Michael Lee Lundsford's Superheroine Redesigns

[cdrei]

http://www.themarysue.com/fully-clothed-superhero/

This is actually from a few months ago, when it apparently caused a bit of a stir. There are several links relating to the topic available via Google, but I can't find the original source. The above link was posted by a Facebook acquaintance last spring. I bookmarked it and found it again today. It reminded me why I went off on a bit of a rant about it, causing several FB friends to stop talking to me. Umm.

Michael Lee Lundsford decided to try redesigning superheroine costumes to fully clothe and de-sexualize the characters. His designs are shown at the link. I don't personally have too great a problem with the motive for the project, but I really hate the results. Everyone and his dog online seems to think they are fabulous though, for some reason. It makes me want to screech, "What's wrong with you people?!?"

What really bothers me about the designs is that the artist seems to have completely ignored the history of superheroes as a genre, particularly the history of costume designs. He just seems to riff on the existing designs for the characters, applying his personal aesthetic and the standard of deliberate de-sexualization. Regardless of the gender of the characters, I think these are just awful, tacky, dreary, uninteresting costumes. Ugh. I would never have been interested in reading a comic featuring these characters. I think the artist should be forced to carefully study superhero costumes from the Golden Age through the Bronze Age, then come back to the project. These designs seem to me less like comments on female superhero costume design than a rejection of everything the superhero genre actually is and has been. Man, it makes me grumpy.

At any rate, I thought the topic might be of interest to some here, given that we're pretty much all fans of existing superheroine design concepts at this site.

[Mr. X]

So if we supposedly live in a less conservative and more liberal society WHY are so many people PRUDES? Are people so afraid of excellence that everything has to be dulled down for them?

BTW how come no redesign of the men. Aren't there sensitive male readers who are put off by muscular Batman and Superman? Maybe no more broad shoulders and square jaws.

[cdrei]

So if we supposedly live in a less conservative and more liberal society WHY are so many people PRUDES?

Possibly the answer would be, "Something something something Rape Culture!" I found several sites where these redesign efforts were being praised. They were pretty much all on the political left. I guess if we had a more parliamentary system with a range of smaller parties rather than two monolithic ones, some factions on the left and right might be natural allies. At least in certain areas. Weird stuff.

What boggles my mind about the design changes is that they were being praised for being somehow more "realistic". As if realism is of prime importance in the superhero genre. Ugly, wretched designs. Bleargh.

[sugarcoater]

Fortunately, those designs will result in a quick bankruptcy for DC if they ever adopt those.
I quit buying Wonder Woman comics due to the terrible art and the bland costume. I can't even get interested in the new Supergirl, and Batgirl's new super-armored costume is over-the-top for me. In short, DC took a good thing from the 80s-90s and killed it. The peak for me was George Perez on Wonder Woman, Gary Frank or Ed Benes on Supergirl (but I wish it could have been the Kara Supergirl), and the classic Batgirl of old.

[Mr. X]

In the old JLA days they redesigned Black Canary's costume to be some baggy pants and shirt. I can see trying new stuff but instead of coming into someone else's house and smashing everything why not build their own house... so we can come in and smash everything.

[drh1966]

So if we supposedly live in a less conservative and more liberal society WHY are so many people PRUDES?

Possibly the answer would be, "Something something something Rape Culture!" I found several sites where these redesign efforts were being praised. They were pretty much all on the political left.

It's an interesting situation we live in today in that we have the media sexualizing all of our entertainment (ex. teen popstars presented as sex objects) and influencing young girls to emulate them, and the political machine and empowerment groups trying to dial everything back by stripping away sexuality. I wouldn't say many people are prudes, just look around and see what's walking around. It's the vocal minority, as it always is, trying to impose their beliefs on everyone else. And they exert a disproportionate amount of influence.

The comments here are interesting and telling. While I agree that those drawings are ridiculous and horrid, it goes to show that guys really don't care about the characters, only how she looks. If she's drawn hot then guys will buy it, if her costume's practical, forget it. I guess it's always been that way when it comes to heroines, they really aren't drawn realistically with their enormous breasts and impossible curves, not to mention every one of them is gorgeous. I fall into this category too, if the girl doesn't look good I'm not in.

[sugarcoater]

"What boggles my mind about the design changes is that they were being praised for being somehow more "realistic". As if realism is of prime importance in the superhero genre."

cdrei, that is an excellent point that rarely seems to be brought up. You create impossible characters and scenarios, but then insist in realistic costumes? Where's the logic?!
Maybe they need to show Batman using adult diapers. After all, bathrooms are hard to find at 3AM, and one never knows how long a stakeout might last.

[cdrei]

So if we supposedly live in a less conservative and more liberal society WHY are so many people PRUDES?

Possibly the answer would be, "Something something something Rape Culture!" I found several sites where these redesign efforts were being praised. They were pretty much all on the political left.

It's an interesting situation we live in today in that we have the media sexualizing all of our entertainment (ex. teen popstars presented as sex objects) and influencing young girls to emulate them, and the political machine and empowerment groups trying to dial everything back by stripping away sexuality. I wouldn't say many people are prudes, just look around and see what's walking around. It's the vocal minority, as it always is, trying to impose their beliefs on everyone else. And they exert a disproportionate amount of influence.

The comments here are interesting and telling. While I agree that those drawings are ridiculous and horrid, it goes to show that guys really don't care about the characters, only how she looks. If she's drawn hot then guys will buy it, if her costume's practical, forget it. I guess it's always been that way when it comes to heroines, they really aren't drawn realistically with their enormous breasts and impossible curves, not to mention every one of them is gorgeous. I fall into this category too, if the girl doesn't look good I'm not in.

It is an interesting situation. For my part, I can understand at least part of the feminist critique on the left which seemingly motivated the artist to do these designs. I mock the umbrella concept of "rape culture" because it is overly broad and vague. It seems to be invoked for everything and anything. It reminds me of "post-modernism" that way. I despair of ever fully understanding either.

For my part, I hate these designs from a superhero fanboy geeky perspective. It looks to me like the artist doesn't understand what he's really commenting on, ultimately, so he ends up doing a bit of a piss-take on superheroes. Thankfully sugarcoater is right, and DC wouldn't actually implement designs like these, but there seems to be some evidence that DC has been responding to the cultural criticism behind these designs.

Possibly I am becoming one of those grumpy old guys who doesn't understand the concerns of "kids these days", as middle age creeps up on me.

[Femina]

There really isn't a problem with a guy drawing Superheroines with pants as a screw around project on his spare time. They aren't official DC design changes, and last I heard about these was long enough ago that I'm sure they were never even considered. When the new 52 was announced DC instituted a 'girls wear pants' policy for all their heroines that Supergirl flagrantly flipped the bird 'Screw you' she said, 'I'm not even going to wear a skirt this time!'

Anyway, my point is, there's nothing here that should be considered worrisome to our little hobby. Most of the redesigns aren't even good. The two question I would ask the artist are 'Why do all of them wear baggy pants? Superhero's don't often wear baggy pants so why would all the girls?' but perhaps most importantly of all 'Why do all the girls pants match their costume except for Wonder Woman? Brown pants? On Red White and Blue? It doesn't make any stylistic sense?'

I'd say a few of them even look good. Elektra's costume even kind of works with baggy pants since ninja's tend to sometimes wear those big poofy pants in Japanese anime's and stuff but I'm getting ahead of myself.

The reason they generate lots of positive feedback is because the artist drew them up and female comic readers who happen to like the idea of a female superhero that wears pants find them cool. That's really all there is to it and really... we shouldn't begrudge them that. Let them have their superheroines in pants. Let us have superheroines in whatever makes them sexiest, there's no reason we can't have both.

[Mr. X]

What's funny is that McCalls, First, Vogue and other fashion mags have clothes that are a lot more racy than these outfits. These seriously seem like something the Taliban would whip up. I know this won't effect our genre but maybe we need to realize that both left and right are just conservative prudes in this country. If you're being kicked by a boot it doesn't matter if its left or right. Maybe the left needs to ask themselves HOW they ended up being so conservative in this manner or if they think this is right then stop beating up on conservatives for supporting the same position.

I think there is something else going on here namely: straight men like it - it must be evil and censored. Either out of social justice revenge or the demonizing of hetero sexual men as the bad guys I think these things are more in the arena of anti-straight men than in protection of women.

[cdrei]

"What boggles my mind about the design changes is that they were being praised for being somehow more "realistic". As if realism is of prime importance in the superhero genre."

cdrei, that is an excellent point that rarely seems to be brought up. You create impossible characters and scenarios, but then insist in realistic costumes? Where's the logic?!
Maybe they need to show Batman using adult diapers. After all, bathrooms are hard to find at 3AM, and one never knows how long a stakeout might last.

Yeah, it seems like the artist and most of the people who praised his work don't really understand the superhero genre. They have some vague idea from movies or TV, but no grasp of the history or essential characteristics of the form. There seems to be a lot of that sort of thing among social commentators. Yesterday I ended up reading a sociologist's interpretation of the current zombie apocalypse fad. The piece focused on The Walking Dead to illustrate the ideas, but then fell back on the old gag about zombies eating brains... which is isolated to a different sub-set of zombie culture altogether. The author was clearly exploiting the current big name zombie franchise to hook readers, without having paid much attention to it.

I also can't help commenting on any mention of both superheroes and diapers. If you've seen my gallery on this site, I guess you'll know that. I think that whole thing with me may ultimately have been touched off by my first viewing of the Batman TV show. I was 4, not long out of diapers, and Batman's shiny trunks, worn outside his pants, were readily associated with diapers. That was also my first glimpse of Batgirl, bondage, and SHIB. I think it was Batgirl in Lord Fogg's dungeon. Funny how the mind works, and where an experience like that can take a person in life.

But, to actually address your point (instead of just scaring everyone who reads the thread with my weird personal disclosures ), I agree. The emphasis on "realism" is strangely selective. Alan Moore commented on biological needs interfering with superheroic crime-fighting, in Watchmen, but I've never seen anyone else even vaguely touch on the matter.

[tallyho]

Sweet Jesus! It looks like he's just taken two female elf characters from any where and coloured them in as Superheroines.

[cdrei]

There really isn't a problem with a guy drawing Superheroines with pants as a screw around project on his spare time.

...

The reason they generate lots of positive feedback is because the artist drew them up and female comic readers who happen to like the idea of a female superhero that wears pants find them cool. That's really all there is to it and really... we shouldn't begrudge them that. Let them have their superheroines in pants. Let us have superheroines in whatever makes them sexiest, there's no reason we can't have both.

Yes, I agree. There is no direct "threat" posed by this. Personally, I object to the way it rejects the long (and, IMO, wonderful and strange) history of superhero costume design. Dressing superheroes in more "normal" attire or bringing in influences from other genres simply ruins what I've always loved about the genre. I keep thinking of the early Justice Society, with it's broad range of weird styles. As tallyho notes, just above me somewhere, these look like they're influenced by the swords & sorcery genre more than the superheroic one. I balk at almost all of Jim Lee's designs (and he has had a real influence on the industry) for similar reasons. Dressing superheroes like G.I. Joe characters or something from a kung fu movie just bugs me. I guess I am a superhero design conservative. Umm.

[Femina]

So if we supposedly live in a less conservative and more liberal society WHY are so many people PRUDES?

Possibly the answer would be, "Something something something Rape Culture!" I found several sites where these redesign efforts were being praised. They were pretty much all on the political left.

It's an interesting situation we live in today in that we have the media sexualizing all of our entertainment (ex. teen popstars presented as sex objects) and influencing young girls to emulate them, and the political machine and empowerment groups trying to dial everything back by stripping away sexuality. I wouldn't say many people are prudes, just look around and see what's walking around. It's the vocal minority, as it always is, trying to impose their beliefs on everyone else. And they exert a disproportionate amount of influence.

The comments here are interesting and telling. While I agree that those drawings are ridiculous and horrid, it goes to show that guys really don't care about the characters, only how she looks. If she's drawn hot then guys will buy it, if her costume's practical, forget it. I guess it's always been that way when it comes to heroines, they really aren't drawn realistically with their enormous breasts and impossible curves, not to mention every one of them is gorgeous. I fall into this category too, if the girl doesn't look good I'm not in.

I kind of agree here. In a lot of ways, stuff like this is really our own fault. The good news is it isn't going to change anything, the bad news is probably maybe also that it isn't going to change anything but I hesitate to weigh in one direction or the other as I feel the issue itself isn't particularly worrisome on a grand scale. There's nothing wrong with a superheroine wearing pants... there just isn't, but on the other hand there's also nothing wrong with a superheroine wearing a leotard or a two piece or whatever the hell she wants to wear.

The subject of 'Rape Culture' being what it is. There is the niche faction of total sociopath's that get it in their heads that a woman dressing sexy or provocatively indicates that she's advertising herself for sex and therefore nothing done to them constitutes as rape or whatever (and unfortunately these kinds of psychos tend to broadcast themselves in one way or another) buuuut with this in mind... doesn't a superheroine dressing up however she wants while fighting crime, remaining proud of her appearance and at ease with her sexuality while also having crystal clear alagories as to when she is and is not consenting exactly the right message in that area of 'rape culture' that anybody should be allowed to wear whatever they want and everyone else should respect that right unilaterally?

[cdrei]

Maybe the left needs to ask themselves HOW they ended up being so conservative in this manner or if they think this is right then stop beating up on conservatives for supporting the same position.

There are definitely factional battles being fought out on the left, over this sort of thing. I've wasted too many hours reading the debates and arguments, oh my. There is a distinctly puritanical quality to several movements on the left, which is fascinating and troubling to me at the same time. It begins to seem like the pervs are going to get smacked around, no matter which side they vote for.

[Mr. X]

Maybe the left needs to ask themselves HOW they ended up being so conservative in this manner or if they think this is right then stop beating up on conservatives for supporting the same position.

There are definitely factional battles being fought out on the left, over this sort of thing. I've wasted too many hours reading the debates and arguments, oh my. There is a distinctly puritanical quality to several movements on the left, which is fascinating and troubling to me at the same time. It begins to seem like the pervs are going to get smacked around, no matter which side they vote for.

Dick Morris said it best. The right is an ideology. everyone on the right believes the ideology so even if you kill the leadership they all still individually believe in the cause. The left is like herding cats. Its a collection of separate special interest groups who's only binding is their hatred of the right. There is no underlying ideology that links them together. Take out the right and these groups attack each other. Like blacks and hispanics voting for prop 8 in california or environmentalists attacking wind and solar or feminists attacking sexual liberty.

[cdrei]

Dick Morris said it best. The right is an ideology. everyone on the right believes the ideology so even if you kill the leadership they all still individually believe in the cause. The left is like herding cats. Its a collection of separate special interest groups who's only binding is their hatred of the right. There is no underlying ideology that links them together. Take out the right and these groups attack each other. Like blacks and hispanics voting for prop 8 in california or environmentalists attacking wind and solar or feminists attacking sexual liberty.

Interesting. I've seen the same basic observation presented as the left having collapsed into factions once the movement steered away from the economic concerns which had created more unity and a broader appeal, in the past. I think the change was probably a bit more complex than that, but maybe that's at least part of what happened.

I worry that if the discussion becomes too overtly political, the thread might transmute into one of the "disruptive or controversial" topics we're warned to avoid on this forum, at risk of being locked.

[Mr. X]

yeah my fault as well. Lets get back on topic. As someone said this will never come about BUT it does seem to influence the WW movie ideas a lot.

[Henchman]

I'm not even a comic fan and even I can tell there's something seriously gone wrong here.

In my 30 odd years of watching women of all shapes and sizes, it seems to me that they like to appear attractive. Just like men in fact. I would go so far as suggesting that women go to a great deal of trouble to accomplish that aim (thankfully for all of us). The overwhelming majority of pretty young ladies I have observed pick clothes that are flattering and in colours which go together. Shapeless, ill-fitting sacks in random colours very rarely feature in their wardrobes. They are also very good at still looking sexy, even when practicality would appear to mitigate against them doing so, for example at muddy festivals.

Now in our fictional reality, where practicality is not even an issue, what might a young lady choose to wear if she was so powerful she didn't even have to worry about unwanted male attention?

I just can't see them choosing baggy trousers, sorry Mr Lee.


Note - I suppose the opposing view would be that women don't choose to dress excitingly and stylishly because they wish to, but rather because our male dominated society expects/forces them to do so.

[cdrei]

yeah my fault as well. Lets get back on topic. As someone said this will never come about BUT it does seem to influence the WW movie ideas a lot.

The designs showcased here are just the work of some internet cartoonist, but the cultural critique which that artist is applying does seem to have its impact on current comics projects. I'm glad I'm not the one who has to try to navigate these issues by trying to design a Wonder Woman costume for a movie. Hoo boy. That has to be tricky. The character is so iconic that they can't try to dodge the issue by clothing her in black leather while mocking the idea of colorful spandex as an alternative.

I doubt they could do it as a movie script, but perhaps a way to deal with the problem constructively would be to structure the story at least partially as an exploration of the various social issues involved. I wonder if one could re-imagine the character of Wonder Woman by "going back to basics" not in terms of what we were shown in the 40s comic, but in terms of William Moulton Marston's original goals and ideas for the character. While grappling with the points ViridianIV raises, above. Probably not a feasible approach for film, but perhaps it would make an interesting graphic novel. A Batman: The Dark Knight Returns for Wonder Woman. Rather than let the character be tossed around by the cultural discourse, acknowledge that discourse, comment on it, and work within it, maybe even successfully re-frame it. Umm.

[Mr. X]

Its like the video game industry. Right now there's a group of angry 35 year old teenagers who have these industries by their balls who are simply sucking the fun out of everything to get back at their parents. Blade Runner is over 35 years old. Its OLLLLDDDD. Dystopia is beaten to death. Time to move on. Both industries need a serious house cleaning IMHO. I really think they are now making reimagings of existing franchises JUST to ruin the franchise. Kind of like a kid buying his parents old home and burning it down so he can masturbate to the fire.

[cdrei]

Its like the video game industry. Right now there's a group of angry 35 year old teenagers who have these industries by their balls who are simply sucking the fun out of everything to get back at their parents. Blade Runner is over 35 years old. Its OLLLLDDDD. Dystopia is beaten to death. Time to move on. Both industries need a serious house cleaning IMHO. I really think they are now making reimagings of existing franchises JUST to ruin the franchise. Kind of like a kid buying his parents old home and burning it down so he can masturbate to the fire.

Our culture does seem locked into revisitations of the past. My understanding of "post-modernism" is vague, as I note above, but I think that's supposedly part of the post-modern movement. Mix and match old styles and forms, creating something new out of the cast-offs of existing culture. The trouble being that nothing new is being added and the whole thing not only fails to move forward, it also easily becomes disposable and irrelevant. Modernism built up monolithic movements and ideas. Post-modernism deconstructs, tears down, and reconfigures. Or such is my limited understanding.

Or it might be some kind of risk-aversion. Or pop culture has become dominated by its old achievements because copyright laws make it easier to work with existing properties than to create a new one which doesn't infringe on existing ownership rights. Maybe it's just more profitable to exploit an existing property than to create a new one from scratch. Maybe the baby boomers were such a huge demographic, dominating our culture for so long, that we can't escape from echoes of their youths. Hmm. I'm babbling again. Pretty sure.

I end up asking myself whether the very concept of the superhero is relevant in our current culture.

Also, I think I may have missed your point. The "darker and edgier", dystopian reinterpretation business is well and thoroughly played out, IMO. It lost my interest a long, long time ago.

[cdrei]

Now in our fictional reality, where practicality is not even an issue, what might a young lady choose to wear if she was so powerful she didn't even have to worry about unwanted male attention?

I'd like to see some costume designs developed using that perspective. Get into the head space of the characters, apply their specific concerns, interests, and backgrounds to the matter. But, also. Honor the core concept of the superhero. Don't pull some kind of Tim Kring sort of a thing. Hmm.

[killorson]

I cannot stand people like this 'artist' and all of the prudish, feminist hypocrites. I refuse to purchase anything DC related until their influence goes away and the characters are more like they were in the 80s-early 2000s.

Currently the hobbies/fantasies and healthy sexuality of heterosexual males is under assault, particularly by groups associatd with the left. The women watch all of the shirtless males on display for them on morning TV, in Twilight and Magic Mike, and on CW shows at night. They purchase their romance novels with naked, unrealistic men on the covers. They essentially have their visual fantasies catered to 24/7 and no one holds them to the same standard. Yet we can't have our healthy male fantasies in video games, comic books, or anywhere else. The president apologizes for calling a woman pretty. An ESPN commentator apologized for calling miss Alabama pretty.

If you want to be allowed to be a man and actually enjoy it, you have to speak up. Don't let all the comments be 'positive' for the double-standard bs. Point out the hypocricy. Call them out on demonizing our sexuality and policing our perfectly healthy hobbies. Do the same to them on forums where they enjoy shirtless males. If you let them bully you without speaking up, everything you enjoy will be taken away. Quit purchasing products when they start catering to feminists who attack male sexuality. Let them why you stopped purchasing the product.

[Mr. X]

I'm also wondering if this isn't also an attack on attractive women. When I was a progressive in college we read a guy who's last name was Rauls I believe who postulated that there can't be beauty pageants because pretty people are born with an advantage so therefore they cannot use that advantage and owe society. It could be some of this is also the tearing down of attractive women who are perceived to have an advantage. Remember under the lawn mower all the blades of grass are equal.

[cdrei]

It could be some of this is also the tearing down of attractive women who are perceived to have an advantage.

This interpretation might make an interesting Wonder Woman story, riffing on the costuming controversy and allowing a villainess to advocate for the anti-beauty idea. I imagine the maimed/deformed Dr. Cyber gloating to Wonder Woman. But I think I'm being thoroughly influenced by a recent review of some back issues, with this.

[xxxwarriorxxx]

I agree with what most of you are saying. Its a complete joke how bad this nation has changed in just a few years. Nobody has a backbone or spine anymore because the far left is so quick to throw the "Politically Correct" flag around. Such a shame. Obviously the extreme far right is just as bad.

These redesigns are an absolute joke. Nobody wants to see this garbage. Why do you think fans of the new Wonder Woman TV show got pissed? Because she was wearing pants. Come on now.

Nobody wants to see ugly girls, its as simple as that. Please bring on the Miss USA shows, Pageants, etc. The whole country just needs to sit down and shut the hell up and mind their own business.

[dlo005]

I hope he doesn't do any redesigning for giada....it will have a huge effect on my cooking education http://funfive.net/giada-de-laurentiis/13036.html

[kingles]

Oh no! Our female fantasy characters are underdressed! Whatever will we do? Won't somebody think of the children?!?!?!?

Really though, if somebody wants to create NEW superheroines with much more conservatively designed costumes like that...no problem. I wish them luck with that. Just don't do it to pre existing characters, especially popular characters. It's one thing if the concept is presented as an alternative to the more sexily costumed traditional characters... and another entirely if someone seeks to eliminate more sexily clad superheroines all together.