Why Yvonne Craig don`t talk about erotic in the show.

[Batfetish]

Yvonne Craig don`t like to talk about the erotic fetish in the batman show. But why. It is simple she was born 1937 nearly 30 years before the sexual movement. Bevor the sexual movement, sex was only for mariage and get children almost. Sexual fetish or games were tabu or simply not known. On the Batgirl Battrap Homepage Yvonne write in a mail because of the Siamese Human Knot there was no sexual tension or feeling, because on one pic you see Batman his hand between the legs of Batgirl. Do Ms Craig lie when she denied the erotic in the batman show? Yes and No? Today any kind of erotic undertone will be directly seen , because we are today much more liberal. I think Yvonne was very confused when she get sexual satifaction by this show. On some scene you can see her hard nipples and on other scene you see directly her cameltoe ( Patterncutter). She simply couldn`t identify her sexual feelings like me. A long time I ask my self why I get so horny about the classic Batman show. On the other side it`s cute how Ms. Craig denie it ( an ultra conservative girl in a super sexy Batgirl suit.) But we should simply understand the generation, when she was born and repsect her view or that she can`t define the erotic feeling in the show. I for example asked my self why I get so horny about the classic Batman show. I simply watched the Season 1 - 3 again and again and examine the erotic undetone. The erotic of the Batman show is difficult to identify but it is simpele. The contains any kind of erotic fetish, but is show as funny, ridicoulous, campy, BDSM, gay ( the view of today generation) BUT in a cover of a extremly conservative world, it`s all shown as a normal,logic, and serious act. This gives the Batman show a special not of erotic feitsh which until today untouchable.

What do you think? Did Ms Craig lie to her self when she negate the erotic in the show and the sexual pleasure to her self?

[Mr. X]

There are a lot of people who don't see things sexually. Sometimes the best characters are played by people who don't care one bit about the part. Deidra Hall is another example. She supposedly disliked playing Electra Woman. Linda Carter doesn't really say anything either about the fetishness of her role.

I've wondered if Craig ever dressed up as Batgirl for her husband or Carter dressed as Wonder Woman for her second husband. Supposedly Carter's second husband had never seen the show.

So yes its very likely Craig never cared about being Batgirl and had no sexuality towards it. I personally find this infuriating that some actress or model would be perfect for a character but doesn't care one bit about it. I'm sure to Craig it was probably just a paycheck.

Now one rumor I heard was that Burt Ward supposedly snatched the batgirl suit and hired a whore to dress as Batgirl (or supposedly HE wore the batgirl suit). Anyway Craig found out, completely went crazy and had a restraining order slapped on Ward. That's why you never see her and Ward together and if they do (like a reunion) she comes out very quickly, does the interview then leaves.

[MightyHypnotic]

Now one rumor I heard was that Burt Ward supposedly snatched the batgirl suit and hired a whore to dress as Batgirl (or supposedly HE wore the batgirl suit). Anyway Craig found out, completely went crazy and had a restraining order slapped on Ward. That's why you never see her and Ward together and if they do (like a reunion) she comes out very quickly, does the interview then leaves.

???

That's a new one on me. That would be pretty incredible if it were true.


I do know that Burt Ward messed around with one of the girls from the series, I think it was the blond who sends the dynamic duo to the basement in one of the Joker episodes. He woke up in the middle of the night after they had sex and she was wearing his Robin costume and acting really weird towards him, I THINK she might've had a knife or something...anyway, I believe he got a restraining order against HER.

Could that be the story? Eh, who knows. It's in his book, I'll have to dig it up.


But yeah, Yvonne Craig comes off sort of prudish not only as Batgirl but even in interviews and other roles and such, I don't think she would be clued in to how that character has developed into a fetish favorite. Or at least, not interested to know, anyway. And you're right she was a little past the sexual revolution at that point.
Although there is one scene that makes me wonder...
The Alvino Ray gun episode where Yvonne looks down at her chest and exclaims:

"I feel like I'm getting flat!" ("What a pity...")

They all had to be in on the joke for sure.



Most girls don't get it. I can't tell you how many girlfriends I had, before I ran my sites, that I would try to get to dress up just in SPANDEX, let alone a whole costume. And this was back in the 80's, when spandex was IN! We have a lot to be thankful for that we have girls that are willing to dress up and play these roles for us now, that's for sure.

[tallyho]

The other angle of course is that it was a JOB for them.

We can see the thirty or forty second clip as the end result and think 'thats hot' but it was the culmination of many hours of stop-start effort on the part of the actors and the film crews, and after a long day eroticism may have been far from their minds (well except Burt Ward's! )
Plus it was pitched as a kids show , so I suspect it was probably not discussed openly at the time by cast and crew as they were much more innocent days.

I personally would like to think she is honest - she did a job on a kids TV show, at face value there was no sexual agenda at the time, successive generations however now view her role in it and think 'I'd bang that seven ways 'til Sunday!'
Which is probably what our dads thought at the time , but no kid wants to fancy a gal that his dad likes so we pretend he didn't and she's all OURS to drool over in that SKIN TIGHT BODYSUIT!

[Mr. X]

But yeah, Yvonne Craig comes off sort of prudish not only as Batgirl but even in interviews and other roles and such, I don't think she would be clued in to how that character has developed into a fetish favorite. Or at least, not interested to know, anyway. And you're right she was a little past the sexual revolution at that point.

Yeah she actually seems "weird" to me. I was watching a Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea episode last week with her in it. (Ironically she had exactly the same hair style she wore as Barbara Gordon). She just seemed weird to me like her acting as the green chic in that star trek episode is how she acts in real life.

I've seen other actress do this stuff like Kirsten Dunst down playing her role as Mary Jane Watson in the spiderman movies. Or Charlice Theron (sp?) completely not caring about Aeon Flux. And lets not even mention Angelina Jolie. I can see not wanting to get type cast like Carter ended up being but you also don't stab your money bag in the back. I believe the blonde first assistant in the new Dr. Who episodes also claimed she hated the role and the fans. In fact it seems most actresses just flat out hate or denounce these roles yet without these roles they would NEVER be on the map to begin with. NOBODY would remember Craig if it wasn't for Batgirl.

One other thing could be these actresses down play this stuff simply cause they don't want creepy fans to stalk them or something. I've wondered of Carter gets asked if the chloro scenes turned her on which would be quite an uncomfortable question. Would anyone answer yes to that?

[Camvoy]

Not everyone can be Halle Berry.

[Batfetish]

Now one rumor I heard was that Burt Ward supposedly snatched the batgirl suit and hired a whore to dress as Batgirl (or supposedly HE wore the batgirl suit). Anyway Craig found out, completely went crazy and had a restraining order slapped on Ward. That's why you never see her and Ward together and if they do (like a reunion) she comes out very quickly, does the interview then leaves.

Burt Ward has style. I bet he really know how erotic batman show was and he enjoyed it.

[Batfetish]

Most girls don't get it. I can't tell you how many girlfriends I had, before I ran my sites, that I would try to get to dress up just in SPANDEX, let alone a whole costume. And this was back in the 80's, when spandex was IN! We have a lot to be thankful for that we have girls that are willing to dress up and play these roles for us now, that's for sure.

And she fits extremly good in that "SPANDEX". But I believe the was a special kind of spandex.

[Batfetish]

And you're right she was a little past the sexual revolution at that point.

But gives the Batgirl a special erotic kind. How bizarrre is it to put a very conservative girl in a supersexy Batgirl costume. It makes it somekind of erotic in a special way. Here are antipoles who comes together.

[Shakeshift]

The Batgirl costume was stolen by Burt Ward on the final day of shooting. Adam West had asked to keep two of his costumes, a stunt costume and a showpiece costume (for photography). Burt Ward and Yvonne Craig also asked if they could keep their costumes and the property department said it was fine.

On the final day of shooting (where they were in regular clothes, not costumes) Yvonne went to go get her Batgirl costume and the wardrobe department said that Burt Ward had already picked it up, allegedly for his girlfriend to wear. Yvonne flipped out and confronted Burt about it, and Burt denied having stolen it. A day later, they wrapped production and everyone went their separate ways.

Several years later, Burt Ward and Yvonne Craig are doing an equal-rights commercial for the USPS and they are having a hard time outfitting Yvonne in a Batgirl costume. Burt mentions that he has a 'personal' Batgirl costume of his own at home that might work for Yvonne. The next day Yvonne tries it on, and it's obviously her original Batgirl costume from the show. The one Burt stole. Burt however has the director and the stage manager waiting as soon as the commercial was over and Yvonne stepped back out of the dressing room, obviously placed there by Burt to make sure she doesn't leave with *his* Batgirl costume.

Lynda Carter has only publicly worn the WW costume twice since the show went off the air. She wore it for both of her kid's first-grade "Show and Tell" days. The reactions from the male teachers on those two days are allegedly in the overwhelming positive, especially when her second child has show-and-tell and everyone knew what Lynda would be wearing that day. Lynda said the principal came down to class to see her in it, as did the superintendent of schools and almost all the male faculty. According to her and designer Donfeld, the costume she was allowed to keep was one of the full ABC costumes since nobody wanted it after the move to CBS and Donfeld wanted a second crack at sexing up the costume by adding higher legs and more cleavage. A friend of mine who lives in Potomac, MD. (where I shoot most of my content) does outdoor and indoor pool maintenance for her home, and he told me that the WW costume is in a glass case on their first-floor living room, and completely intact.

Nowadays they don't let you keep the costumes from tv shows. People can sell a prolific costume on eBay for upwards of $30,000 easy. Erin Grey sold off almost all of her wet-look/shiny BUCK ROGERS spandex outfits for huge cash in the early 90's because she had to foresight to take them after the show wrapped and she started working on SILVER SPOONS. She always used them to supplement her income and keep the California residence she's had. Nice way to boost your income.

[Batfetish]

Several years later, Burt Ward and Yvonne Craig are doing an equal-rights commercial for the USPS and they are having a hard time outfitting Yvonne in a Batgirl costume. Burt mentions that he has a 'personal' Batgirl costume of his own at home that might work for Yvonne. The next day Yvonne tries it on, and it's obviously her original Batgirl costume from the show. The one Burt stole. Burt however has the director and the stage manager waiting as soon as the commercial was over and Yvonne stepped back out of the dressing room, obviously placed there by Burt to make sure she doesn't leave with *his* Batgirl costume.

My english is not so good, but did Yvonne Craig keep " his" Batgirl costume or didn`t she never get the original back.

[Shakeshift]

Nope, Burt Ward still owns the original Batgirl suit. It's still in fantastic shape by all accounts. His wife (a millionaire heiress who operates an animal rescue business in California) and he starred in a movie together in the 90's called ASSAULT OF THE PARTY NERDS 2 and she used to talk about the BG costume Burt owned, implying (but never directly stating) that she sometimes wears it if he asks.

[Mr. X]

I did see a show with Craig and West and Gorshin where they asked about Ward and Craig said she had a restraining order against him but part of the order was she could not discuss the issue and that was why they never appear together.

[tamonicus]

Nowadays they don't let you keep the costumes from tv shows. People can sell a prolific costume on eBay for upwards of $30,000 easy. Erin Grey sold off almost all of her wet-look/shiny BUCK ROGERS spandex outfits for huge cash in the early 90's because she had to foresight to take them after the show wrapped and she started working on SILVER SPOONS. She always used them to supplement her income and keep the California residence she's had. Nice way to boost your income.

Funny you should mention Erin Gray. In a recent interview, she said she was very aware of the effect her spandex outfit had on men of a certain age -- me being among them.

I also read somewhere that Deidre Hall got permission to wear her ElectraWoman costume one last time to a niece's birthday party. Things went well until they asked her to fly. Oh, to be strolling past that house at that time...

[Mr. X]

Someone I know owns one of the 5 wonder woman suits (the last one).

[Shakeshift]

Yeah, Ken's WW costume though is a WW stunt costume. Still very nice though.

[Maskfan]

Now one rumor I heard was that Burt Ward supposedly snatched the batgirl suit and hired a whore to dress as Batgirl (or supposedly HE wore the batgirl suit). Anyway Craig found out, completely went crazy and had a restraining order slapped on Ward. That's why you never see her and Ward together and if they do (like a reunion) she comes out very quickly, does the interview then leaves.

???

That's a new one on me. That would be pretty incredible if it were true.


I do know that Burt Ward messed around with one of the girls from the series, I think it was the blond who sends the dynamic duo to the basement in one of the Joker episodes. He woke up in the middle of the night after they had sex and she was wearing his Robin costume and acting really weird towards him, I THINK she might've had a knife or something...anyway, I believe he got a restraining order against HER.

Could that be the story? Eh, who knows. It's in his book, I'll have to dig it up.

If memory serves, the blonde he messed around with was supposedly Marta Kristen, aka Judy Robinson from "Lost In Space".

[cdrei]

Having read Yvonne's book and web postings, as well as every interview I've ever been able to find, I don't think she comes across as a prude. She seems to have a relaxed and somewhat amused attitude toward sex, tolerant and frank without being graphic. With respect to her fans and any sexualized regard for Batgirl, she laughs in an interview about it, basically suggesting that our preoccupations seem suitable for someone who is "about twelve". She says of her first marriage that they married too young because they were "in lust". Ultimately, she comes across as someone who is perfectly comfortable with sexuality, but is personally either not terribly interested at this point or simply doesn't feel it should be anyone's business. She is aware of Batgirl fan sites which eroticize the character to various extents, associating that tone with images of the actress in her role, and she tolerates their existence and doesn't try to have them shut down, although she has apparently made it clear that she regards such things with some distaste. The impression I've had is that she's just a private person about some things, which doesn't seem like an unreasonable thing for anyone to be. I think Yvonne also mentions in her autobiography that Burt took the Batgirl outfit to have his girlfriend dress up for public appearances.

I think there is some reason to think that some of the production team or writers may have understood a sexually titillating aspect of the show. As for the performers, IIRC Adam and Burt have told some stories. Burt's own book is full of erotic anecdotes (Yvonne wrote the forward to that book, BTW, and again does not come off as a prude). The anecdotes are more about the swinging lives of late sixties celebrities than they are anything related to the show itself, however, and there doesn't seem to be much of a connection between the content or themes of the show and those anecdotes. I think both Burt and Yvonne mention the Siamese Human Knot scene at times. The crew reacted with somewhat lascivious humor, Burt seems to have found it titillating, and Yvonne IIRC told the crew to "grow up". There's no indication that Yvonne's remark was made in irritation; it seems more along the lines of "Oh, you silly people. We're here to do a job. Let's do it well." Which seems like a reasonable attitude for the performers to have had, overall.

I suppose one could try to read between the lines in Yvonne's book, to glean her true feelings about things. She mentions two cases in which apparent sexual advances were made inappropriately and she rebuffed them rather than advance her career through them. She disparages Richard Burton for having had a dismissively "sexist" attitude when he met her (quotes used because it's her term in the book, not because I have any reason to disagree, particularly based on the limited information she gives us). She mentions with some apparent pride the fact that her husband's interest in her, upon their first meeting, wasn't based on any of her media appearances. She acknowledges that she was often cast for sex appeal and that roles dried up once she was too old for that, and she seems to have no problem with that fact. She's variously said that she was cast as Batgirl because she could ride a motorcycle, could do her own stunts, and/or because she has "a cartoon voice". It's probably reasonable to assume that there's a clear subtext that she was also cast because she looked good in tights, but that's not a point on which she ever comments.

I think there is something inherently sexy about the show, but that tends to be the case whenever physically fit and attractive young people wear tight-fitting clothes in film or television. The entertainment industry sells us sex appeal endlessly, and I suspect the performers and producers all recognize this and are at least comfortable enough with that fact to keep doing it. I do sometimes wonder if the bondage and traps were played up a bit with some kinky intent. Maybe that's just because Yvonne always looks a bit like she might break out laughing in those scenes, like Bettie Page allegedly did during Irving Klaw shoots. Intentional or not, I think it's clear that the Batman show helped bring bondage and kinks into the mainstream awareness. Even Life magazine caught on to that, I guess.

Umm. Sorry to be so long. TL/DR, right? I'm babbling, as usual.

[Heroine Addict]

This is slightly OT, but it turns out the 'research' which led to the downfall of EC's Horror comics, the introduction of the Comics Code and the creation of DC's female Bat characters was hokum. (Although we knew that already.)

For example, in “Seduction [of the Innocent],” Wertham links “Batman” comic books to the case of a 13-year-old boy on probation and receiving counseling for sexual abuse of another boy: “Like many other homo-erotically inclined children, he was a special devotee of Batman: ‘Sometimes I read them over and over again. … It could be that Batman did something with Robin like I did with the younger boy.’ ”

What Tilley found in Wertham’s notes, however, was that the boy preferred “Superman,” “Crime Does Not Pay” and “war comics” over “Batman,” and that he had previously been sexually assaulted by the other boy – all information that Wertham left out.

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2013/02/11/ ... ut-comics/

But without Dr Fredric Wertham's lies and the hysterical reaction to them, we would probably never have seen Kathy Kane, Betty Kane and later Barbara Gordon. Funny how something good can come out of something so bad.

[avenger]

re: Shakeshift's posting above in regards to Lynda's WW costume: you are correct in that she has the costume displayed in a glass frame; it's the first season costume that a fan put together and presented to her, from what I understand (I work in Montgomery County and have been to her house a few times) and she does have an original second/third season costume hung upstairs, as she did an article and interview showing that she hangs one up. I've met her family and they are as polite and down to Earth as you can be considering the neighborhood they live in. I've met them a few times because of my job, and always being in uniform, never mentioned the show unless SHE brought it up. I do have to wonder (no pun intended) if she still wears the costume now and then because I recall a situation where I responded to a neighbor's house and one of their little kids was telling me how "Wonder Woman lives next door" so that makes me think that little kid either watches reruns of the show, or knows Lynda was/is WW, but this little girl (about 3 years ago) seemed to be about 6 or 7 years old. Without giving away too much, I do know she's had her share of creepers and stalkers over the years, and some of her die-hard fans have posted pics of themselves outside her residence gate with house number on it, and I've also gone to her neighbor's house for reports of suspicious behavior, which usually turns out to be rabid fans trying to take pics from the neighbor's property or from the woods. Just for humor's sake, I will say that a co-worker did get a report of someone going through her garbage cans, as gross or strange as it sounds, this particular individual went through their garbabge cans probably looking for souvenirs or worn panties or something, and as there's really no law against going through trash, it was very creepy and unusual and this 'fan' went about his way. Lynda and her family have to deal with the die-hard fans and other male admirers that want more than just a photo, so being WW has taken its toll after all these years. Her neighbors are very friendly people as well, and they also deal with a lot of determined fans climbing fences and trees to get a pic of Lynda and/or her house. As far as the costume goes, I've only been through the main entrance and ground floor of their house inside, and saw a few book shelves and trophy cases that have some WW items like video tapes, a tiara and some framed set and cast photos. I can only imagine what her husband has to put up with sometimes, concerning the crazy die-hard fans and the ones who have more creepy intentions.

[Shakeshift]

Potomac is one of the hardest Washington DC suburbs to crack unless you happen to be filthy rich, a politician, or an industrial shareholder. The whole community where she lives is heavily guarded and patrolled, plus all those gates to circumvent....

[Shakeshift]

Potomac is one of the hardest Washington DC suburbs to crack unless you happen to be filthy rich, a politician, or an industrial shareholder. The whole community where she lives is heavily guarded and patrolled, plus all those gates to circumvent....

[avenger]

Shake, you're absolutely correct my friend. There are parts of Potomac that are well-to-do that aren't gated and then there's where Lynda lives. For obvious reasons I won't say which part in Potomac she lives, but her immediate area is the epitome of wealth on steroids. You have to have a pretty good reason to be over there; there are parts that you just can't drive around and up to. There are obviously other notable celebrities that live over there, which I can't name, but it's pretty common knowledge that Redskins owner Dan Snyder has a nice home overlooking the river there in Potomac. I admire your work, Shake, and have actually seen a few movies myself, but just a friendly word of caution if you do ever venture over to where Lynda lives: be prepared to explain yourself when/if you ever get stopped by security because they don't play; aside from the expected security cameras, they are a very efficient (and sometimes overzealous) security service that has to deal with a lot of crazy fans and stalkers and creepers, etc., so just be prepared to be stopped by security and expect a visit from MCPD! I'd hate to meet you like that, but that's just the area you're dealing with, fyi. I know years ago her management used to publish her events and tour schedule but she was advised (with good reasons) to not make her touring / events schedule so public anymore because some seriously die-hard and not-so-friendly people noticed that and tried to get on her property. To the best of my knowledge, there hasn't been anyone armed or seriously crazy or dangerous that ever got close to her. And oh, when I say 'crazy fans' I don't mean any disrespect to her loyal and loving fans, but there are those who just can't seem to stay away or take no for an answer; those are the ones I refer to as 'crazy'. And the one guy who went through her three garbage cans looking for.....whatever.

[flash]

Appearances

Yvonne will be doing a personal appearance in Winnipeg, Canada along with Adam West and Burt Ward in April 2013. Show is April 6th and 7th and she will be there both days. The link to their website to give you more information is http://www.c4con.com/. Hope to see you there. This will be Yvonne’s first Canada convention, so she is definitely looking forward to it.

On September 27th, 28th & 29th you can meet Yvonne in person all three days at Monster Mania, which will be held at the Hunt Valley Inn in Hunt Valley Maryland. Adam West, Burt Ward and Lee Meriwether will also be in attendance along with some surprise guests. Check out their website for other guests and information at http://www.monstermania.net or go to http://www.66batman.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=613 for up-dated batman information regarding this convention.

[batgirl1969]

Maybe its just me and my warped sense of reality but i dont see how you couldnt get at least a little aroused if you were strapped to the pattern cutter in that scene...bound gagged and teased by an equally lucious catwoman...her hands almost caressing that purple skin tight clad body as you struggle...i know that would send me into an instant state of arousal...but then again i am a freak so...lol....but seriously it had to be thrilling...being man and woman handled as she was....just the act of bondage is taboo and erotic....

[Shakeshift]

Avenger, I totally understand. I've been there before but mostly it's because Amazing Panda Productions used to be located in Potomac, so we were only a short drive from her house and we had mutual well-to-do friends who lived *very* close to her home. It's a non-issue to meet her in person since she's put all of that long behind her and has moved on with her life. Unlike Adam West who can chat endlessly about his days on BATMAN, Lynda doesn't really indulge her fans with a lot of WW talk. I think in the end it'd be counterproductive and truthfully.... just a little sad.

[flash]

I think these actresses are embarrassed about the roles they played in their younger years.

[avenger]

Shake, the few times I did meet her it was under professional reasons, but WW never came up, at least by me. When I worked in Alexandria, VA I met fitness guru Denise Austin several times and she is known to have a house in Alexandria and she's had her share of whacko perverts and admirers as well, but her house is nowhere close to being gated and secure as Lynda's. Denise Austin had her share of male admirers (young and old) who have hung out on her street hoping to get a pic of her or her daughters and every now and then a call would come in about someone trying to get a glimps of her pool area. Being celebrity, it just comes with the business, I suppose. I have to imagine Lynda's also aware of all the porn parodies, fetish groups, yahoo clubs, and numerous bondage / fetish movies that are out there relating to her and Wonder Woman. Given that almost everyone has access to social media, various forums and the internet, it's hard to believe that she's NOT aware of all the sexy WW stuff in this genre...

[cdrei]

But without Dr Fredric Wertham's lies and the hysterical reaction to them, we would probably never have seen Kathy Kane, Betty Kane and later Barbara Gordon. Funny how something good can come out of something so bad.

One gets the sense that they weren't so much lies as drastic misinterpretations, touched with hysteria. But that could be wrong. Now that the CCA is behind us, the comics historians I've read seem to take a less reactive (not to say paranoid) stance on Wertham. The culture was changing during that period and there was a lot of looking for causes, with attendant scapegoating. Wertham seems to have believed what he was stating and to have felt his cause was good and that he was helping children and society. Comics were going through a shift anyway. Sales had been boosted during the war because the troops read comics, but once the war ended and the culture began to settle down, comics were once again perceived more as kiddie stuff. Sales were dropping off and various superheroes vanished before Wertham came along. He arguably harmed the industry, but the CCA also helped shape the silver and bronze ages and helped form the modern conception of the superhero.

While Batwoman and Bat-girl were created almost in direct response to Wertham, I'm not convinced that the addition of Batgirl in the later sixties can be seen as part of the same trend. Dozier wanted a new character to help boost the show after the second season. DC may have been adding the character anyway. I've never read any statement by anyone involved with the creation of the Barbara Gordon Batgirl which would suggest that anyone ever considered the pre-existing female Bat characters during the process. They'd been dropped from the comics years before and the connection we now seem to draw between Batgirl and Bat-girl wasn't really there until years later. Now it's common to call Betty Kane "the first Batgirl", but I never encountered that idea at all until about five years ago. They were considered wholly separate entities before that, and I've never seen any evidence to conclude that Bat-girl had anything to do with the creation of Batgirl. If there is such evidence out there, I would very much like to see it, to better understand the history.

[cdrei]

I think these actresses are embarrassed about the roles they played in their younger years.

Perhaps embarrassed and a bit frustrated. If you've been a serious performer, or at least tried to be, it must be frustrating if your cultural legacy turns out to be that you looked really good in tights when you were a youngster. Yvonne was a ballerina before she was an actress, and she starred in several films and had loads of television appearances during her career. She seems to embrace her time as Batgirl, even if mainly as a business decision, but she did a great deal more than that. Yet Mr. X is right, in that she's barely remembered for anything except Batgirl and one episode of Star Trek, at this point. Does anyone even remember Mars Needs Women, now? Her Elvis films, the Gidget appearance? Her acting career was ultimately unspectacular, and she seems resigned to that fact.

It must also be frustrating to have a strong career during one's youth, but have that dry up once one becomes too old to play the ingenue. And then have to listen to people tell you, "Wow, you were HOT, back in the day!" For fifty years.

[flash]

I'm surprised Burt Ward is still in the game...didn't he marry into wealth? I don't think he needs the money.
On the other hand, I remember when I worked in Beverly Hills during the early 1980s and Yvonne would come to our office to show a prospective tenant our office when she was a leasing agent for a luxurious commercial property company.

[Shakeshift]

Yeah, he married a millionaire heiress who was really REALLY into animal rescue, so that's what they do now. They have an animal adoption agency up in the California redwoods. Nice job if you can get it.

[GMan2]

I think these actresses are embarrassed about the roles they played in their younger years.

Embarrassed??? I wouldn't say that. Frustrated....Now that I could see them being. Frustrated that they've been stuck with the type casting of them in one particular role that they had at early stages of their careers. Lynda Carter fought her WW persona for years afterwards. But no matter what she attempted to do, whether it was her singing career or other acting jobs, she was always recognized as "Wonder Woman". Hell, even when her Husband was being tried in the US Courts....What was the media reporting???? Wonder Woman in court!!!

I can certainly understand why, if it was true that she said it, some years back now, not recently, but Catherine Zeta Jones expressing NO interest in doing Wonder Woman on the 'big screen', due to her being afraid of being type cast to the character.

[Batfetish]

Maybe its just me and my warped sense of reality but i dont see how you couldnt get at least a little aroused if you were strapped to the pattern cutter in that scene...bound gagged and teased by an equally lucious catwoman...her hands almost caressing that purple skin tight clad body as you struggle...i know that would send me into an instant state of arousal...but then again i am a freak so...lol....but seriously it had to be thrilling...being man and woman handled as she was....just the act of bondage is taboo and erotic....

You are not alone, I feel the same. The Batman Show is the best most intelligent erotic fetish ever produced. The potential is incredible high, because it would touch many people who are living in culture which are extremly antierotic. It is perfect altenative.

[Aisbeforeyou]

I would say that yes, she is lying to someone.
I am a big fan of The Avengers with Emma Peel as Steeds sidekick. Emma Peel was a sexual and fetish icon of the time, and Diana Rigg was the sexiest woman alive for a time.
Reading her biography, she touches a few bases on The Avengers, an incredibly erotic show, about how they were running through writers like water, because they would always put her in fetish situations.
Diana was born in '38, when asked about it she embraced all of the erotic situations given to her and even practiced them in her personal life.
Yvonne Craig seems to me to just be a very sexy niave girl.
I loved her in Kissing Cousins, if I recall, that also was a very sexy movie. And she seemed to embrace the role and innuendos.
So I would think that she is either lying to herself or more importantly, us.

[Batfetish]

I would say that yes, she is lying to someone.
I am a big fan of The Avengers with Emma Peel as Steeds sidekick. Emma Peel was a sexual and fetish icon of the time, and Diana Rigg was the sexiest woman alive for a time.
Reading her biography, she touches a few bases on The Avengers, an incredibly erotic show, about how they were running through writers like water, because they would always put her in fetish situations.
Diana was born in '38, when asked about it she embraced all of the erotic situations given to her and even practiced them in her personal life.
Yvonne Craig seems to me to just be a very sexy niave girl.
I loved her in Kissing Cousins, if I recall, that also was a very sexy movie. And she seemed to embrace the role and innuendos.
So I would think that she is either lying to herself or more importantly, us.

You are so right, about Yvonne Craig. I mean it is somehow sweet how she denied the fetish, but think about you would show the 3. Episode of the batman show today infront of 12 years old children. They would directly see the erotic feitsh and many children would giggle, if Yvonne deny the erotic fetish. It`s somehow sad that she denie the erotic of the show, because brings the fetish and BDSM in funny and colourful way into the households and to the family. Everyone has its fun. For children it is a action show and the adult see the show in their eyes.

[Mr. X]

I would say that yes, she is lying to someone.
I am a big fan of The Avengers with Emma Peel as Steeds sidekick. Emma Peel was a sexual and fetish icon of the time, and Diana Rigg was the sexiest woman alive for a time.
Reading her biography, she touches a few bases on The Avengers, an incredibly erotic show, about how they were running through writers like water, because they would always put her in fetish situations.
Diana was born in '38, when asked about it she embraced all of the erotic situations given to her and even practiced them in her personal life.
Yvonne Craig seems to me to just be a very sexy niave girl.
I loved her in Kissing Cousins, if I recall, that also was a very sexy movie. And she seemed to embrace the role and innuendos.
So I would think that she is either lying to herself or more importantly, us.

Yeah good point. If she was against sexy roles why did she end up in them? Always a damsel. Or the erotic dancing green chick on star trek. If she was so adverse to such roles then why always end up in them. I can understand wanting to work but other actresses found different roles. June Lockheart wasn't bad looking and she ended up in supportive mom/wife roles.

[Aisbeforeyou]

I would think that by denying it, it's more of her looking back and remembering all that she did and embracing it. There is no way that a young girl in the 60's would do such things and not realize what was happening. Diana Rigg still receives graphic fan mail, how could Yvonne Craig not got a single letter from a horny teen? I doubt it. I think that she is older and wiser now and playing dumb, ashamed of playing in such roles.

[Batfetish]

I would think that by denying it, it's more of her looking back and remembering all that she did and embracing it. There is no way that a young girl in the 60's would do such things and not realize what was happening. Diana Rigg still receives graphic fan mail, how could Yvonne Craig not got a single letter from a horny teen? I doubt it. I think that she is older and wiser now and playing dumb, ashamed of playing in such roles.

It is somehow sad, how she is ashamed of her role. The role somekind sensational in fetish and sexy costume. When you pay attention, you can see that in some scene she had hard nipples or you see a cameltoe. I think she had her sexual pleasur. She should be proud to played such a sexy chick like Batgirl.

[Batfetish]

I think Yvonne Craig lies to her self when she denied the erotic

[youtube][/youtube]

[Mr. X]

Actually what is she supposed to say? She's in her elderly years now. She probably doesn't want to come off creepy or attract a lot of "unwanted" fans. I think it would be a bit silly to drone on about it.

[cdrei]

Yvonne certainly has never given any indication that she found anything on Batman erotic, and it would seem out of character for her to suggest such a thing about anything in her career. I'm not sure a practiced professional performer would have any reason to respond that way during a scene. I mean, there's method acting, I guess, but I don't think Yvonne was method -- and there's no reason for Yvonne's Batman scenes to be interpreted that way anyway, within the context of the series and the story. I think one should draw a line between the performer and the character portrayed, and be aware of the possibility of projecting one's own interests or feelings on to either of them. But that's just me.

[theScribbler]

....On the Batgirl Battrap Homepage Yvonne write in a mail because of the Siamese Human Knot there was no sexual tension or feeling....

Please link to this "mail" you say Yvonne wrote that says what you claim. It's possibly true, but I could not find it.

---

Yvonne Craig has done lots of sexy roles (see her bio). Her bathing suit (including bikini) modeling is also darn sexy. I've not seen anywhere where she says she's ashamed of them, or anything close to that. If this info exists, from her words (writings, interviews, etc.), please link me.

Not every hot actress or model who takes on a gig (aka job) where they get tied up, are bound in any fashion (siamese knot!, pattern cutter!), gets turned on by it. This is true even in porn.

And no matter how sexy a scene might look in a movie, TV show, the actual production with lights, cameras, crew, and all that occurs on a production set, those who have never been there may not realize how much of a business workday type feel it has and not the fun, sexual turn-on experience it might look like on film/video.

[cdrei]

@theScribbler:

Well stated.

Yvonne's e-mail comments to TwoF are difficult to locate. The Bat Trap Homepage is a nice resource, but a bit of a maze.

Using Google advanced search for "Yvonne Craig knot" on the http://batgirlbat-trap.com/ domain, I found the following comments by Yvonne on the SHK....

http://www.angelfire.com/va/1966Batman/episodes6.html

"We had a horrible time getting into it," said Yvonne Craig about the Siamese human knot, "because Burt is inflexible. They would say, get closer, get closer guys. We had to stay that way for rather a long time and he was complaining that it hurt. I said, 'It's supposed to hurt.'"

http://batgirlbat-trap.com/omake/charlieshk.html

Yvonne Craig, Adam West and Burt Ward assumed at least three different positions during the Siamese Human Knot. Ms. Craig wrote:
"We all just kinda jumped in and got tangled up together. It wasn't scripted to put any body parts any certain place at any time."

Burt had this to say:

http://batgirlbat-trap.com/twof1/theatershk2010.html

Taking a clinching position with Yvonne and Adam before the shot, with our arms and legs intricately and tightly interwoven, was hilarious and titillating. Adam, wild man that he is, playfully began groping me on the legs and buttocks. At first I thought it was Yvonne (or maybe I just wished it) and didn't resist, but Yvonne is a classy lady who would never stoop to such perversion.

I can't find any suggestion of a statement by Yvonne on the site which would relate more directly to any erotic or sensual associations with the SHK or other traps. Such a thing may be there, somewhere. I think Burt's assessment of Yvonne really says it all, in the quote I copied, above.

[Mr. X]

One other thing I notice about the actresses and actors who get typed cast is the NEVER look any different no matter what role they take anyway. For example Linda Carter ALWAYS looks the same. Heck Craig had the same exact hair style in a Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea episode that she had as Barbara Gordon in Batman. The guy who played clark kent on Smallville ALWAYS looks the same. So one thing I think hurts them is they NEVER look different nor act different. Craig ALWAYS acted and looked the same.

[cdrei]

One other thing I notice about the actresses and actors who get typed cast is the NEVER look any different no matter what role they take anyway. For example Linda Carter ALWAYS looks the same. Heck Craig had the same exact hair style in a Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea episode that she had as Barbara Gordon in Batman. The guy who played clark kent on Smallville ALWAYS looks the same. So one thing I think hurts them is they NEVER look different nor act different. Craig ALWAYS acted and looked the same.

They could have been cast for that specific look or basic portrayal. Why didn't the design or makeup personnel vary their appearances, why didn't the production team or director expect appearance and/or performance to be changed? I'm not sure the performers would necessarily have been empowered to vary these things, although they could have been. They could also have been expected to vary these, and may have thought they did, whether it was successfully accomplished, from our perspective, or not.

When I watch clips from Gidget and Mars Needs Women and Whom Gods Destroy alongside clips of Yvonne doing Barbara Gordon and Batgirl, I do see differences in the various portrayals. Could I express what I think I see well enough to argue the point intelligently on the internet? Not really. I also see similarities, and I think I understand what you're saying. As far as Yvonne is concerned, she wasn't formally trained as an actor and seems to have fallen into it almost accidentally and then learned on the job, for the most part. She does acknowledge the limits of her acting ability, as well. I'm afraid I don't know enough about the careers of others discussed in this thread to say much about them.

(On edit: Try watching the Batgirl pilot, which can be seen on youtube. There, Yvonne plays Batgirl more as she'd hoped to, and there may be more obvious differences between her Barbara and Batgirl. It is not necessarily good and the portrayals may or may not work, ultimately, but there may be more evident differences. )

I think you have a good point, but I my agreement would perhaps be with a less absolute version of your observation. If and when differences do exist, they may be subtle or underplayed.

[cdrei]

I would say that yes, she is lying to someone.
I am a big fan of The Avengers with Emma Peel as Steeds sidekick. Emma Peel was a sexual and fetish icon of the time, and Diana Rigg was the sexiest woman alive for a time.
Reading her biography, she touches a few bases on The Avengers, an incredibly erotic show, about how they were running through writers like water, because they would always put her in fetish situations.
Diana was born in '38, when asked about it she embraced all of the erotic situations given to her and even practiced them in her personal life.
Yvonne Craig seems to me to just be a very sexy niave girl.
I loved her in Kissing Cousins, if I recall, that also was a very sexy movie. And she seemed to embrace the role and innuendos.
So I would think that she is either lying to herself or more importantly, us.

Yeah good point. If she was against sexy roles why did she end up in them? Always a damsel. Or the erotic dancing green chick on star trek. If she was so adverse to such roles then why always end up in them. I can understand wanting to work but other actresses found different roles. June Lockheart wasn't bad looking and she ended up in supportive mom/wife roles.

http://matineeclassics.com/celebrities/ ... g/details/

For what it's worth (perhaps little ), Yvonne Craig's roles covered a wider range than we typically recall. She was not cast as and did not portray a femme fatale or sex kitten in all of the cases listed at the link, but she was and did, in many. Those are perhaps more memorable than the others.

Transcribed from the conclusion, in her autobiography:

The end of my show business career sneaked up on me. I never made that crucial transition to playing a mom. I had been typed as sexy, which in itself, was strange to me. I think it had more to do with physical attributes than attitude, as I've always considered myself 'one of the guys.'

As ever, I don't know enough about the careers of other performers to comment on them. I'm not necessarily trying to defend Yvonne or her career, but I at least know a bit about them, and what knowledge I have may be able to help broaden the context of a discussion which may at times be generalizing from inadequate information.

[Biorider]

Thanks for your wonderful posts, cdrei. They're very insightful and informative. Such a good read.

[cdrei]

Thanks for your wonderful posts, cdrei. They're very insightful and informative. Such a good read.

Thanks, Biorider. Nice to see another Bat Board denizen. I wish such engaging conversations could still be had at that site.

I'm not trying to dominate or derail this thread. I probably wouldn't have as much to say, if we were discussing the characters, here. Batgirl is a fictional character, who lives in our imaginations and can be anything we want. Yvonne Craig portrayed Batgirl as a job, for one year of her life, and is a real person. A real person is a fact, existing outside of our heads, and is not composed of imagination. Facts don't reflect our subjective impressions of them, don't magically transform because of our interpretations. Since they exist out there in the real world, we can research facts -- such as real, existing people -- and reach informed opinions about them, rather than just answering every question about them with wish-fulfillment. Discussions about imaginary characters and those concerning real people should perhaps have slightly different boundaries.

When we are deeply engaged by fiction, perhaps investing ourselves emotionally in the content, it can be easy to lose track of that crucial divide between the real and the imaginary. I've been there myself, at times, and perhaps I will be again, in the future. Right now I'm aware of the difference, however, and it seems worthwhile to at least try to remind folks that the difference exists and can be important. One does get the sense that few may be listening, but that's okay. I skim past my share of posts, and let's face it: I babble so much that my point may not be very clear, most of the time.

On edit: Possibly the above seems a bit snide, now that I read it back. It is not a comment on the majority of posts in the thread or on this board, but I think it is somewhat pertinent to the actual topic of the thread.

I'm-a shut up now.

[Shakeshift]

I'm not trying to dominate or derail this thread. I probably wouldn't have as much to say, if we were discussing the characters, here. Batgirl is a fictional character, who lives in our imaginations and can be anything we want. Yvonne Craig portrayed Batgirl as a job, for one year of her life, and is a real person. A real person is a fact, existing outside of our heads, and is not composed of imagination. Facts don't reflect our subjective impressions of them, don't magically transform because of our interpretations or wish fulfillment.

One of the biggest problems with comic geeks and nerds is that they take the wish fulfillment portion TOO far. They see 'obvious' patterns of suggestive like-minded behavior where none really exists. They suffer from the worst parts of apophenia. Anyone who has talked to Yvonne Craig for longer than five minutes can draw their own conclusions as to whether she found any of this sexy. Someone needs to write out a reality check for these conspiracy people. Truly.