Void wrote:I pretty much agree with all of that.
I don't think you *need* to relate to the villain. Kind of like the inverse of the hero, the villain can be a character that is uniquely unlike us - just in the opposite way that the hero is - and our inability to understand what drives them can make them quite compelling characters. Villains you can relate to are also good, but I wouldn't discount villains that we can't relate with - common consensus seems to love these characters, though that is starting to change. Much of it all depends on what their actions are and what their motivations are - the two need to be consistent with one another - and that will determine if we can understand them. There comes a point, if their actions or their intentions are especially horrific or obscure, that we simply cannot relate with or understand them - but I think that's fine, and I wouldn't worry about it being a black mark against the character. I agree villains can consider their actions as being justified, but it becomes a thorny road if they consider it *morally* justified. Depends on what sort of story you're telling.
For me, good villains are interesting characters who bring some gravitas to the scenes they are in. It isn't so much about their moral qualities as it is about their presence and effect upon the story. As long as their character is consistent, I'm not sure I have a preference one way or the other about how 'decent' they are. Being more specific to this genre, possibly the most important thing about the villain, and the thing readers will define them for (probably) is the peril they pose to the heroine. If they pose and represent their peril very well, then they'll probably be a successful character regardless of literally everything else about them. I can't agree more with LG's closing point - cunning villains are infinitely more interesting and useful to me than brute force villains. Brutes have their place - and can be fantastic - but I'll always prefer the more cunning types. Starting to veer off topic, but I prefer cunning peril to brute peril, if that makes any sense at all.
Hey Void:
When I say "Relate" to a villain, I do not mean make the reader say "I could do that" I mean make the reader understand the characters motivation, justification, and maybe on some level, smile to himself and say "yea there's a person or two I which that could happen to... Now what you suggest, our inability to understand what drive the antagonist, that's just another form of villain, driven by forces unknown.
You pretty much summarized what i wanted to say fairly well, I think Antagonists like "The Joker" have the same appeal as "The Hulk" the fantasy of a total release from restriction of society, to do things with brute force, and without regard to consequence, to people who, for whatever reason, upset us. But again the intent is not to say this kind of character is bad, rather this kind of character ALL THE TIME doesn't work, and can be a crutch for the writer...Hey I can't think of a way to Justify the antagonist, or I don't want to take the time so I just make a "Joker" he does it because...well it's just HIM.
*MY* Personal favorite Villain, is what I term the Ambitious opportunist. An example of this was in the "Thor" Comics, His brother Loki. Loki spent issue after issue, trying to bring to earth (and control) the Fire and Frost Giants. He created his own opportunity, however Due to Thor's fight, Loki lost control of the Giants.....
At the very point where the Giants were about to Snuff Loki's HATED brother Thor, Who arrives to save him, but Loki.... who gives one of the greatest lines I ever read
The Giant says to Loki "Why are you opposing us, you HATE Thor"
Loki replies: "What you think I want to rule over a frozen burnt out cinder!?"
And So Loki again created his own opportunity, in this case..he saves the world (and his brother).
My other Favorite from the TV series "Deadwood" Long story short, the cattle Barron, who has been trying to Murder the sheriff and take over the town, has the sheriff in his sights, after killing the Gunman who locked the towns people in the church, severely stabbed the sheriff and doused both is kerosene. No witnesses, it will look JUST like the Sheriff was shot by the gunslinger. and the sheriff looks up, and says "do it" The Barron smiles, and helps the Sheriff to the Doctors, when the Sheriff is bandaged, he looks at the Barron and confused says "...WHY?"
The Barron smiles, pushes his hat back and says "I decided I'd rather have you in MY Debt, then in YOUR grave" *OOOOO Shiver up my spine
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