(Custom) BUYERS BEWARE!!

[EvilBilly]

As some of you may have read in another post, I had ordered a custom video with Angelique Kithos/Ted Michaels back in August. I had shared with them my plot detailing what I was looking for (Heroine Death Peril) which they were OK with. They quoted me a price which I was fine with and sent a PayPal invoice which I paid. I was also provided with a target date for completion.

Angelique initially was good about updates, I had requested a costume idea which she said could be done. But then there were delays in the components coming from the supplier. Then I agreed to use an existing costume, no big deal.

The first target date came and went; a revised date was provided. That came and went. Then another, and the responses to my inquiries stopped.

Ted then was kind enough to pick up the correspondence; again, more dates were promised and those passed with no result. And now his responses have stopped.

I know that some of you have ordered and received customs from Angelique; I also understand that what I like isn't everyone's cup of tea and may not sell well on a C4S store. But if that's the case why accept the project and take my money?

All I can say at this point is: Buyer Beware.

[RedMountain]

If you used paypal you should be able to file a claim. One way to get their attention would be to file a claim and request your money back. They have a certain amount of time to respond to your complaint or paypal will credit you the funds back.

[EvilBilly]

Hi, Red:

I did try this, but according to PayPal 'services' don't fall under Buyer Protection. Plus, more than 90 days had passed. Angelique probably knows this, which is why she strung me along. Ted is making it sound like they MIGHT provide my custom, but I'm not betting on that.

[ranger87]

Sorry, man. That's rough. But, after all the talk, they'd be very ballsy to try advertising on this forum without expecting to get flamed. In a community like this, screwing your customers will end career.

[TIEnTEEZ]

Unfortunately, this is a risk we all take when ordering customs. You really have no recourse if they decide to just rip you off. I've had several similar experiences (not with Kithos, but with others).

We really only have one defense, which is informing each other.

Which makes what Kithos is doing here an insanely stupid business practice. I guess they are banking on not many people reading this forum.

Oh.. in case anyone is wondering, stay away from:
Layla Aubrey
Miss Nyla

I don't think either of them do SuperHeroine stuff, anyway, but just in case.

[TIEnTEEZ]

BTW... anyone else have anything in the works with Addie Juniper? Been waiting almost a month and sent at least 3 e-mails with no response. I want to give her the benefit of the doubt, but I'm starting to think I've been ripped off again.

[EvilBilly]

This was just posted by Angelique on Facebook:

Officially announcing my semi-retirement from modeling and full retirement from fetish. More details coming soon December 2013

Interesting.

[getoffthshed12000]

Dude, that sucks. It's always scary to give someone that much money and trust that they'll deliver. The unfortunate thing is, if they only screw someone over every now and then, they'll probably get away with it and not see it affect their business much. As has been said the only real thing you can do is spread the word. I don't know what forums she's active on (I don't think she's active here anymore), but sound the alarm wherever you can. Although it may be moot at this point if she's retiring from fetish work. If she had any honor, she'd refund your money before disappearing from the community.

Two producers I CAN recommend are Jacquelyn Velvets and Cali Logan. I've ordered customs from both in the past and they were prompt and professional.

[avenger]

I'll say this as simply as I can, but contacting local law enforcement IS an option. In most jurisdictions, it's investigated by a white-collar crimes dept. or specialized internet crimes. Simply put, it is FRAUD and where I've worked fraud is investigated, especially if it involves internet commerce. Evilbilly does have recourse, and the first step is to have your bank/credit card company start a fraud investigation. He'll most likely have to fill out an affidavit stating he paid money for services that weren't provided, then I would follow up with a local law enforcement complaint. Like I said, most, if not all, local law enforcement are now equipped to deal with internet fraud and related crimes. Usually the white-collar crimes detectives (or investigators) will follow the money and communication trail and eventually get the ip address. This is an option for Evilbilly and I hope he uses the resources available to him. I hate hearing about cases like this, but forums are a good way to at least warn other people about it. Does newphx filmworks ring a bell to anyone?

[getoffthshed12000]

That is an option, but does he want to have an official record of the fact he ordered this type of material online? I'd say a major reason producers get away with ripping people off is because customers fear the exposure of having "weird internet fetishes" and don't pursue any legal action.

More power to you, if you decide to go this route, EvilBilly. Maybe the threat of this would be enough to get your custom or your money back. You'd just have to be prepared to go all the way.

[avenger]

the only thing he has to risk is his pride; if he's embarassed to explain the content of the product, then that's on him, but you have to remember---seasoned detectives and investigators have pretty much seen and heard everything, and fetish material, so long as it's not illegal, isn't anything to be worried about. I'd set aside my embarassment dealing with an experienced investigator anyday, especially if it means getting my money back and sending a message to the person who tried to rip me off. In the end, he gets his money back and kithos and her business partners are investigated and possibly prosecuted, and the investigator will forget all about Evilbilly and his fetish pretty quickly. I understand this particular genre is hard to explain and maybe a little embarassing to discuss in some circles, but it shouldn't prohibit anyone from pursuing justice to get their hard earned money back and making sure these slimeball producers can't do it again. This isn't child porn or drug dealing we're talking about here; it's adult-oriented, consensual fantasy genre fetish material and it's not illegal. If there is any email communication between customer and producer, it's pretty much a written contract. Evilbilly has nothing to lose but a few moments of pride, and I think he or anyone else will get over that pretty quiickly. You have to remember, an investigation is just like peeling an onion--there are many layers. Does kithos want her tax records audited or scrutinized as a result of this? I've known several cases of simple internet fraud investigations that have lead to IRS audits because of the money generated. Believe me, no producer wants to be caught screwing over customers these days, so kithos---if you or any of your goons are reading this, do the right thing and return Evilbilly's money asap. Trust me--you do NOT want to play hardball with law enforcement when it comes to internet commerce. If this happened to me, I would unleash hell on whoever did this to me and believe you me---I'd get my money back and someone would be in ruins.

[EvilBilly]

I appreciate the support and the suggestions; all valid points. I paid for this through PayPal and will pursue further action through that avenue.

[avenger]

...and I'm going to take a guess and say Evilbilly must have paid over $100 for a custom, at least. In some states that's considered grand larceny. If he wants to disclose how much he paid in this forum that's on him, but dollar amounts depend on the charge, and I've read that some custom movies can be anywhere from $100-900 depending on model charge, materials, locations, etc. In any case, if kithos knowingly took his money and hasn't provided product in agreed time or manner, then she's committing fraud and could be (or should be) charged with grand larceny. I don't feel sorry for her or anyone who does this crap. Maybe if kithos had half a brain she'd refund his money TODAY and go away quietly.

[TIEnTEEZ]

Avenger, you have a good point. I never really considered that.

When this happened to me the first time (with Layla Aubrey) she made a point of making it clear right up front that she knew my home address and full name. Granted, I didn't do anything illegal, but the embarrassment factor is there and I do work with kids, so I don't really want that getting out and potentially affecting my job.

On the other hand... Layla Aubrey is still in business and my guess is that once it got out that she revealed the identity of one of her clients, it would pretty much be the end of that business. She has a lot more to lose than I do.

I consulted a lawyer and he basically told me that for the amount of money I lost, it wasn't worth pursuing. That was a case of $200. I assume this is probably a lot more.

There's also the aggravation factor to consider - do you really want to get into a fight with someone like this? There's something to be said for learning from the experience and moving on.

I know a woman who had a problem with her next-door-neighbor. It started out with minor things like his sprinklers wetting her driveway. She complained and things escalated to the point where he slashed her tires and threatened to burn down her house with her in it. She put up a camera to film him in the act - the police showed him the video and he, having seen the video, figured out where the camera was, broke her window and stole the camera.

She eventually had to move away and sell the house to get away from this nut-job.

Maybe I'm just paranoid or I've been watching too much Sons of Anarchy, but do you really want to get into it with a porn star who probably knows some very disreputable people who could make your life difficult? Something to consider.

[EvilBilly]

I also wanted to make the community aware of a very generous offer I received the other day; EVW and Leviathan offered to produce a custom free of charge after hearing of my troubles with Angelique and Ted. I declined their kind offer with the thought of 'why should these folks lose time and resources over the unethical behavior of Angelique and Ted?'

While I have had several customs produced by Eve and Levi, I hadn't had one done in quite some time. They really didn't have to offer this, even if I were currently ordering from them. Nice to see that some good came from this.

[TIEnTEEZ]

I very much doubt PayPal will do anything.

But just so you know... I have been warned several times by producers and content providers that PayPal is not adult-content friendly. I've been specifically asked by a number of producers to avoid mentioning anything about what the payment is for when using PayPal. So if she's really pissed you off, you could explain to them exactly what you purchased from her and see if that makes any difference.

[avenger]

...and if anyone else is wondering, YES, this does happen more than you may think, but a lot of it goes uninvestigated because people are too embarassed to have to explain that they paid for a custom superheroine/bondage/fetish movie, and they'd rather take the loss than pursue legal action. If people realized that good investigators/detectives are already used to reading and dealing about these things, they'd perhaps feel more comfortable going to law enforcement and making a report. Sure, there are the handful of cops who may laugh and have a chuckle at you behind your back, but once the case is taken, the detective/investigator wants nothing more than to follow the trail and catch the bad guy, because nothing makes promotion better than closing cases. A crime is a crime no matter what the material, and a good detective team could care less about you wanting to see a superheroine carried or fondled, and grand larceny is not something to be taken lightly.....kithos has a lot to lose, literally and figuratively by not refunding his money.

[avenger]

going through paypal is probably the less painful route, but they're mediation at best. Paypal will play peacemaker and try to communicate with kithos and all she has to say is "I sent him what he paid for" and it's a he-said, she-said and maybe paypal will suspend her privilages. Whoa. No formal investigation, no IP address discovery, no banking or routing info checked, etc. Paypal is a slap on the wrist; a formal law enforcement investigation is a kick in the ass. A criminal investigation is serious and all options are on the table; I've even known the US Post Office to get involved in some matters. Look, I just hate to read about these things because I've dealt with it for several years. Evilbilly will do what's best for him but I wouldn't rule out using all the resources available. To Evilbilly: check with your local law enforcement and ask to meet with a white-collar crime detective or investigator and at least ask for advice on what you should/could do. At least making a complaint with paypal is a small step and I hope they refund your money. To kithos: you may want to quit while you're ahead at the moment and refund his money. He probably doesn't want an explanation at this point so that should spare you the need to lie. He wants his money back and it would probably be your best move to honor that.

[staggerlee]

I also wanted to make the community aware of a very generous offer I received the other day; EVW and Leviathan offered to produce a custom free of charge after hearing of my troubles with Angelique and Ted. I declined their kind offer with the thought of 'why should these folks lose time and resources over the unethical behavior of Angelique and Ted?'

While I have had several customs produced by Eve and Levi, I hadn't had one done in quite some time. They really didn't have to offer this, even if I were currently ordering from them. Nice to see that some good came from this.

Wow, what genuinely nice folks!!! I'm incredibly impressed by that.

[daphne]

That really sucks. Not knowing both sides of the story can be hard - not saying you are lying at all, maybe something catastrophic happened to said producer. But, most likely not.
Coming from a producer stand point, we have had shit happen, and yes, it sucks to have a customer not happy with a custom, and we do everything we can to make up for it, standard procedure is - Redo for free, or partial or even full refund.
Customer service is #1 in this business, and it is crucial to make the community happy.

If you are looking for a custom video - maybe you went to the wrong place *hint hint*

[xxxwarriorxxx]

Avenger you have some excellent points.

[AshleyGraham]

BTW... anyone else have anything in the works with Addie Juniper? Been waiting almost a month and sent at least 3 e-mails with no response. I want to give her the benefit of the doubt, but I'm starting to think I've been ripped off again.

Addies usually pretty good about things. I've worked with her frequently. You could try tweeting at her @AddieJuniper or @Brainwashxxx I think

[AshleyGraham]

This was just posted by Angelique on Facebook:

Officially announcing my semi-retirement from modeling and full retirement from fetish. More details coming soon December 2013

Interesting.

She's been saying that every few years for years and years. Just ask around.

[AshleyGraham]

I also wanted to make the community aware of a very generous offer I received the other day; EVW and Leviathan offered to produce a custom free of charge after hearing of my troubles with Angelique and Ted. I declined their kind offer with the thought of 'why should these folks lose time and resources over the unethical behavior of Angelique and Ted?'

While I have had several customs produced by Eve and Levi, I hadn't had one done in quite some time. They really didn't have to offer this, even if I were currently ordering from them. Nice to see that some good came from this.

Oh that's awesome. They're such a lovely couple

[TIEnTEEZ]

BTW... anyone else have anything in the works with Addie Juniper? Been waiting almost a month and sent at least 3 e-mails with no response. I want to give her the benefit of the doubt, but I'm starting to think I've been ripped off again.

Addies usually pretty good about things. I've worked with her frequently. You could try tweeting at her @AddieJuniper or @Brainwashxxx I think

Ugh. I'm not on Twitter.
It's really getting frustrating. Sent another e-mail a couple days ago and still nothing.

[Richpartist]

I also wanted to make the community aware of a very generous offer I received the other day; EVW and Leviathan offered to produce a custom free of charge after hearing of my troubles with Angelique and Ted. I declined their kind offer with the thought of 'why should these folks lose time and resources over the unethical behavior of Angelique and Ted?'

While I have had several customs produced by Eve and Levi, I hadn't had one done in quite some time. They really didn't have to offer this, even if I were currently ordering from them. Nice to see that some good came from this.

Oh that's awesome. They're such a lovely couple

If Evangeline is listening,I ......also paid for a custom and was cheated.Yeah.....that's right....that's what happened.Lets talk about that free custom!

[Centurion]

If this is Evangeline von Winter, don't get your hopes up. I also paid for a custom from her and got rooked. This was something on the order of two years ago! Mine was a softcore story, too, so it shouldn't have been too hard to do. I eventually told her to forget about it and just send me a couple of her regular videos. I'm still waiting for that, too!

[EvilBilly]

If this is Evangeline von Winter, don't get your hopes up. I also paid for a custom from her and got rooked. This was something on the order of two years ago! Mine was a softcore story, too, so it shouldn't have been too hard to do. I eventually told her to forget about it and just send me a couple of her regular videos. I'm still waiting for that, too!

I find that surprising; I have ordered about a half-dozen customs from her and Levi without a bobble. Maybe you could drop her a note reminding her?

[Richpartist]

I got a custom from Evangeline when she did that costume for a custom offer.I enjoyed it a lot It was later called SLEEPY WONDER


Richard

[EvilBilly]

According to PayPal it appears that Angelique & Ted are stating that they delivered the custom. As of this writing this is not true, unless I receive a download code tonight/over the weekend. PayPal has stated that they are verifying the validity of A&T's claim.

[Gus Goreman, Jr.]

Dude, you should totally look into suing these clowns! They know they're ripping you and could care less. I'm sure "kithos" isn't her real name but I bet it isn't that hard to find their real name or address. They make adult videos, there must be an custodian of records address on their 2255 postings.

[drh1966]

...

[drh1966]

Knowing her real name, you have so much ammunition. I just did a Google search on her and there's a ton of info. I say go after her. I'm sure she doesn't want her fetish activities mixing with her "real", more respectable life. She obviously hasn't thought this through.

[Mr. X]

On a slight side note. I love all my customers and I will wash your car and never do anything to harm you ever and I am not Walter Plumbottom of 1234 Wicker st, Hutchinson Kansas.

[Camvoy]

You can't fool me, Dr. Plumbottom! I know that sinister laugh and strut from anywhere! :P

[TIEnTEEZ]

She outed you? Yeah, that is just nuts. I mean, she may have taken your money, but outing one of her customers is just insane - she has a lot more to lose than you do, because no one will ever do business with her again.

Even if you don't pursue legal action, I would tell your story in as many forums as you can and make sure you get the word out.

If you haven't already, you should post on the SHIB forum, which is another big site for us superheroine pervs.

http://forum.shib.net

You could also go to some porn review sites like http://www.thebestporn.com/home.html and go to the Clips4Sale review and warn people to stay away. That's what I did.


On a different note, just in case anyone is wondering, I finally got a response from Addie Juniper by e-mailing her from a different address. Apparently, my e-mails from my regular address were going into her spam folder. Anyway, she apparently just completely forgot about my video. I asked for a refund and she gave it to me without too much fuss.

[AshleyGraham]

Knowing her real name, you have so much ammunition. I just did a Google search on her and there's a ton of info. I say go after her. I'm sure she doesn't want her fetish activities mixing with her "real", more respectable life. She obviously hasn't thought this through.

I doubt she'll care. She was arrested for pretty much the same thing she did to him

[kingles]

Knowing her real name, you have so much ammunition. I just did a Google search on her and there's a ton of info. I say go after her. I'm sure she doesn't want her fetish activities mixing with her "real", more respectable life. She obviously hasn't thought this through.

I doubt she'll care. She was arrested for pretty much the same thing she did to him

Well she's consistent anyway.

[admin]

Hey everyone,

I edited out the personal information on this thread. I realize you had a problem with her outing your information. I'd look into if that broke any laws since, as a producer and merchant, your name, address, CC#, etc are supposed to be private information.
Those who deal with financial transactions, credit cards, etc, are held to a different standard. But I digress.

I don't want to stifle conversation on this forum, but no outing of personal info. I realize she may have done it to you, but this isn't the venue for revenge.

[AshleyGraham]

According to PayPal it appears that Angelique & Ted are stating that they delivered the custom. As of this writing this is not true, unless I receive a download code tonight/over the weekend. PayPal has stated that they are verifying the validity of A&T's claim.

If I were you I'd contact my credit card company and have them reverse the charge as well as contacting paypal with screen caps of the other thread and her fb now and submit that to PayPal as evidence it wasn't delivered. They state blatantly in both places that they never sent the product. I would also contact a lawyer and see if there's any legal action to be taken due to her cheating you out of money and putting you. I know I would if someone outted me

[Visitor]

Trying to hire a lawyer is useless you can find enough other customers to make it a class action. Lawyers look at the amount that they can get for the hours needed to even start a case. If the damages are small they'll tell you to go to small claims court and do it yourself.

I found out the hard way with a medical malpractice case when no one would take the case not because I would lose, but the number of hours needed to prepare and cost for not enough claimable damages.

[Mr. X]

Lawyers are not going to do anything about porn stuff.

[Gus Goreman, Jr.]

You don't need a lawyer. Just take her to small claims court. You should also try to get your case on Judge Judy or Judge Joe Brown. That would be awesome.

[getoffthshed12000]

I'd report her to Facebook while you're at it. I'm sure it's a violation of their privacy policy to put other people's personal info on your profile (and if it's not, it should be). Hit her however you can. But take a screen capture of it first!

[Centurion]

If this is Evangeline von Winter, don't get your hopes up. I also paid for a custom from her and got rooked.

I find that surprising; I have ordered about a half-dozen customs from her and Levi without a bobble. Maybe you could drop her a note reminding her?

I don't know what happened in my case. She just suddenly stopped answering my emails. I reminded her a couple of times and finally forgot about it. Last January I happened to notice a new release she had done with Kithos, and I reminded her again. She offered me a refund, so I suppose the video never even got made. By this time I didn't care any more. I asked her to just send me some of her Supergirl videos instead. Still waiting...

[korda]

I have ordered a few customs over the years and never had any serious problems, just delays on the part of producers. Exposing your customers is the same as committing business suicide. Kithos is right about saying she's retired. She's just put herself out of business with this shit. My advice to EvilBilly is to hurt that person in her pockets. The first thing I would do is contact the C4S and try to shut down her store, but I have my doubts if they would be willing to accept your request. If I were them, I would not want to work with someone who expose their customers. Ultimately, boycotting and continue denouncing her in other fetish forums and lists can do almost the same effect in punishing her.

[MoreThanJustaCape]

If this is Evangeline von Winter, don't get your hopes up. I also paid for a custom from her and got rooked.

I find that surprising; I have ordered about a half-dozen customs from her and Levi without a bobble. Maybe you could drop her a note reminding her?

I don't know what happened in my case. She just suddenly stopped answering my emails. I reminded her a couple of times and finally forgot about it. Last January I happened to notice a new release she had done with Kithos, and I reminded her again. She offered me a refund, so I suppose the video never even got made. By this time I didn't care any more. I asked her to just send me some of her Supergirl videos instead. Still waiting…

You should contact her again.
I have had times when I had to email her 2 or three times but have never had her not come through.
If not you can also contact her husband who does all of the actual work.
Once I realized he works her site from home I have always gone straight to him and he comes through the same day.
I speak to him on Facebook almost daily.
Do you want to try and email him or do you want me to ask for you?

[EvilBilly]

I had been in fairly regular contact with Ted until a few weeks ago when the replies stopped.

[Richpartist]

I think Amazon has a sale on pitchforks and torches if anyone needs them

[Camvoy]

There's probably a fetish for that.