson is only Nick Fury because Mark MIller got pissed off at the bland lack of realism in avengers and changed the character. (what 2018 until a black lead? 2019 until a girl with some story? and these are kid's films)

And we're back to things being community property. WHY exactly do they have to include diversity other than maybe more dollars? Japanese don't make sure there are X number of white men in their movies. And as for lack of good female characters... the moment you put one in there will be cries of sexism and no representation will make anyone happy. Same with minorities. Heck Zoey Saldana isn't balck enough to play a black woman.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/point/26203 ... 8.facebook

The black woman in the new Ghost Busters movie isn't good enough either apparently.

Heck look how hard its been to make a wonder woman tv show or movie. Every special interest group screams murder no matter how she's represented and if someone does appease the "offended ones" she's NOTHING like the character in the comics.

This happened with the new Marvel Avengers cartoon series. So since everyone complains about female characters from every angle what the cartoon got was a bland, storyless Black widow who just jumps in from time to time scoring perfect hits and that's all. No drama. No character development. Just a token girl all perfect and pristine.

For someone who uses the term "the offended ones", you spend an awful lot of your time being offended. Is indignation more righteous when it comes from you?

This post is a little strange. Are you saying Marvel shouldn't even try to do anything other than white male superheroes? That the cultural mores of 50+ years ago should just be placed in the modern day unchanged? And all because you can't please all the SJWs all the time?

I see Rey (a woman) and Finn (a black guy) have been very well-received as the leads in the new Star Wars film. Were the SJWs pleased or displeased with The Force Awakens? People whining about the movie (from whatever ideological stance) appear to have been drowned-out by the overwhelmingly positive reaction.

[FallOutDweller]

First they came for the kids money, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a kid.

Then they came for the teenagers money, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a teen.

Then they came for the "Young Adults" money, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a "Young".

Then they came for my money — and there was no one left to speak for anybody elses money

because the people still speaking on the internet were not in the aimed lowest common denominator demographic ever

so the producers just said "FUCK OFF" and leave counting their money.

[Heroine Addict]

Not looking for immunity from criticism. I am looking for integrity from the people doing the criticizing. I am looking at the hypocrisy.

For there to be hypocrisy, you need to identify such behavior from the same specific people. Observing that some women want female modesty on a Spider-Woman cover while other women enjoy shirtless males on Arrow does not prove that women are hypocrites. This false dichotomy of what you believe "men" and "women" collectively want is extremely sexist to both groups.

That's fine IF the market is there. I am debating the attitude by some that they are OWED diversity. No one OWES them anything. And its a bit absurd to demand diversity from group A then ignore it from group B.

First off this is a whole nother discussion but suffice it to say the vast majority of men ALSO had no rights up until WW1. Men could not vote either, only property owners could vote. And women NEVER had to serve in military to get the vote.

Yes I believe your statement is false. If anything BOTH sexes practiced sexism in history. Both demanded roles from the other. There is no "skewed against women". All you are doing is confirming my point that social justice is just petty revenge. demanded roles from the other

You keep invoking this notion of a post-equality age in which white heterosexual males are now severely disadvantaged. In your view, at what point in history did women achieve the unfair advantage you now perceive? When did things swing too far the other way for your liking?

For that matter, when did ethnic minorities hit the sweet spot where you felt they had achieved equality? At what point in history do you feel things went too far and the ethnic minorities got an unfair advantage? Before Rosa Parks or after?

Let's not forget how you resent the fact someone can get fired for discriminating against LGBT people. At what point in history do you think the LGBT crowd started getting too good a deal? Should they have just been grateful for decriminalization of same-sex relations and stayed in the shadows thereafter? Or was even that too magnanimous?

Voila the community property argument... sorry but no. Make your own characters. You have the internet.

Except you're treating A-Force as community property. Right here. On this thread. Begrudging the very existence of an all-female team made up of largely ignored characters created for an apathetic audience of young boys in the 1970s.

Yup some mighty fine equality right there. Special groups with special rules... just exemplifies the concept of equality. That's why I think equality arguments are BS. Again you're just confirming the obvious bias that is out there. Group A must be diverse... group B can discriminate... and we call that equality.

You personally used special rules as an argument in this very post. When you stated that both sexes demanded roles from each other and there has never been a historical skew against women.

I am not the village mule. I am not a utility. I am not universal property. I am not obligated to anyone.

That's because you're an independent producer serving a niche market.

[FallOutDweller]

That's because you're an independent producer serving a niche market.

Excuse me, who are you calling "niche", Mr.X has a remarkable curriculum, renowned by his wide scope covering a immense variety of fetishes, sexual orientations, deviances and perverts. Calling him a "niche" artist is certainly an understatement.

And independent he is mostly not, he is a working class hardcore laboring dude with sometimes one too many bills to pay.

[Dogfish]

That's because you're an independent producer serving a niche market.

Excuse me, who are you calling "niche", Mr.X has a remarkable curriculum, renowned by his wide scope covering a immense variety of fetishes, sexual orientations, deviances and perverts. Calling him a "niche" artist is certainly an understatement.

And independent he is mostly not, he is a working class hardcore laboring dude with sometimes one too many bills to pay.

Independent as in self employed. Niche as in covering fetishes at all.

[Mr. X]

For someone who uses the term "the offended ones", you spend an awful lot of your time being offended. Is indignation more righteous when it comes from you?

You literally did not read what I posted.

[Mr. X]

For there to be hypocrisy, you need to identify such behavior from the same specific people. Observing that some women want female modesty on a Spider-Woman cover while other women enjoy shirtless males on Arrow does not prove that women are hypocrites. This false dichotomy of what you believe "men" and "women" collectively want is extremely sexist to both groups.

So then this also applies to men, right? Same rule? Or does this magically change now?

You keep invoking this notion of a post-equality age in which white heterosexual males are now severely disadvantaged. In your view, at what point in history did women achieve the unfair advantage you now perceive? When did things swing too far the other way for your liking?

For that matter, when did ethnic minorities hit the sweet spot where you felt they had achieved equality? At what point in history do you feel things went too far and the ethnic minorities got an unfair advantage? Before Rosa Parks or after?

Let's not forget how you resent the fact someone can get fired for discriminating against LGBT people. At what point in history do you think the LGBT crowd started getting too good a deal? Should they have just been grateful for decriminalization of same-sex relations and stayed in the shadows thereafter? Or was even that too magnanimous?

Strawman. I pointed out disagreeing can get someone fired.

Except you're treating A-Force as community property. Right here. On this thread. Begrudging the very existence of an all-female team made up of largely ignored characters created for an apathetic audience of young boys in the 1970s.

No I am applying the same rules. Its called integrity. If the rules do not apply then don't apply them on me. Its called integrity. You do agree if the rule applies to X it applies to Y?

You personally used special rules as an argument in this very post. When you stated that both sexes demanded roles from each other and there has never been a historical skew against women.

Absurd. How is that a special rule?

That's because you're an independent producer serving a niche market.

Again a special rule for me.

You sure go out of your way to dismiss stuff. Does that make it all go away now cause you came up with all these special case rules to dismiss things? How are you consistently applying rules and standards?

Do you agree that if a rule is applied it should be applied universally? If its wrong for some producers not to have diversity in their comics then shouldn't that apply to ALL producers who do not have diversity in their comics? Or does that not apply to the helpless little ladies? I believe that's called the sexism of lowered expectations. By the fact you are treating women with a different measure you are admitting that you think they are inferior and require different rules. So you don't think women can play by the same rules imposed on the rest of us? One group has to have diversity while another can have safe spaces?

[Imagineer]

No, rules should not be applied universally when all parties are not de facto on equal footing.

[Heroine Addict]

Has the League of Social Justice Warriors ever tried to force Mr X to produce a Mr Americana digital comic? He has freedom to produce as many titles as he wants with superheroines and not a single superhero.

Yet I don't see any complaints about the inequality of Mr X's "safe space". (The obvious reason being that there's not a significant market for digital comics featuring superheroes getting raped up the ass.)

[Mr. X]

Has the League of Social Justice Warriors ever tried to force Mr X to produce a Mr Americana digital comic? He has freedom to produce as many titles as he wants with superheroines and not a single superhero.

Yet I don't see any complaints about the inequality of Mr X's "safe space". (The obvious reason being that there's not a significant market for digital comics featuring superheroes getting raped up the ass.)

What is social justice other that stereotyping groups? How can social justice talk about individuals. If you practice social justice you ARE STEREOTYPING. How am I guilty for what someone did 100 years ago?

Do the rules apply equally or don't they?


The discussion was about A Force. Why can comics made by males be criticized for lack of diversity yet comics made by females can boast being exclusive to women? How are the rules being applied fairly?

[Heroine Addict]

You do realize that your own Ms Americana has her roots in a character who comes from a women-only land called Paradise Island? A "feminist paradise", so to speak.

As for rules applying equally, you obviously don't adhere to any "rules" about diversity in comics. Who enforces these "rules" anyway? Could it be businesses ultimately deciding for themselves?

[shevek]

Point is, Mr X., rules aren't being applied fairly. Or at least equally. Sjws would use the word "fair" entirely differently, accounting for vast centuries of history and making sure everyone knows that the West is terrible even though it brought us superheroes, porn and computers, and compared to that, Islam (for example) hasn't done anything since algebra and star-nomenclature and China hasn't done anything since fireworks and block printing 1000 years ago. Imagineer even said so, espousing the core sjw belief that oppressed individuals (and remember there's a hierarchy of oppression, so the rules don't even apply equally to the various categories of the oppressed, either) deserve special treatment and consideration above and beyond others, like the safe space on a public lawn where Concerned Student 1950 members were allowed to congregate and plan their next media move while Melissa Click brought some "muscle over here" and kept a young conservative photographer at bay.

As for the reasons why sjws haven't "forced" Mr X. to do anything, it's simply because they don't know about Mr. X. They've gotten close, imposing a myriad of rules on cosplay from severe paranoid rulebooks of no-touchy, to making sure no white person cosplays a character of color, to slut-shaming women who have boob windows, and so on. But the sjws haven't yet found out about the SHIP scene, thank bob. And I sincerely hope none of us are going to tell them, because if they find out there's a world where men (and women! we've got a bevy of strong/independent female producers posting here, though I don't know how many female consumers post here? might be interesting to find out...) enjoy such prurient and decadent pleasures, they will quash, harrass and doxx it to bits. Make no mistake, sjws enjoy fetishes, but only the politically-correct approved kind (like the kind of porn where the man always looks the woman in the eyes, always lets her lead the sexplay, and asks how she feels many times during the shoot..), and SHIP is definitely not on the PC list.

Also re the origins of Ms. Amerciana in Wonder Woman: the whole Marston saga is quite complex and nuanced. From what I understand he had great second-wave feminist leanings (the belief that putting lots of women in charge would make the Earth a better place is core 2nd wave belief) and a utopianist streak (his invention of the lie detector machine would obviously create a better, fairer world), but he was also apparently into BDSM, which is apparently the inspiration for why WW used to be put into so many compromising positions in her depictions up throught the 70s or so (and even on the TV show). I'd say WW had a multi-faceted existence anyway, going from WW II warrior queen to domestic housewife to second-wave feminist icon (an sjw for the 70s, when Western society still had some real civil rights problems) before becoming the superstrong, violent yet compassionate Greek goddess she is today. Am I basically on point about all that?

Also, HA, I'm pretty sure that the last time I looked at his SHC-linked pages, Mr X. had both black heroines and villainesses depicted in his comics.

[Mr. X]

You do realize that your own Ms Americana has her roots in a character who comes from a women-only land called Paradise Island? A "feminist paradise", so to speak.

As for rules applying equally, you obviously don't adhere to any "rules" about diversity in comics. Who enforces these "rules" anyway? Could it be businesses ultimately deciding for themselves?

I actually never established that history for MSA. If I did it was probably a long time ago. And so what. That's a strawman.

The question was why can a female comic producer make a comic JUST for women and exclude men but male comic producers MUST include diversity in their works.

Why is Spider Woman's butt so wrong but Arrow's naked chest OK?

Apparently there is no fairness here. Its people using fake moral causes to bully others.

[Heroine Addict]

For context, the original Secret Wars version of A-Force was set in the "feminist paradise" of Arcadia. It was an alternate universe. A "What if... there were no men?"

That universe is gone, apparently. So the new series focuses on a survivor of Arcadia known as the Singularity coming to the main Marvel universe to reassemble the A-Force team using the main canon versions of the characters.

The only thing exclusively female about it is that the team members are women. Otherwise, it's just a typical Marvel comic. I'm sure Marvel superheroes will guest star frequently in future issues.

The art style is like that of the cover in the opening post. She-Hulk and Medusa look very fine in their tight spandex.

[Mr. X]

The only thing exclusively female about it is that the team members are women. Otherwise, it's just a typical Marvel comic. I'm sure Marvel superheroes will guest star frequently in future issues.

Why can there be an all female squad but not an all male squad. Why is it OK to complain about lack of diversity when the team or writers are mostly men but then champion an all female team as this writers is doing for this book.

I WANT TO UNDERSTAND THE DOUBLE STANDARD. Stop defending something that is so blatantly a one sided thing. Its amazing watching you jump from lily pad to lily pad making up and contorting special rules for each case and group. Why can't men ALSO have their own safe spaces? Why can women have their own female only teams?

DO THE RULES APPLY UNIVERSALLY OR DON'T THEY? If they do not then why? and how is that fairness?

[Heroine Addict]

If the rules applied universally, there would be as many superheroines in the Marvel universe as there are superheroes. You know that the rules don't apply universally, as you're not too concerned that 13 Marvel superhero movies have given us just a couple of supporting superheroine characters.

So let's not pretend that men need to see an all-male group to redress a terrible injustice. The Marvel universe is a sausagefest.

Your grievance is that the group who have been grossly under-represented across many hundreds of Marvel titles for the last six decades are now being over-represented in one title. Really? Do you realize how petty that sounds?

[Mr. X]

If the rules applied universally, there would be as many superheroines in the Marvel universe as there are superheroes.

That is NOT an example of equality of rules. That's an example of equality of OUTCOMES.

If a group can be criticized for NOT having diversity shouldn't ALL GROUPS be criticized the same for NOT having diversity.

You know that the rules don't apply universally, as you're not too concerned that 13 Marvel superhero movies have given us just a couple of supporting superheroine characters.

That's equality of outcomes. And if that kind of equality is unattainable WTF belly ache about social justice when you flat out admit equality of outcomes is unattainable. You are arguing a strawman. Why can one group be criticized for lack of a diversity and another group cannot? Want equality of outcomes? Burn it all down and make all the trees equal with a saw.

So let's not pretend that men need to see an all-male group to redress a terrible injustice. The Marvel universe is a sausagefest.

WTF "terrible injustice"? Are you seriously blaming men today for something that happened in the past cause people who were the same gender did something? Really? How is that not petty revenge and how is that not grouping people into categories?

Do the rules apply universally?

Your grievance is that the group who have been grossly under-represented across many hundreds of Marvel titles for the last six decades are now being over-represented in one title.

No my greivance is that what men do is not a public utility that everyone "gets a slice of the pie" and that if its OK to complain about one group lacking diversity then its OK to complain another group lacks diversity.

If its OK for women to have a women's only book then there is NO ISSUE with men having a male only book.

Again why can we demand one group cater to diversity and everyone else gets their own special safe place? How is what men do a universally owned property?

And as you pointed out, there are no real all male teams anyway so its clear MEN are obeying the diversity call far more than this female author? Where's the token male in that super team?

Really? Do you realize how petty that sounds?

As opposed to people constantly complaining about how when men make something there isn't enough XYZ people represented? How was complaining about Spider Woman's butt NOT petty? Or the Batgirl cover with Joker? How was that not petty? Or are you once more going to tell us all another set of contrived special case rules that magically make those issues different?

Do the rules apply universally? If its OK to complain about lack of diversity in male material then clearly it should be OK to complain when a woman makes a book about an all female only team.

I think anyone should be able to make what they like and no group is obligated to provide for others. Do you? If so that ends the discussion. But that means ALL criticisms of male material are unfounded and petty.

How do you practice social justice without stereotyping and generalizing and categorizing?

[FallOutDweller]

Somebody please lock this thread right now and declare Mr.X the righteous winner of this debate and give him the Peril Party Nomination for candidacy as President of the United States in the Galaxy of Terror.

[Heroine Addict]

Marvel would never do an all-male team. Oh, wait a minute...

"The Illuminati, Marvel's most powerful and secretive team, must reassemble to stand against interdimensional incursions! Parallel Earths are beginning to collide, destroying one or both worlds -and when Black Panther, Iron Man, Dr. Strange, Black Bolt, Mr. Fantastic, Sub-Mariner and Beast take on the task of preserving their planet, they soon realize that they must destroy countless others."

[Mr. X]

Marvel would never do an all-male team. Oh, wait a minute...

Can you name a male-only team (four or more superheroes in an ongoing series) from the last thirty years? The only one that springs immediately to mind is the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and they're not humanoid.

If you're talking about how teams were selected up until the modern age, then the characters were mostly male as the comics were bought almost exclusively by young males. These days, most comics are bought by adults and approximately half the audience is female.

Is this not your post Heroine Addict? YOU were saying there weren't any all male teams.

Ok lets go with these two. Is it then OK to criticize these titles form not being diverse and not having women? If so is it OK to criticize and all female title for not having men?

[Femina]

So... so just to get this straight, there's a huge argumentative fuss occurring about an all female super heroine team being somehow sexist on this website about the enjoyment of super heroines in peril. Mathematically speaking, doesn't a team of all female supers exponentially increase the opportunities for the sorts of things this website froths at the mouth for to occur?

*sigh* fine

Look, the fact of the matter is there ARE already entire teams made up of males. So equality of outcomes where character sex is concerned. Met. Where race is concerned? Where height is concerned, and where countless other crap is concerned no, but in as far as the question of the sex of characters portrayed on film Equality of Outcomes is firmly, read FIRMLY in the males court to rectify and this one comic staring a team of females is hardly anything to soil your boxers over. I'm not decrying anyone for this problem, the world was once a very different place and as such everyone alive grew up assuming this balance was normal. I'm not indicating that it is anyone's particular fault that it is a problem, since none of us were alive when the groundwork was laid, but I am indicating that denying that there is or ever was a problem at all WHERE GENDER IS CONCERNED because you've found a technicality to argue is a blind man's fantasy. An argument very well may need to be made concerning race, age, mustaches and alcoholics as well and there's no reason these arguments shouldn't be made, but where this forums topic is concearned, there is simply no problem whatsoever with an all female super heroine team unless a person individually can't stand it, which says more about a person than it does about an issue.

Regardless, Equality of outcomes is the biggest load of bs argument I've ever heard. Equality of outcomes CAN be met. The primary Star Wars Saga basically stars a female now. Wonder woman is coming out, Captain Marvel is planned, Ant Man & the Wasp has been planned as a weird half measure between now and Captain Marvel. So, the GROUNDWORK is already being laid because people are growing up and not ignoring the issues anymore, but If any person honestly can't see the problems of the past inherent in having dozens of superhero films in the world staring males, and finally FINALLY only now having 2 in the works that will solely star females, there's absolutely nothing that can get through to them. They will just continue to sit and complain that 'these punk kids' keep changing their minds about what they want and how good it used to be in the old days when they didn't have to share their fruit punch.

[Bert]

"Why can't men ALSO have their own safe spaces? Why can women have their own female only teams? "

Is that really what this is all about? You are vexed about the burning inequality of a female only superhero team? Maybe comic book companies know that women make up only a small percentage of their readers and want to increase their readership by publishing titles that appeal more to women? Listening to you decry the unfairness to men of that choice is actually really lame and annoying. Go read a home economics textbook from the 1950's. It's been a male dominated world for, well, ever. The fact that women have made some real strides towards equality over the past decades is a good thing.

Are there people who go too far with the SJW thing? Of course there are. There are people who go too far with every single 'thing" there is. The thing is, right now you are one of them with this defending poor, aggrieved men crusade you are on. There are far more men than women superheros, comics writers, artists, company executives, etc., etc. The superhero world is heavily male dominated, so it doesn't look good on you trying to argue that men are being treated unfairly. Even if it is a little bit true, women are still being treated MORE unfairly by being under-represented in every aspect of the business.

[Femina]

this is a double post that occured somehow. Delete it.

[Mr. X]

but If any person honestly can't see the problems of the past inherent in having dozens of superhero films in the world staring males, and finally FINALLY only now having 2 in the works that will solely star females, there's absolutely nothing that can get through to them. They will just continue to sit and complain that 'these punk kids' keep changing their minds about what they want and how good it used to be in the old days when they didn't have to share their fruit punch.

Ok so why is that bad? Why are movie makers obligated to cater to EVERYONE when they make a movie? How are movies public property and how are movie makers a utility everyone has a say in?

The vast vast majority of romance novels are written for a female audience. Should we belly ache and demand more male romance novels? Do we assume romance novel writers are a universal public utility?

I don't care there are more superheroine movies/shows. What I care about are the people complaining about a lack of diversity when men make something then use a different set of rules for women. And complaining so much they basically wreck things.

Again the Ghost Buster movie is being attacked by these people. The Zoe Saldano movies is being attacked cause she's "not black enough". Its INSANE.

If you cannot see this constant double standard whining isn't reeking havoc in movies, TV shows and games and comics then there is nothing that can get through to you.

they didn't have to share their fruit punch.

Why must I share my fruit punch. You're an adult. Buy your own. When did my fruit punch become public property that must be shared?

[Bert]

"Somebody please lock this thread right now and declare Mr.X the righteous winner of this debate and give him the Peril Party Nomination for candidacy as President of the United States in the Galaxy of Terror."

Translation - "Pass the popcorn."

This translation is offered as a free service by the "Yeah, FOD is one strange cat, but more misunderstood than evil" society.

[Heroine Addict]

Marvel would never do an all-male team. Oh, wait a minute...

Can you name a male-only team (four or more superheroes in an ongoing series) from the last thirty years? The only one that springs immediately to mind is the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and they're not humanoid.

If you're talking about how teams were selected up until the modern age, then the characters were mostly male as the comics were bought almost exclusively by young males. These days, most comics are bought by adults and approximately half the audience is female.

Is this not your post Heroine Addict? YOU were saying there weren't any all male teams.

Ok lets go with these two. Is it then OK to criticize these titles form not being diverse and not having women? If so is it OK to criticize and all female title for not having men?

I must admit, I had to Google for an all-male Marvel team. Interestingly, the one I found is heavy in weirdy-beardy types and older mentor heroes, rather than young studs.

Imagine the outcry on here if there was an all-female team that looked like Meryl Streep and Dame Judi Dench.

[Femina]

Ok so why is that bad? Why are movie makers obligated to cater to EVERYONE when they make a movie? How are movies public property and how are movie makers a utility everyone has a say in?

They aren't individually. It's a socual issue, not an individual one. The reason that SOCIALLY we should at least eventually be obligated to everyone is a simple enough answer. It's because those people exist. It doesn't take more than a small prodding of empathy to at least put yourself in the place of someone who doesn't have the overabundance of options that you have. Women exist, and we WANT to see movies abut superheroines. THAT is why they should be allowed to see movies about them, and that is why it shouldn't BOTHER you so much that there is a comic book catering to them.

The vast vast majority of romance novels are written for a female audience. Should be belly ache and demand more male comics? Do we assume romance novel writers are a universal public utility?

Yes but do you have any interest in romance novels? If you do, you should damn well speak up and ask those authors to consider you. There's no reason you shouldn't! This isn't a vaccume, it isn't 'romance novels for women, and comic books for men' that isn't the world we've lived in for a very long time.

I don't care there are more superheroine movies/shows. What I care about are the people complaining about a lack of diversity when men make something then use a different set of rules for women. And complaining so much they basically wreck things.

I obviously can't make any kind of argument to a person about their preferences. As I said in my previous post, I believe this says more about an individual than it does about an issue. Whether those things are good, bad, or amoral are up for other individuals to make up their minds about, all I can say is that I disagree with you, I don't feel that the complaining has wrecked anything because I'm finally getting a Captain Marvel movie... eventually.

Again the Ghost Buster movie is being attacked by these people. The Zoe Saldano movies is being attacked cause she's "not black enough". Its INSANE.

If you cannot see this constant double standard whining isn't reeking havoc in movies, TV shows and games and comics then there is nothing that can get through to you.

That's because the truth is usually that it isn't a double standard, it only seems to be from a certain point of view. It isn't a double standard for a woman to want more action movies about women, of for a black man to want more representation about black man, it isn't a double standard because there are already an abundance of films and shows that star those more privileged for the more privileged. It's not a double standard because there is an imbalance. So it isn't a double standard when white men can't complain about it an imbalance of action films staring white men. They can't complain about an imbalance because they don't have anything to complain about, the seesaw is stacked very heavily in their favor.

I... the less said about the new Ghost Buster movie though, I think, the better. No one is really asking for this are they?

Why must I share my fruit punch. You're an adult. Buy your own. When did my fruit punch become public property that must be shared?

But you see, in this analogy, the problem is they aren't selling fruit punch in flavors that don't taste like bile to me, and since we all have to live in this fruit punch factory you're the only one thats enjoying himself.

[Mr. X]

They aren't individually. It's a socual issue, not an individual one. The reason that SOCIALLY we should at least eventually be obligated to everyone is a simple enough answer. It's because those people exist. It doesn't take more than a small prodding of empathy to at least put yourself in the place of someone who doesn't have the overabundance of options that you have. Women exist, and we WANT to see movies abut superheroines. THAT is why they should be allowed to see movies about them, and that is why it shouldn't BOTHER you so much that there is a comic book catering to them.

It doesn't bother me a comic is dedicated to women. It bothers me when people complain something is dedicated to men. Merely existing does not warrant that one group and ONLY one group is obligated to provide for everyone else. If I build a house you don't get 50% just cause you exist.

Yes but do you have any interest in romance novels? If you do, you should damn well speak up and ask those authors to consider you. There's no reason you shouldn't! This isn't a vaccume, it isn't 'romance novels for women, and comic books for men' that isn't the world we've lived in for a very long time.

I accept I have some interests and women have some interests. I don't demand the romance novel make romance novels for men when I won't read them merely based on bullshit quotas. If the demand is for comics to cater to women shouldn't out of fairness the same complainers demand romance novels include men? Or is this just about whiny bitches using fake moral causes to just 'get stuff". If this is just complaining to get something then fine, call it that. But don't gift wrap it as some bull social justice, fairness moral high ground.

I obviously can't make any kind of argument to a person about their preferences. As I said in my previous post, I believe this says more about an individual than it does about an issue. Whether those things are good, bad, or amoral are up for other individuals to make up their minds about, all I can say is that I disagree with you, I don't feel that the complaining has wrecked anything because I'm finally getting a Captain Marvel movie... eventually.

Social justice can never be about the individual. There is a huge difference between asking for inclusion and screaming social justice. Complaining has wrecked a lot of things especially anything made with minorities and women. Tooke forever for a WW movie cause complainers all demanded how a woman SHOULD be. Ghost busters attacked by the same SJ whiners about blackness and women's roles. Yeah they peed in the punch bowl alright. No matter what you produce someone like Sarkesian cries sexism.

That's because the truth is usually that it isn't a double standard, it only seems to be from a certain point of view. It isn't a double standard for a woman to want a show about women, of for a black man to want a show about a black man and to speak up their minds about it because there are already an abundance of shows that star white men for white men. It's not a double standard because there's an imbalance. So it isn't a double standard when white men can't complain about it. They can't complain about it because they don't have anything to complain about... apologies for using 'white men' so much in this paragraph. It's just the most optimal term.

Yet white men cannot have a show for white men. That's the point. Show one show advertised for white men. One? One show bragging about how its a safe space for white men. All general programming has been far more inclusive than specific programming. There is WE, Oxygen, Lifetime, Univision, Telemundo, ION, BET, UPN and many networks that cater to demographics like women, gays, blacks, hispanics. Name one network dedicated to whites. And NO you cannot just declare all programming is white. That's bunk and I can easily shatter that.

But you see, in this analogy, the problem is they aren't selling fruit punch in flavors that don't taste like bile to me, and since we all have to live in this fruit punch factory you're the only one thats enjoying himself.

Then make your own flavors. You're NOT locked in a factory nor is anything a monopoly. By all means let EVERYONE make what they want. I am not a public utility. Stop thinking everything is universally owned property. If I build a castle you don't get 50% cause you showed up with one brick.

[Femina]

It doesn't bother me a comic is dedicated to women. It bothers me when people complain something is dedicated to men. Merely existing does not warrant that one group and ONLY one group is obligated to provide for everyone else. If I build a house you don't get 50% just cause you exist.

No but you don't get to complain either when someone does build a house for those people because those people are sleeping outside in the rain. If we're 100% fair, we have to accept that opportunities for 'making our own houses' don't come up for everybody. Female directors are consistently fired by male producers who don't feel they are making the movies the producers want. So you can't throw out a blanket statement that no one is trying to build their own houses. The fact is that the lumber company sells to you and a select group first, and everyone else gets the scraps.

I accept I have some interests and women have some interests. I don't demand the romance novel make romance novels for men when I won't read them merely based on bullshit quotas. If the demand is for comics to cater to women shouldn't out of fairness the same complainers demand romance novels include men? Or is this just about whiny bitches using fake moral causes to just 'get stuff". If this is just complaining to get something then fine, call it that. But don't gift wrap it as some bull social justice, fairness moral high ground.

No, you BELIEVE that some have some interests and women have some interests. Very very very often women have the same interests as you, even when those interests are something as bizarre as SHiP, we wouldn't be having this conversation if that weren't true. There EXISTS demand for comics that cater to women, there exists none or at least little enough for men that want romance novels. I couldn't care less about romance novels. If everyone had to fight for everything, no one would fight for anything. Don't act like there has ever been a war worth fighting that wasn't about very specific things. Apathy isn't the answer.

Social justice can never be about the individual. There is a huge difference between asking for inclusion and screaming social justice. Complaining has wrecked a lot of things especially anything made with minorities and women. Tooke forever for a WW movie cause complainers all demanded how a woman SHOULD be. Ghost busters attacked by the same SJ whiners about blackness and women's roles. Yeah they peed in the punch bowl alright. No matter what you produce someone like Sarkesian cries sexism.

Sometimes I think the people who cry 'social justice warrior' forget that the inverse is 'Social INjustice warrior.' When a persons very real cry for social justice is merely written off as complaining 90% of the time by the people who might otherwise listen because the people who don't WANT to listen cry 'Social Justice Warrior' and have managed to make that phrase a derogatory slur that causes others to tune out than it's just as big a problem as 'complaining' ruining a few things. WW took forever to make because there was always a producer somewhere who didn't want to back it because they thought a female lead superflick was too risky. Sarkesian be damned. A minority of hypocritical soldiers doesn't make an army's intentions something else, and you don't get to write off half of the world because you didn't like or were even offended by, what less than 1% of that half had to say. Not if you want to ARGUE about it.

Yet white men cannot have a show for white men. That's the point. Show one show advertised for white men. One? One show bragging about how its a safe space for white men. All general programming has been far more inclusive than specific programming. There is WE, Oxygen, Lifetime, Univision, Telemundo, ION, BET, UPN and many networks that cater to demographics like women, gays, blacks, hispanics. Name one network dedicated to whites. And NO you cannot just declare all programming is white. That's bunk and I can easily shatter that.

Yes they can and they DO. THAT'S the point! Grandfathered, Anger Management... shit the list goes on for so long there's almost no POINT in listing them because we would be here for hours while we all toiled over Wikipedia to make our points! Men DO have shows advertised to them, there isn't some Grand Conspiracy that you seem to see whereby only women and black people are being advertised to anylonger because that's simply not frigging true. SpikeTV, G4 back in the day, any freaking sports channel. Men have channels that are advertised TO men, this argument was never about African Americans, (who situationally have more to complain about than white women do in most circles) it was always about the A-Force and therefore about gender equality. So let's try and keep it about that or we'll be circling the drain of arguments for eternity. Like I said before, if everybody had to fight for EVERYTHING, nobody would fight for anything, and dimes to dollars says you are no different, you sure are fighting very hard AGAINST gender equality in this argument to be throwing out these 'promote everything or support nothing' arguments.

Then make your own flavors. You're NOT locked in a factory nor is anything a monopoly. By all means let EVERYONE make what they want. I am not a public utility. Stop thinking everything is universally owned property. If I build a castle you don't get 50% cause you showed up with one brick.

I do make my own flavors. I use Daz since poser flopped on my laptop recently. My computer isn't strong enough to pull of the sorts of scenes and fun that you've got in your poser comics, but I do. I also write, just on an ordinary base of time I usually just write and pose for myself and my own circle of friends. That doesn't mean that I can't empathize with those who don't or more distressingly CAN'T. YOU didn't build the castle, Stan Lee and a hundred thousand others did and they decided to sell bricks to us. It's time for you to either close your doors and windows or else except that those bricks are going to be sold where they will, and those who buy them are going to ask for bricks that are more in line with what they want. Because by your own logic, if you are willing to fight this hard against it, you should be willing to fight just as hard for it right?

[Blx]

And here my reply was simply going to be that I hoped that there would be knockouts in this new comic.

[Femina]

And here my reply was simply going to be that I hoped that there would be knockouts in this new comic.

A far more enjoyable conversation if you ask me.

[Camvoy]

I liked that part where all these superheroines teamed up and fought villains.

[lionbadger]

[shevek]

"This argument was never about African Americans, (who situationally have more to complain about than white women do in most circles) it was always about the A-Force and therefore about gender equality."

I think we're still having an interesting discussion...but I must say that I'd like to go back to my original point about A-Force, which was that yes, it's one of the few all-female teams in comics right now (I think the group of heroines coalescing around Batgirl, whether or not they're currently called Birds of Prey, qualifies as another) and there's nothing inherently wrong with that - in fact, there's something very right. But the way the team is presented is stereotypical of the way social justice warriors want comics to look like. If SJWs had their way, all comics would either look like the way A-Force is presented, or probably even tamer, because they don't just want to tell entertaining stories - they have an activist agenda (diversity, fat-positive, no triggering, etc.) to change society.

And all of that social justice energy is just about to hit the scene now. (or it's been building for the past couple years or so).

Exhibit A, the new Valiant title that just started coming in January, Faith.
http://www.hitfix.com/harpy/new-series- ... status-quo



Exhibit B, Lumberjanes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lumberjanes (apparently a live action adapatation is coming soon)



Exhibit C, My So-Called Secret Identity. http://www.mysocalledsecretidentity.com/aboutcat



Believe me, the flood is coming....

[Femina]

Well, I would have to say that it is about blacks and pretty much *any* minority that the "progressive stack" considers to be oppressed..because third-wave feminism dictates that it can never just be about women, it's *always* intersectional.

By which I mean the discussion of oppressed peoples in this very particular forum topic that is 'A-Force: Marvel's all-female superheroine team' was never about other minorities and as such it makes more sense and requires less time for everyone involved to make their statements and points without writing an essay on the world over of oppressed peoples. Like I said before, the arguments SHOULD be made, but as they aren't in line with the topic of THIS discussion, it falls under the 'promote everything' or 'support nothing' fallacy. Example: When you argued your points in debate class over the pros and cons of cheap cigarettes, it made perfect sense to include a few tidbits comparing the issues with alcohol addiction, but you sure as shit didn't focus your report around the drunks because you are SUPPOSED to be talking about cigarettes.

Also, you mentioned the idea of females within the SHIP fanbase. I assume there are some (you're not female, are you Viridian? never came across to me as one), and there's no reason to style this forum as a "male safe space"...it's just a haven (so far, at least, as long as it doesn't get attacked from the outside) for people interested in the fetish of peril & sex with SHs, regardless of gender. But...I think it would be very interesting to know exactly how many females are members on the forum, and how many regularly post as well (not counting producers - we know who those are already). Would anyone mind if a poll was taken? (Hypnotic? Tallyho?)

Well then it should maybe be expressed to you that your assuming as to what I come across as holds no bearing in fact. I am female, I've expressed as much in my posts on this very page, I just don't make a big fuss out of it because it usually doesn't fucking matter. What I come across to you as means literally NOTHING except that you assumed I was male for whatever reasons you chose. To clarify as to why i am here, I have a power fantasy whereby I identify with powerful women (read: superheroines) who have that power stripped from them against their own power. Read from THAT what you'd like, whether it makes me a healthy well rounded human or a weirdo, I don't really care. It doesn't change how I feel women should be represented outside of my own bizziare fetishes. I never called this place a 'male safe space' because I don't see it as one. I see it as a 'SHiP fetish' safe place, and it's annoying beyond reason that here of all places, anyone should put up a ginormous (and frankly ridiculous) fuss over a comic book staring an all female team and force everyone to fall back to their battle lines in the 'Feminist front.'

Thank you, thank you everyone, what a great time we're having right?

I think we're still having an interesting discussion...but I must say that I'd like to go back to my original point about A-Force, which was that yes, it's one of the few all-female teams in comics right now (I think the group of heroines coalescing around Batgirl, whether or not they're currently called Birds of Prey, qualifies as another) and there's nothing inherently wrong with that - in fact, there's something very right. But the way the team is presented is stereotypical of the way social justice warriors want comics to look like. If SJWs had their way, all comics would either look like the way A-Force is presented, or probably even tamer, because they don't just want to tell entertaining stories - they have an activist agenda (diversity, fat-positive, no triggering, etc.) to change society.

So what!? Progress begins with activism. That's just the way it is. You don't get to have the 'comfortable association' of a concept well born in the public minds without first having to lay the groundwork for it. Right now, our female centered comics are going to be feminist and that's because there had to be an active FIGHT by the feminists to put it there. Do you really think that if no fuss had ever been made the A-Force would ever exist? No, it wouldn't. It'd be the next hulk series, or another Avengers book, but without the fuss it sure as hell isn't a female centric team, it would be just another female minority team in a long string of female minority teams. Once these comics are common place, once the battles are over and the public has calmed down THAT'S when people are comfortable enough to just let whatever comes slide NOT before, while people are worried about the damage they may inflict on their own cause.

And all of that social justice energy is just about to hit the scene now. (or it's been building for the past couple years or so).


*Various exhibits - see above post

There's no flood! There's always been comics like that! Superboy was in jeans and a t-shirt for YEARS and nobody whined that he wasn't wearing a supersuit! These are comics FOR the sorts of women who want to read them. Occasionally they'll intersect in places we don't like, such as with Batgirl and Spiderwoman, but that's life. Occasionally we have to deal with disappointments, but there are ALWAYS going to be alternatives. These examples are all graphic novels that are really only dabbled into the superhero scene because that's what producers believe have to be in their comic books to sell. They don't mean Supergirl is going to suddenly vanish into pants, hell DC had implemented a new 'all pants' rule into the new 52 which Supergirl seemed to completely ignore wholesale by even ditching her SKIRT. There's room in the world for more than one perspective and one design from everyone who lives. Styles come and go, its human nature. There are women in the world who like to be sexy, and one day if the environment would cease to be be so hostile on ALL fronts (it takes TWO to fight) we'll feel comfortable enough to sit up and draw our own comic books and speak our own minds.

That day isn't today, as discussions such as this one are all to evident of.

[Femina]

I really need to stop accidentally hitting 'quote' instead of edit. Please delete this. I appologize for the extra work.

[Heroine Addict]

Believe me, the flood is coming....

Those titles don't really appeal to me, but it's fine for them to exist alongside more traditional comics. I don't believe for a second that superheroines and superheroes are about to be usurped by cartoony comics about angsty young women. Why would they be?

It's not as if the publication of Lumberjanes automatically necessitates the cancellation of Daredevil. The two things are not in competition with each other.

I'm not sure what point you're making here? It seems you begrudge the very existence of those titles because you see it as some sort of threat to the superheroes whose films and TV shows are currently making a shitload of money for the parent companies Disney and Warner Bros. As if anything aimed at women is somehow encroaching on your territory and threatening the very existence of your entertainment choices.

Just look at the ubiquity of superheroes in comics, movies, TV and digital media. As a fan of this genre, you are better served now than you have been at any time in history. I hear you can even buy superheroine porn!

[Femina]

I mean My GOD what can we possibly gain on a SHiP website about an all female superteam!?

Oh yeah THIS



THIS is what we should be talking about on this forum! Not what AForce means in the feminist landscape.

[Heroine Addict]

Hmmm... Too many women in that picture, ViridianIV.




That's better!

[Philo Hunter]

Believe me, the flood is coming....

First off, I actively read one of those and the other two look amazing. I really want to come in saying "Fuck right off for telling me to fuck off for having different tastes then you," but I feel somehow that reaction would be looked at.

I really REALLY does sound like you and MR. X are bitching that not every comic is exactly what you want to see. And you know what? I don't even care that you didn't say that. Because you both have been spending this whole discussion putting words into everyone else mouths, and quoting vague feminists movements instead of the individuals talking with you.

And the whole "I don't like this this, it's to SJW-ee for me to get off to/enjoy" argument is just STUPID. Main stream comics, like ALL comic that aren't explicitly porn comics aren't supposed to be overly sexualized and full of pictures and situations we can jerk off too. And ever since the internet made it so comics that explicitly show those situations can exist and are easily accessible, mainstream comics have needed to pander to us pervos even less. Newsflash: there is a growing majority of people who read comics for the comics sake, not the kink sake. Those of us into hte kink can easily get that kink somewhere else.

Sometimes it makes me sad that the vast majority of people like to see established characters used in stories and videos. Especially the DC characters, for whatever reason. I used to think it was lazy writing, people just taking a short cut. Personally, I use and create original characters in the comics and ebooks I make cause I don't get anything positive from seeing characters I love and identify with sexually assaulted and used. I have a CLEAR divide from my porn filled fun times and my normal, everyday comic reading and enjoying time. But maybe that puts me in a definite minority?

[Philo Hunter]

I mean My GOD what can we possibly gain on a SHiP website about an all female superteam!?

Oh yeah THIS



THIS is what we should be talking about on this forum! Not what AForce means in the feminist landscape.

I know this it a total non sequitur, but it looks Like She-Hulk's boot funk is grossing Elektra out, even while she's unconscious.

[Femina]

Hey I just noticed something about that A-Force group peril cover... why is Shulkie so darn THIN in that image? She's the 'She-HULK' not the 'Green Skinned Alien of Proportional Size and Posture as Everyone Else'

[Philo Hunter]

Hey I just noticed something about that A-Force group peril cover... why is Shulkie so darn THIN in that image? She's the 'She-HULK' not the 'Green Skinned Alien of Proportional Size and Posture as Everyone Else'

It's pretty frequent for her to be drawn that way, where her "strength" is shown more through her height and toned body rather than, you know, hulk like muscles. I've never much cared for it, but its content enough that I don't really notice it much anymore.

[Imagineer]

The most recent 12-issue run of She-Hulk had her bulk up when she transformed, enough that it ruined suits. Javier Pulido's offputting art aside, I liked the way it was handled. The stories were good too -- Jen leaves the big law firm she's been working for and starts her own practice. Hellcat, Ant-Man, and Steve Rogers make appearances.

[Heroine Addict]

I'm pretty concerned about She-Hulk being at the top of that pile. Surely her massive weight would be crushing the other women?

[Philo Hunter]

The most recent 12-issue run of She-Hulk had her bulk up when she transformed, enough that it ruined suits. Javier Pulido's offputting art aside, I liked the way it was handled. The stories were good too -- Jen leaves the big law firm she's been working for and starts her own practice. Hellcat, Ant-Man, and Steve Rogers make appearances.

Damn, that sounds hella fun. Need to see if its out in TPB yet (I read all my stuff that way). Was the run just called She-Hulk?

[Imagineer]

Yes, it's in TPB. I think the run ended in January 2015.