Doctor Who as a heroine?

[Dazzle1]

Hasn't every female-led cop show ever made dealt with the heroine being second-guessed by her colleagues, including her subordinates? Don't Supergirl's friends and colleagues get in her face every week and tell her she's wrong about something?

If a heroine takes too much criticism and gets defeated too often, she's considered weak. (Just look at the Supergirl threads.) If a heroine is too skilled and hardly ever receives or requires criticism and help, she's a "Mary Sue". No representation is going to please everyone.

Having said that, Clara Oswold was a massive Mary Sue. And possibly an indication of how Steven Moffat would write a female Doctor. Fortunately, he won't be writing for the next Doctor.

Lets look at ST Voyager no one except Tuvok who was much more experienced was second guessed disrespectfully

Cops show a little different dynamic

But can you imagine a female Doctor, being corrected by a male version of Romana or River or tolerating a male shrew like Tegan or Donna Noble.

[Dogfish]

The big hope surely has to be that the show gets as far away from Moffat's body of work on the series as possible, it was crap. Say there was a gas leak on the Tardia and whoever plays the Doctor next dreamed it all. If that happens maybe we can get something good.

[Femina]

I hate to agree but, I really think Moffat brought out his 'Doctor Who' swan song around season six, with the whole time traveling/universe unraveling finale that was actually intricate and tied into the whole season (as opposed to the Deus ex Machina's that have littered the show over the past few seasons) You can see it in Sherlock as well. Once you've told your best stories, well, lightning isn't in the bottle forever. Maybe you get another great idea down the line and maybe you don't, but you've still got to make a paycheck... I actually really like Moffat and really loved his work a decade or so ago, and don't begrudge him continuing to make money for his work... but yes, it could nevertheless be refreshing to get someone elses take and see their best ideas.


Or we could wind up with a total hack... only time will tell.

[Heroine Addict]

Tilda Swinton is being tipped as a likely contender.

http://metro.co.uk/2017/02/17/who-is-ti ... r-6454512/

She's certainly an international name. Although her being such a chameleon (or character actress) makes it hard to predict how she'd play the Doctor.

[Heroine Addict]

The bookmakers have been taking a lot of bets for Fleabag star Phoebe Waller-Bridge in the last few days, slashing her odds to 2/1.

http://www.standard.co.uk/showbiz/celeb ... 02556.html
http://www.denofgeek.com/uk/tv/doctor-w ... -favourite

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYmENGPlNMk

And here she is in a compilation of clips from How Not to Live Your Life.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGcniS7POlw

It could just be speculative betting on a rising star. However, Matt Smith and Peter Capaldi both had surges in bets shortly before their announcements.

Phoebe's currently shooting the Han Solo spin-off.

[Dazzle1]

The big hope surely has to be that the show gets as far away from Moffat's body of work on the series as possible, it was crap. Say there was a gas leak on the Tardia and whoever plays the Doctor next dreamed it all. If that happens maybe we can get something good.

I agree, we need to get someone who can bring a Letts/Dicks/Nation feel back to DW

For those who don't know they were 3 of the key players in Classic Who, Nation came up with the Daleks

The scary ones, not the Power Ranger ones

[patmac4]

this is the one big thing that has being on going for years the next doctor

for me it's not should be but be could

female black asian american or what ever.

my only main things is it must be someone who is deaicated to role and not in it to mak their career. also not a gimark by the bbc to make more money.

[Heroine Addict]

New Doctor to be announced on Sunday. Jodie Whittaker (from Broadchurch, Black Mirror and Attack the Block) is being widely reported as a likely candidate.

[shevek]

All true, Heroine Addict, but the point is that being criticized all the time by everyone around you (friends, co-workers, strangers, whoever) is much
more like real life. whereas getting patted on the back for every little accomplishment and being told you can do no wrong should be left in kindergarten.

Snowflake SJWs want to live perpetually in a kindergarten of their own making, e.g. what happened at Evergreen College where a large group of millennials destroyed their campus for a tantrum. But I'd much rather see a character that has flaws, makes mistakes, has setbacks and so on. Superheroines (just like Spider-Man) should lose battles, they should lose their job, they should get their heart broken, just because it's part of the drama of life and what makes a story interesting and deep.

Also..if there is one superheroine in the story of Doctor Who, it is Delia Derbyshire who deserves our adulation. To think that she created the Doctor Who theme by physically manipulating monophonic sound generators and cutting up pieces of magnetic tape (what was known as musique concrete). Daphne Oram is another heroine of electronic music as well. Both from the BBC's Radiophonic Workshop.

video documentary "The Delian Mode"


BBC radio documentary "Sculptress of Sound"

[endofallthings2]

I am so completely on board with a female doctor... It's time I was able to imagine terrible Bad Ends for a powerful being who always escapes - rather than just his companions! Don't get me wrong, I love coming up with ideas for Amy and Clara and Martha...but just think of the predicament peril and deathtraps you can come up with to deal with a female Doctor (where you have to compensate for sonic screwdrivers, regeneration etc...).

How big a 'bad end' would it be to bring about the demise of an over 900 year old heroine who has 'spare lives', eternal wisdom,and has saved the universe countless times.....it would be the ultimate heroine defeat...

The evil villain in me is rubbing my hands with glee.

...on second thoughts, lets not have female doctor...I don't have the budget for all the commission ideas!

[Heroine Addict]

Shevek, do you have to make everything about identity politics and "SJW snowflakes"? The endless political discussions just go round in circles. Often with a lot of assumptions and tenuous stuff being presented as if it's cast iron evidence. Believe it or not, the new showrunner Chris Chibnall is not a student at Evergreen College. Let's have at least a little faith that he knows what he's doing.

If a female Doctor's stories are written in a way which places her beyond criticism, then will be the time to complain. On the other hand, if she's criticized too much, there will be plenty of complaints that she's characterized as weaker than the previous Doctors.

Let's see if a woman is cast first. And then we'll have a wait until next year to see how she's written.

[JohnFeer]

"The endless political discussions just go round in circles. Often with a lot of assumptions and tenuous stuff being presented as if it's cast iron evidence. "

A lot of politics around here commences with people's disappointment that certain films and television programs do not inspire ready masturbation.

[batgirl1969]

I would be happy if they brought that girl back as the Dr that played his daughter....the hot blonde one...yes..that would be stellar!!

[Heroine Addict]

I would be happy if they brought that girl back as the Dr that played his daughter....the hot blonde one...yes..that would be stellar!!

Georgia Moffett is also David Tennant's wife and Peter Davison's daughter. She would know more about what the role involves than pretty much any other actress.

[ltrltr]

Well. It has just been confirmed. The new Doctor is Jodie Whittaker. The Time Lord is a Time Lady.

[Heroine Addict]

Here's the official trailer.



Not a bad choice. I would have preferred Phoebe, but Jodie is pretty good too.

[JohnFeer]

Looking forward to the rage and disappointment on this board....

[Dazzle1]

I will give Jodie Whittaker a chance, she will be improvement after Capaldi

[ltrltr]

I will give Jodie Whittaker a chance, she will be improvement after Capaldi

Can't agree with that, Capaldi has been fantastic.

[LeeCarl]

Lol. Been a Doctor Who fan since it's revival. This is a bold new direction for the show, and I'm eager to see where it goes. But before the board gets to it's typical behavior, this isn't going to be a heroine with crap tons of sexy campy peril. That will never be Doctor Who. That said...I'm really pumped for this!

[shevek]

Heroine Addict, I think my statement was taken a bit out of context. My comments about SJWs and snowflakes only had to do with whether a character was depicted as too Mary Sue and thus beyond criticism or faults. John Feer: I don't know what rage and disappointment you're talking about. I'm betting that the vast majority of us are into this.

As for a female doctor Who, I'm totally on board.
1) It's already long canon that the Doctor could be any gender.
2) With the success of Wonder Woman, and the next Game of Thrones season being a 'clash of queens', this is the exact right time to do this.
3) Jodie Whittaker is extremely pleasant to look at. She will hopefully inspire many fantasies both on and off this forum.

[Mr. X]

Hasn't every female-led cop show ever made dealt with the heroine being second-guessed by her colleagues,

That's true of every show. Flash, Arrow. Gee Arrow is a complete fuck up. How many times are the females the moral compass or the emotional backing. I haven't seen a recent show series in which the male isn't constantly second guessed.

In current media they won't let the heroine make mistakes. Compare Arrow's trail of misery to Supergirl's. Supergirl doesn't actually kill an innocent person for example or cause the death of loved ones. Flash fucking changed the time line. Oh and lets talk Jimmy Olsen or Diggle. Can these guys be more fuck ups and Daphne from Scooby do?

Also NO. Not every cop show has the female being second guessed. The Closer for example. Murder She Wrote. LAO SVU. In fact Monk got second guessed all the time.

About the only show that meets this model is House in which they always contrive he's right about everything.

The guys don't have it any better. The second guessing is always a plot point used to prolong the story line.

[Dazzle1]

I will give Jodie Whittaker a chance, she will be improvement after Capaldi

Can't agree with that, Capaldi has been fantastic.

Each to his or hew own, I would rate him only better than the 9th, except for Tennant none compare to the first 5

[ltrltr]

I will give Jodie Whittaker a chance, she will be improvement after Capaldi

Can't agree with that, Capaldi has been fantastic.

Each to his or hew own, I would rate him only better than the 9th, except for Tennant none compare to the first 5

I can only form an opinion on eight onwards. But Capaldi has been my favourite, though I was already on board with him due to being a huge Thick of It fan.

[Mr. X]

Let me add an example. The whole last season of Flash was about Savatar, a time remnant created by Flash who went bad. This is basically a duplicate of Flash yet he went around murdering and being a horrible person. This was totally Flash's fault either out of purpose or accident. He misused to speed force. He created a monster. And he paid the price. Plus Savatar never repents. He's rotten all the way to the end.

Now compare this with Supergirl and Bizzaro-ette. Nothing is Supergirl's fault. Clone is made, goes bad but its bad cause its a clone not cause there's a rotten part to Supergirl. Then in the end it repents (I believe) so basically it wasn't bad, it was just created bad and was naive.

That to me is a HUGE pass for the heroine. No deep story line. No examination of the character. No critical view of the character. Supergirl couldn't ever possibly be bad.

[batgirl1969]

I just hope aliens and villains use it against her and that she has lesbian tendancies

[ltrltr]

I just hope aliens and villains use it against her and that she has lesbian tendancies

Would certainly make the relationship with River Song interesting.

[shevek]

Let me add an example. The whole last season of Flash was about Savatar, a time remnant created by Flash who went bad. This is basically a duplicate of Flash yet he went around murdering and being a horrible person. This was totally Flash's fault either out of purpose or accident. He misused to speed force. He created a monster. And he paid the price. Plus Savatar never repents. He's rotten all the way to the end.

Now compare this with Supergirl and Bizzaro-ette. Nothing is Supergirl's fault. Clone is made, goes bad but its bad cause its a clone not cause there's a rotten part to Supergirl. Then in the end it repents (I believe) so basically it wasn't bad, it was just created bad and was naive.

That to me is a HUGE pass for the heroine. No deep story line. No examination of the character. No critical view of the character. Supergirl couldn't ever possibly be bad.

Sorry I'm as much as foe of the Mary Sues as you are, but I believe that's old news. "Rotten part to Supergirl" is an inherent part of the storyline in two fairly recent iterations of the character in her comics:

- 2005's Evil Supergirl story arc. WW's lasso eventually merges them again, but it's acknowledge that ESG is an evil part of SG's persona.

- 2014 Supergirl Red Lantern arc (collected in a 2015 tpb). It is fully acknowledged that Red Lantern Supergirl is the living embodiment of Supergirl's own rage.

Neither has been used in the TV series, of course, but the source material is there, and I wouldn't put it past the producers to eventually use it or something like it.

Heck, it would be hilarious if they used Satan Girl (a Silver Age story where an errant form of kryptonite causes an evil persona of SG to split off) who is in a tight, sexy leather getup (or at least as tight as the 60s could imagine). There's a brief "re-imagining" of Satan Girl in the 2005 Supergirl/Legion annual which is a very sexy updated version in a burlesque-ish 90s bad-girl red leather costume.

Satan Girl (in the middle)

satangirl.jpg (583.78 KiB) Viewed 5337 times

alternate universe Satan Girl

satangirl2.jpg (466.32 KiB) Viewed 5337 times

[Femina]

If things keep happening that I thought would never happen then I'm likely to start thinking that... anything is possible! O.O

Seriously though, this isn't THAT unexpected. Dr. Who's entire production is changing right now, and I don't just mean the Doctor, the show runners and basically everything down probably to some of the producers are regenerating themselves. They're going to want to do their own things, put their own stamp on Who and placing a female in the role of the Doctor is just the first step in visually saying 'we're doing something different' and let's face it... Dr. Who needs some changes.

We're all probably getting a bit annoyed with the deus ex machina's and 'tada love saved the day' storytelling that's been going on. The Doctor has been getting a lot of free passes on his moral compass lately as well, it's one thing to be the master of the third option, it's another thing when they go out of their way to insist that there isn't a third option and a choice between horrible and terrible has to be made only to reveal a third option in the last two minutes.

I'm hopeful the new showrunners will maybe bring the show a liiiiitle bit more down to earth (not so far as to actually force the show to remain on earth or anything but... you know, sometimes a ghost story can actually be a ghost story and doesn't need a massive seventh inning twist just for the sake of a twist) so for now I'm tentatively excited.

Wait for it...

Does this mean we'll be getting some shmexy Doctor Who related heroine peril and such?

[MightyHypnotic]

Well. It has just been confirmed. The new Doctor is Jodie Whittaker. The Time Lord is a Time Lady.

Very nice! I hope you don't mind, I borrowed that phrase for the front page article

[ltrltr]

Well. It has just been confirmed. The new Doctor is Jodie Whittaker. The Time Lord is a Time Lady.

Very nice! I hope you don't mind, I borrowed that phrase for the front page article

Not at all, I can't claim it as my own to begin with.

[MightyHypnotic]

http://www.superheroineforum.com/jodie- ... th-doctor/

[Dazzle1]

There are two SJW aspects to this

1. The media in the U.K is so for a female Doctor, they are attacking long time fans who disagree.

2 The new guy in charge is promoting an SJW agenda just like Moffatt

I will watch it as I have every other new DW with an open mind, but she better be a lot better than Capaldi, Smith and Eccelston

[lionbadger]

There are two SJW.......

At which point I stop reading because I don't care about needy teenage boys who didn't get enough hugs or time on the tit.

SJW seems to be short hand for 'I don't like but can't just say that'

[Dazzle1]

There are two SJW.......

At which point I stop reading because I don't care about needy teenage boys who didn't get enough hugs or time on the tit.

SJW seems to be short hand for 'I don't like but can't just say that'

In other words you are unwilling to hear other points of views like most SJWs

[endofallthings2]

Well...looks like I'll need to expand my commissioning budget...




....how many terrible ways can you defeat a Lord/Lady of Time.....

[Visitor]

How many new uses are there for a sonic screw driver? I did like Missy's sonic umbrella that hardly ever was used.

[tallyho]

They might go for a sonic dildo

[batgirl1969]

They might go for a sonic dildo

See....this is going to fun...you know there will be references like that....what an amazing idea...I hope the companions are still chics too....

[tallyho]

She's WAAAAAAY better looking than Sylvester McCoy it has to be said.

[shevek]

There are two SJW.......

At which point I stop reading because I don't care about needy teenage boys who didn't get enough hugs or time on the tit.

SJW seems to be short hand for 'I don't like but can't just say that'

In other words you are unwilling to hear other points of views like most SJWs

Lionbadger, there are plenty of women (and nonwhites) on the anti-SJW side of things.
In fact, much of the world's cultures are inherently anti-SJW, since they do not share certain values with the Western progressive left.
Nor does anti-SJW mean non-worldly (we do leave our moms' basements) or non-liberal.
Way to pigeonhole. Just saying.

I don't know the extent of the far-left didactics and virtue signaling (a la Marvel Comics) the Doctor Who producers push on their audience or not, since I don't normally watch the show much (I don't have cable or streaming services). Nonetheless I'm intrigued by the possibility of a beautiful woman playing the part of the Doctor for all the obvious reasons.

[Dogfish]

There are two SJW.......

At which point I stop reading because I don't care about needy teenage boys who didn't get enough hugs or time on the tit.

SJW seems to be short hand for 'I don't like but can't just say that'

In other words you are unwilling to hear other points of views like most SJWs

To be fair, it's Doctor Who. If you're not into the whole social justice malarkey it's not really a show for you.

[Femina]

There are two SJW aspects to this

1. The media in the U.K is so for a female Doctor, they are attacking long time fans who disagree.

2 The new guy in charge is promoting an SJW agenda just like Moffatt

I will watch it as I have every other new DW with an open mind, but she better be a lot better than Capaldi, Smith and Eccelston

I take a few things out of this...

1 - If the U.K. (Aka the orgin and creators of Doctor Who) are so for a female doctor then it seems to me that means it's time for a female doctor and

2 - You can't possibly know that until you've actually seen an episode.

However it's the "I'll watch it with an open mind BUT (Everything said before a but doesn't matter if it isn't true) she better be a lot better than (male/male/and male)" that I sorta feel like you're being overly picky about here. If she's JUST AS GOOD AS a male doctor that should be enough. So what I get, basically, from this is that 'a female actor has to be better than a male actor or I quit' PLEASE enlighten me if I'm wrong here, but that's basically what it sounds like. An open mind would be to accept it if the quality is just as good as regardless of the fact that you were worried so its okay... not it had better be the second coming or else it's all the SJW's fault! (and let's not even get into how it's the SJW's fault if it fails and sucks but no credit is due the SJW's if it succeeds and is great)

[Mr. X]

I think all the pretty ponies are special.

[Disciple]

I honestly had no idea this many people on this board gave a crap about Who. Star Wars and Trek I can understand, given that neither has exactly been shy about dipping into the pulpy fanservice well, but isn't the whole point of Who "old codger goes teaching history, with occasional time travel and homicidal robots"? Where's the stake for either side of the Great SJW Wars?

Well, at least we haven't started getting into rows about Harry Potter yet...

[Femina]

The Doctor hasn't been an old codger for a long time.... well at least he had not been until the most recent one, before that he'd been three fairly young guys in a row... and cross out 'occasional time travel and homocidal robots' with 'constant time travel and numerous homicidal robots' :P

It's pretty big in sci-fi culture/conventions etc. QUITE a lot of the time you'll find that the same people who like Star Wars and Star Trek (and comic books and comic book films) also tend to delve into other corners of popular sci-fi 'convention' featured content for their entertainment purposes (Shocker, not all those purposes are even of sexual nature). That means Dr. Who, it even means old 'classics' that don't even have new content coming out like Battlestar Galactica and Firefly, it means a lot of things. It shouldn't surprise anyone that a fairly popular running TV show has fans in ANY circle or group of enough people... PARTICULARLY online where exist a larger portion of society that give a damn about this sort of thing.

I think all the pretty ponies are special.

That was exceptionally well phrased and warenting of not merely a post, but surely a topic thread all its own.

[tallyho]

What made Who was always the strength of the stories in the old Nation days. That was the point , it didnt matter Who played Who (cue Angus Young strumming in the background) - the sets were crap, the monsters were guys in bad suits, the greatest of all his foes could whisk an egg and unblock a sink but couldnt go up stairs, but none of thst mattered because the stories were good. And we didnt have any crap about latent sexual chemistry with his assistants BECAUSE he was a wise old grand dad sort of character who then morphed into wild eccentric nutter over the years but no one gave a shit about there not being any gays in the show because it wasnt about that- it was about the wonders of the universe and the evil thats in there too and how it can all be countered with a great scarf and a jelly baby, amongst other things. But it was one detailed story told over 6 episodes. Today we get 40 mins of sometimes interesting plot all solved at the push of a button right at the end. It aint Who anymore, and hasnt been for years. I wont watch it because its all so quickly resolved it becomes meaningless as a story, but i hope she gets a fair crack at it, she's a good actress. Bring back the 6 parter detailed stories exploring both sides of the coin where good isnt always good and evil isnt always evil and I'm there, but until then, Who cares? They just wheel out the daleks and the cybermen every series and throw in the Master too. Familiarity breeds contempt. They took the viewer for granted a long time ago. Regardless of how good or bad she is I wont be watching because it aint Who anyway, just in name only.

[Dazzle1]

To Femina and Dogfish

DR Who traditionaly has not been SJW, the Doctor if anything was a Libertarian

As far as hoping she is better, I have been critical of those three Doctors so yes I want a DW who is better than the last 5 years

[Heroine Addict]

Ah, yes. The Doctor's renowned Libertarianism.

How well I recall the episode in which the Libertarian Doctor gave an inspirational speech to the Thals.

"Stop fucking whining about being oppressed by the Daleks. If it bothers you so much, go off and establish an evil empire for yourselves. I'm not getting involved. I have a fucking massive TARDIS, so I don't give a shit about you poor cunts."

And then the Political Correctness Brigade came along and changed the show so that the Doctor was constantly getting justice for the little people. It's PC gone mad, I tell you!

[viking]

This is a fantasy program right? If the stories are well written and the performer does a good job, I couldn't care less if it is a male or female playing Dr. Who.