Is the heroine hardcore genre fading?

[GeekyPornCritic]

It looks like we may have lost Primal for good. Tropic City Heroines and World of Super Heroines rarely updates these days. Sexed Up Superheroines closed shop a few years ago. Alex Bettinger has not filmed a new heroine scene in over a year. Hardcore fans like myself are running low on options. We skill have Anastasia Pierce, Kendra James, and XXXtremeComiXX. Is the hardcore genre slowly fading away or will a new producer replace one of our fallen companies?

[athenaartemis]

It looks like we may have lost Primal for good. Tropic City Heroines and World of Super Heroines rarely updates these days. Sexed Up Superheroines closed shop a few years ago. Alex Bettinger has not filmed a new heroine scene in over a year. Hardcore fans like myself are running low on options. We skill have Anastasia Pierce, Kendra James, and XXXtremeComiXX. Is the hardcore genre slowly fading away or will a new producer replace one of our fallen companies?

I've looked at Cory's Super Heroine Adventures and its one of the worst stores in my opinion. I've never seen such poor production in the genre with almost every scene taking place in a living room. There are not any special effects. I bought a few videos from the store and I was not impressed.

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We also have two Dyna Girl videos at http://www.clips4sale.com/studio/67405/page2/

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If you like g/g superheroine - fight - beat down - domination - peril - sex videos, check out two Saturn Girl videos, three Sinn Sage as Wonder Girl videos and Green Lantern Girl video at http://www.clips4sale.com/studio/67405/

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[Mr. X]

I think the issue is having a business has become more expensive.

[KnightsofGotham.com]

The issue is that it costs a lot more money to produce hardcore scenes and they are the ones that are being shared the most among pirates. Its like the bulk of us have been saying for years.
"if you keep stealing from us we won't be able to make any new product"

the next step of course will be to start pirating the non-sexual stuff because thats all thats left until you kill them too.

ultimately the least producers standing will be the ones who shoot other things beside super heroine because they can let the other videos carry the weight of the loss.....
so the next time you share videos remember it is you who is the number one problem in this genre.

[Mr. X]

^^^This^^^

Though I do think the conversion rate for pirates is 0%. A pirate, when forced to buy, will not buy.

A funny story -

I had a customer write me complaining there was nothing new on my site and he wanted his money back. I update literally every week and have never missed an update. So I explain that. He writes back that he's upset he downloaded all my stuff on pirate sites and when he joined he didn't find anything new.

I "of course" apologized that my stuff was pirated and that he got all my stuff for free and that I was really really sorry he paid one time. He then complained its my fault that I "let" my stuff get pirated cause its so easy to prevent the theft of jpg files.

That made me a sad panda.

[HeroineTard]

The issue is that it costs a lot more money to produce hardcore scenes and they are the ones that are being shared the most among pirates. Its like the bulk of us have been saying for years.
"if you keep stealing from us we won't be able to make any new product"

the next step of course will be to start pirating the non-sexual stuff because thats all thats left until you kill them too.

ultimately the least producers standing will be the ones who shoot other things beside super heroine because they can let the other videos carry the weight of the loss.....
so the next time you share videos remember it is you who is the number one problem in this genre.

It's interesting that Giga seems to be consistently doing very well financially even though their videos literally get pirated the day of release and they never do anything about it.

A pirated copy does not equal a lost sale. There is no evidence to support this theory. Now if your video were on the front page of PornHub, I can imagine that may result in reduced sales for that video. However that might even cause increased sales in other videos due to the extra exposure. Until there are hard numbers to support this, it's all just conjecture.

I highly suspect the root cause of low sales lies elsewhere.

[Mr. X]

How do you know giga is doing well? Also how do you know they always get pirated? They have a proprietary viewer. It could be giga just sells so many videos they do well out of shear volume. I've noticed they have a horrible retention rate for models.

I also don't agree pirating is the big problem. I think if something is good people will pay and you cannot convert pirates. It is A problem but not the problem. I think economic down turn, too many players in the game and too much crap stuff is the problem. I can understand a customer being tempted to piracy due to not wanting to spend $30 on a crappy video that doesn't push the buttons and they don't know what they are getting. That's why free samples and significant free samples are necessary.

I also think hard core may not be a desirable venue for SHIP products.

[Heroine Addict]

Consumer paranoia may play a big part. Bear in mind that this genre's combination of peril + hardcore = RAPE.

Why does Axel Braun keep peril to a bare minimum when making hardcore superhero/ine porn for the masses? Because it means RAPE.

Which may be fine for a Japanese producer such as GIGA, but it's a huge taboo in the West. Try describing the content of hardcore SH Peril videos to someone who has no interest in this genre. No matter how hard you try to emphasize to them that it's fantasy, they will probably give you sideways looks for a long time.

While customers may not worry too much about buying the campy girl/girl stuff with a heroine turned horny by a potion or something, it's obvious that some people may not want to be linked to the purchase of a violent rape video. Which itself makes piracy an attractive option for that stuff, as downloaders can stay relatively anonymous.

I'm not trying to be judgmental about the content, just pointing out that there's a good chance a lot of people are worried about giving their personal details when buying the harder stuff.

[FallOutDweller]

Is not fading, is just a case of some big corporations secretly conspiring together in order to ruined this sector of the fetish industry with the main goal of preserving their own properties for themselves because they really hate laws regarding fair use and the financial exploitation of parodies and customized videos.

So of course "them" will try their best to make this genre the less profitable as possible.

[athenaartemis]

Consumer paranoia may play a big part. Bear in mind that this genre's combination of peril + hardcore = RAPE.

Why does Axel Braun keep peril to a bare minimum when making hardcore superhero/ine porn for the masses? Because it means RAPE.

Which may be fine for a Japanese producer such as GIGA, but it's a huge taboo in the West. Try describing the content of hardcore SH Peril videos to someone who has no interest in this genre. No matter how hard you try to emphasize to them that it's fantasy, they will probably give you sideways looks for a long time.

While customers may not worry too much about buying the campy girl/girl stuff with a heroine turned horny by a potion or something, it's obvious that some people may not want to be linked to the purchase of a violent rape video. Which itself makes piracy an attractive option for that stuff, as downloaders can stay relatively anonymous.

I'm not trying to be judgmental about the content, just pointing out that there's a good chance a lot of people are worried about giving their personal details when buying the harder stuff.

Stop trying to scare people. I have bought and sold from C4S for over 10 years. There has never been security once. NOT ONCE!

[KnightsofGotham.com]

It's interesting that Giga seems to be consistently doing very well financially

WOW....I didn't know you were on the board of GIGA! how are the board meetings like? do they just talk numbers or are their models in costumes strutting around?
unless you mean your opinion is that they are doing well which means its just conjecture

even though their videos literally get pirated the day of release

So do mine, so do many other producers here.

and they never do anything about it.

Im sure they are doing the same thing the rest of us are doing. sending take down notices to tube sites and to media hosting sites

A pirated copy does not equal a lost sale. There is no evidence to support this theory.

please share your data supporting this



Sorry if Im coming off as a dick, but your opinion is not hard fact. if you want hard fact I can give you hard facts. when my videos are on tube sites my overall sales go down! thats the established average that remains pretty much the same month in and month out with only slight variance. when my videos get on a tube site i start seeing sales drop.
I have hard numbers to prove this. I have broken them down. I have done the homework and Im sure Im not the only one doing so. So in the future if you're going to list something as fact post the numbers proving your point.
if not then its your opinion dressed up in the cheaply fabricated suit of fact

[KnightsofGotham.com]

Consumer paranoia may play a big part. Bear in mind that this genre's combination of peril + hardcore = RAPE.

Why does Axel Braun keep peril to a bare minimum when making hardcore superhero/ine porn for the masses? Because it means RAPE.

Which may be fine for a Japanese producer such as GIGA, but it's a huge taboo in the West. Try describing the content of hardcore SH Peril videos to someone who has no interest in this genre. No matter how hard you try to emphasize to them that it's fantasy, they will probably give you sideways looks for a long time.

While customers may not worry too much about buying the campy girl/girl stuff with a heroine turned horny by a potion or something, it's obvious that some people may not want to be linked to the purchase of a violent rape video. Which itself makes piracy an attractive option for that stuff, as downloaders can stay relatively anonymous.

I'm not trying to be judgmental about the content, just pointing out that there's a good chance a lot of people are worried about giving their personal details when buying the harder stuff.

Stop trying to scare people. I have bought and sold from C4S for over 10 years. There has never been security once. NOT ONCE!

Again I beg to differ. if you really sell on c4s then you know they have an internal system to combat piracy that i have used and have seen results from. sitting around on your hands is a great way of not fighting back, but you won't see results that way either....and I've been selling movies on the internet since the last 90's using my own merchant accounts and also third party services so I also know what I'm talking about

[Heroine Addict]

Stop trying to scare people. I have bought and sold from C4S for over 10 years. There has never been security once. NOT ONCE!

I'm not trying to scare anyone. Everyone already knows that large companies such as Sony and AshleyMadison get hacked.

Speaking of vendors, the need for VISA processing appears to be a major consideration for producers now. Even the hardcore producers now describe their products with careful language such as "one-sided situations" and "limp play with what comes before that". The strange euphemisms have become an art form in their own right.

So you have producers trying to sell videos with certain content without ever describing it in a straightforward way. The genre has become like an exclusive club with subtle nods and winks at what a video contains, understood by those who are in the know.

"This one has the cloth, if you know what I mean."

[Mr. X]

I agree Visa is a huge problem. Can't use the word "chloroform" anymore. I got shut down at one point due to Visa coming down in Britain due to a copy cat killer who choked a girl to death cause he saw it on a snuff site. For a while Visa has been a colossal ass to porn producers especially small time ones.

I mentioned earlier about the costs have gone up. In the old days you would just get a plug&pay account for billing then a bank merchant account with visa, pay the 2% credit card fee and off you go. But now banks scam you, rip you off etc so everyone is funneled into a small handful of processors that charge high rates. I think c4s charges like 33%? Ouch. So you can't make money.

Also other providers are hard to work with. Verotel won't allow any violence toward women, not even a woman in a sexy outfit holding a gun. But you could chain saw the hell out of all the men you like and they have no issue.

[athenaartemis]

Stop trying to scare people. I have bought and sold from C4S for over 10 years. There has never been security once. NOT ONCE!

I'm not trying to scare anyone. Everyone already knows that large companies such as Sony and AshleyMadison get hacked.

Speaking of vendors, the need for VISA processing appears to be a major consideration for producers now. Even the hardcore producers now describe their products with careful language such as "one-sided situations" and "limp play with what comes before that". The strange euphemisms have become an art form in their own right.

So you have producers trying to sell videos with taboo content without ever describing it in a straightforward way. The genre has become like an exclusive club with subtle nods and winks at what a video contains, understood by those who are in the know.

"This one has the cloth, if you know what I mean."

If you don't like the content, don't buy it, but stop giving everyone else a hard time.

If you really want to worry about something that matters, worry about an accountable corporation limiting and defining free speech in ways that government would never dare. Limiting freedom is government's call in the open day not VISA's decisions behind closed board room doors.

[MightyHypnotic]

I'm not sure that is IS dying, but if it is, my bet would be the fanbase is age-ing out. It's been a slow and steady decline since 2004 for a number of reasons but I think the main reason is that these videos are all based on TV shows that happened in the 60's and the 70's. Our fantasies are derived off of that and those fans are hitting their 40's and 50's. I speak to a lot of people who tell me they just aren't into it anymore, for whatever reason.

Im sure piracy is an issue as it is for all forms of media. But most importantly, superheroine fetish content is not super profitable. You can eek out a small revenue stream. Maybe pay your rent and some other bills with it. But it's not the windfall a lot of people thinks it is.

This genre is a labor of love.

If you want use clips4sale as a barometer, look at what's in the top 10. One SHIP producer who works very hard to be up there. One. The rest don't even crack the top 50.

So when "fans" come out and say things like, "I won't buy this clip because it has bad production values" or "It's not hardcore enough for me" You have the right to only pay for what you want but those things do not come cheap. And when you balk at a high price tag, then there simply isn't enough market to continually produce that type of material.

The TL;DR is, not enough demand.

[Heroine Addict]

If you don't like the content, don't buy it, but stop giving everyone else a hard time.

If you really want to worry about something that matters, worry about an accountable corporation limiting and defining free speech in ways that government would never dare. Limiting freedom is government's call in the open day not VISA's decisions behind closed board room doors.

I wouldn't be here if I didn't like the content. I'm merely acknowledging how that content is perceived outside this niche. The way producers try to avoid upsetting VISA - either by switching to milder content or using careful descriptions - affects the content coming from the industry. Much as you may like to say "Fuck you, VISA!", they hold all the cards. (Well, most of the cards. Not Mastercards, obviously.)

Piracy may harm sales, but it isn't the one and only problem that's making the harder content harder to find.

[HeroineTard]

It's interesting that Giga seems to be consistently doing very well financially

WOW....I didn't know you were on the board of GIGA! how are the board meetings like? do they just talk numbers or are their models in costumes strutting around?
unless you mean your opinion is that they are doing well which means its just conjecture

even though their videos literally get pirated the day of release

So do mine, so do many other producers here.

and they never do anything about it.

Im sure they are doing the same thing the rest of us are doing. sending take down notices to tube sites and to media hosting sites

A pirated copy does not equal a lost sale. There is no evidence to support this theory.

please share your data supporting this



Sorry if Im coming off as a dick, but your opinion is not hard fact. if you want hard fact I can give you hard facts. when my videos are on tube sites my overall sales go down! thats the established average that remains pretty much the same month in and month out with only slight variance. when my videos get on a tube site i start seeing sales drop.
I have hard numbers to prove this. I have broken them down. I have done the homework and Im sure Im not the only one doing so. So in the future if you're going to list something as fact post the numbers proving your point.
if not then its your opinion dressed up in the cheaply fabricated suit of fact

Yeah, you are coming off as a dick. But that's OK.

Giga has a section on their site where each of their directors posts on their on blog. Every year around January they talk about the state of the company and upcoming events/videos in production. On several occasions a couple different directors have posted about Giga being very successful financially during the last year and boast about which videos made their top sales list. You can even use Google translate if you can't read Japanese to get a rough idea of what they are saying.

Giga does have their proprietary viewer, but all you have to do is Google "Giga Superheroine" and the top results point to forums and torrent sites with all their latest videos for free download. One of them has literally been up and running for years.

In regards to their "model retention rate", Giga is not a US producer. Their industry doesn't work the US and it's a pretty self-centred attitude to think that the rest of the world must follow suit to how the US does things. Take a look at almost every other Japanese porn producer, they have a similar "model retention rate" as Giga. Japanese porn stars typically sign for a couple films and move on. Only on very rare occasions do you see one that sticks around for dozens of videos from the same producer. You'll even notice that when Giga hires Caucasian stars, they do so for 1-2 movies and that's it. The Japanese porn audience gets bored pretty quickly and seeing the same actress in the same costume over and over and it quickly loses it's appeal. That might be a different case here for North American fans.

You can go on and on about how you think piracy is affecting your sales, but even the movie, music and game industry will disagree with you. A pirated copy does not equal a lost sail. Period.

Do you really think a person without a credit card and $0 to their name who saw one of your videos on PornHub would have paid you $30 for a fetish video? Get real. It's too easy to just point the finger instead of taking a deep look inward to consider that it could be something else causing your sales to drop.

Maybe I've released too many videos too fast?
Maybe I've use the same actress too much and people are getting bored?
Maybe potential customers are being turned away by my production values?
Maybe I'm not quite hitting the fetish that certain buyers want?

It could be a number of things and hitting that sweet spot is what separates the successful ones from the rest. You can't expect to churn out the same content over and over. But of course, don't take my word for it.

[dajinx1]

Actually, The movie industry would disagree with you HeroineTard, If you see in front of some movies in the theaters, they place ads asking folks not to participate in pirating cause it hurts the industry and the people/crew that works on the movie.

Not to mention, that some movie companies are prosecuting those that they catch. If piracy isn't a threat, someone forgot to tell these guys.

http://www.theguardian.com/film/2014/ju ... rfeit-dvds

http://money.cnn.com/2011/06/10/technol ... _lawsuits/

https://recombu.com/digital/article/int ... 11099.html

[KnightsofGotham.com]

This is looking like it may get out of hand so I'm gonna exit stage left and allow you guys to continue without me.
I will leave by saying the following:
saying piracy is not affecting producers is dangerous because the only way to know for sure you're wrong is when its already too late. at which point you say
"wow...all the hardcore producers have stopped producing hardcore and the software producers are dwindling away....guess those guys were right....too bad its too late to do something about it....oh well...time to watch my 9 year old copy of this awesome video game.....wish someone would come around and make more like this....wonder why no-one does anymore"

[DrObiCaffi]

I honestly do not understand how porn is making money AT ALL anymore with sites like youjizz, pornhub, youporn, and xtube around. When I dont have the money or a vid video to spend money on, I hit those sites up for free.

[Mr. X]

If you want use clips4sale as a barometer, look at what's in the top 10. One SHIP producer who works very hard to be up there. One. The rest don't even crack the top 50.

I just counted 3 on the top 50 studios.

Yeah I think the SHIP thing is not a huge seller. You're right about that. Probably why Primal is dumping it. Straight up porn is just easier to produce. Put two people in a room and film them doing it. No plot. No costumes. No sets.

I'm also surprised as well that porn hasn't flat lined altogether. There must be decades of the stuff. Pretty much the same thing over and over yet there's more demand.

I don't agree SHIP will die. Comic books have had a huge resurgence. Hero movies are a huge thing now. It could be it dwindles like westerns but I don't think it'll die out. I'm sure there are some damaged kids today getting hot and bothered over Supergirl or other shows.

[MightyHypnotic]

I didn't see Cory at the bottom there, but she might've just cracked the top 50 in the last hour. And I am guessing Ludella is the other but she is multi-fetish and not strictly superheroine. My point being, there are a LOT of superheroine producers, you would think we would be all over the Top 50 (And I am referring to the studio list, not releases.)

Anyway, no I dont think it will disappear either, it's going to be just like it is now. We're all going to be making our movies unless a time comes that we can't do it anymore, then we move on.

[robyn]

I would think Piracy is unhelpful. I agree that most who download for free would never buy the video, but some might have and decided it was only worth one look. A producer should maybe ask themselves if they are making a video that a buyer looks at more than once. Tube sites will be a bigger issue than downloads as well because people can just watch it straight away. If your video is uploaded on a tube site the day after it is released I think that will hurt sales.

Having said all that that biggest harm to sales must be over-supply of product. MH talked about 2004 being a peak year, how many producers of this stuff were there in 2004 compared with today? Anybody can pick up a cheap camera that they can get an adequate picture quality from these days. All kinds of people are having a go at this and no doubt discovering that it isn't a way to make a fortune. BUT if they release 10 videos before they quit and there are several of these guys then that is a lot of product flooding a market which is not very big I think all would agree. If people want higher quality videos then it requires about 3 producers to dominate the market, not 50. I don't think we will ever get back to that.

[HeroineTard]

Actually, The movie industry would disagree with you HeroineTard, If you see in front of some movies in the theaters, they place ads asking folks not to participate in pirating cause it hurts the industry and the people/crew that works on the movie.

Not to mention, that some movie companies are prosecuting those that they catch. If piracy isn't a threat, someone forgot to tell these guys.

http://www.theguardian.com/film/2014/ju ... rfeit-dvds

http://money.cnn.com/2011/06/10/technol ... _lawsuits/

https://recombu.com/digital/article/int ... 11099.html

And yet the movie industry reports record breaking numbers year after year.
Oh, and I can link random articles too.
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/sideshow/ne ... 06729.html

I can also make an ad saying that piracy hurts brain cells and causes arthritis, but that won't make it true.

I'm not completely dismissing the fact that piracy does have an effect on various industries. I just don't believe it's the white whale people are claiming it to be.

As for the gaming industry, a new type of anti-piracy/tamper software (Denuvo) has been gaining momentum which has caused the top pirate groups to give up because the encryption is just too hard to crack. This has led a lot of people to believe that we'll soon see hard numbers to whether or not this specific industry is at all affected by piracy.

[Imagineer]

There's a kind of piracy that affects the porn/fetish market more than other markets. Some people have the money but don't want to leave a paper trail. Piracy remains easier than legitimately purchasing videos without leaving a trail that's easy for a spouse or partner to find.

[Mr. X]

I didn't see Cory at the bottom there, but she might've just cracked the top 50 in the last hour. And I am guessing Ludella is the other but she is multi-fetish and not strictly superheroine. My point being, there are a LOT of superheroine producers, you would think we would be all over the Top 50 (And I am referring to the studio list, not releases.)

Anyway, no I dont think it will disappear either, it's going to be just like it is now. We're all going to be making our movies unless a time comes that we can't do it anymore, then we move on.

I'm still wondering why most of these other studios ARE on the top 50.

[Heroine Addict]

How is the clips4sale top 50 calculated? Total number of sales of all releases by a particular producer or average sales per release? If a hugely prolific studio such as Heroine Legends had a clips4sale page, for example, would the sheer number of releases push them up the chart?

[Mr. X]

How is the clips4sale top 50 calculated? Total number of sales of all releases by a particular producer or average sales per release? If a hugely prolific studio such as Heroine Legends had a clips4sale page, for example, would the sheer number of releases push them up the chart?

I think its determined by a battle in a ring in which Quatloos are wagered.

[xxxwarriorxxx]

Tara Tainton would make waaaay more money if she did a KO Wonder Woman movie-- I have asked several times, and get no response. I bet if some of these other people like her tried it, their sales would go up.

[AnastasiaPierce]

So regarding shooting hardcore. Here is something you might want to know.
That might very seriously change the landscape of shoots.

There is a meeting happening right now between adult performers and OSHA regarding passing a new Condom Law. Making condoms, goggles, and dental dams mandatory in California. Well it doesn't stop to boy/girl shoots.

For me, if this passes I won't be able to lick a pussy on film ever again!

Women will be needing to use dental dam between genitals or between the lips and the pussy. And I AM NOT licking a piece of plastic to get a girl off!! NO WAY. If a company doesn't comply. They will be charged crazy expensive fines (something like 25000 per scene)

I will still be able to shoot strap-on scenes, but no more girl licking. I hope you understand this is a serious law that might take effect soon if it passes. And I doubt it will stay in california. It will become a federal law in no time.

My intention is to keep shooting pussy licking for now as I can, enjoy the scenes while you can!
Just thought you might want to know what's going on.

If these new regulation pass, they will also change the way performers are getting tested, what should happen on set and how medical information will be stored. I won't bore you with all of that.

Thank you so much for enjoying the HARDCORE GENRE!!!

Hugs and Kisses
Anastasia

[Heroine Addict]

Wow! That seems extreme. What are your options for shooting outside California if it goes through? It sounds like a studio in a more lenient state could clean up leasing studio space to California-based artists.

[Dogfish]

So regarding shooting hardcore. Here is something you might want to know.
That might very seriously change the landscape of shoots.

There is a meeting happening right now between adult performers and OSHA regarding passing a new Condom Law. Making condoms, goggles, and dental dams mandatory in California. Well it doesn't stop to boy/girl shoots.

For me, if this passes I won't be able to lick a pussy on film ever again!

Women will be needing to use dental dam between genitals or between the lips and the pussy. And I AM NOT licking a piece of plastic to get a girl off!! NO WAY. If a company doesn't comply. They will be charged crazy expensive fines (something like 25000 per scene)

I will still be able to shoot strap-on scenes, but no more girl licking. I hope you understand this is a serious law that might take effect soon if it passes. And I doubt it will stay in california. It will become a federal law in no time.

My intention is to keep shooting pussy licking for now as I can, enjoy the scenes while you can!
Just thought you might want to know what's going on.

If these new regulation pass, they will also change the way performers are getting tested, what should happen on set and how medical information will be stored. I won't bore you with all of that.

Thank you so much for enjoying the HARDCORE GENRE!!!

Hugs and Kisses
Anastasia

There have been similar moves afoot in the UK over various things (for example the last thing they slapped a ban on was facesitting in porn) and the government is planning to regulate foreign porn websites in the future too. Which means we'll be getting a firewall like China has on our internet (because the only way to regulate access to foreign sites is to have a barrier in the way).

Whichever way you slice it porn is going to be harder to make, harder to buy (because of how so many credit card companies are operating) and harder to view. Because let's face it, nobody's going to win an election by saying they like porn. :(

[AnastasiaPierce]

California officials just voted NO. This is a BIG victory for the porn industry.
And me I can keep on shooting girl/girl hardcore - good!

This had been going on for so long 2 years I believe, it was getting scary. I had no idea they were going to vote today.
I should go celebrate, right now

[Heroine Addict]

You can make balloons from the unneeded condoms.

[Mr. X]

California officials just voted NO. This is a BIG victory for the porn industry.
And me I can keep on shooting girl/girl hardcore - good!

This had been going on for so long 2 years I believe, it was getting scary. I had no idea they were going to vote today.
I should go celebrate, right now

I really get to wonder who the real prudes are now a days. Its not like California is Texas or Alabama. Seems like if there isn't a busy body trying to ban porn cause its immoral there's some busy body trying to ban it cause it exploits women. Red poo or Blue poo its still poo.

[MightyHypnotic]

California officials just voted NO. This is a BIG victory for the porn industry.
And me I can keep on shooting girl/girl hardcore - good!

This had been going on for so long 2 years I believe, it was getting scary. I had no idea they were going to vote today.
I should go celebrate, right now

I really get to wonder who the real prudes are now a days. Its not like California is Texas or Alabama. Seems like if there isn't a busy body trying to ban porn cause its immoral there's some busy body trying to ban it cause it exploits women. Red poo or Blue poo its still poo.

It's one guy. Michael Weinstein and the AHF. But he has a lot of grease. Thankfully today he came up a bit short but that doesn't mean he won't try again.

The thing is that, when these proposals are put to the public vote, they are worded in such a way to make the public think this is actually helping the industry, so most people vote yes.

[Mr. X]

If they want to help the industry they should go after the banks that let us set up a Visa merchant account, let us build up escrow then seize the escrow and tell us we violated the terms cause we did a porn site even though we flat out said we were doing porn and they agreed to it.

[Dogfish]

California officials just voted NO. This is a BIG victory for the porn industry.
And me I can keep on shooting girl/girl hardcore - good!

This had been going on for so long 2 years I believe, it was getting scary. I had no idea they were going to vote today.
I should go celebrate, right now

I really get to wonder who the real prudes are now a days. Its not like California is Texas or Alabama. Seems like if there isn't a busy body trying to ban porn cause its immoral there's some busy body trying to ban it cause it exploits women. Red poo or Blue poo its still poo.

It's one guy. Michael Weinstein and the AHF. But he has a lot of grease. Thankfully today he came up a bit short but that doesn't mean he won't try again.

The thing is that, when these proposals are put to the public vote, they are worded in such a way to make the public think this is actually helping the industry, so most people vote yes.

The groups of people who target porn are an odd lot. For example in the UK some of the driving forces behind the bills to curtail what can be produced and to push for the regulation of foreign websites are the mainstream big porn producers. The people who own things like the porn cable TV channels and whatnot have a lot of money and have been pushing for regulation to target the various tube sites that pirate a lot of their content. They've also been trying to shut down small producers because they don't like the competition and small producers, the sort who used to be targeted by regulators, tend not to the have the time or resources to make a big fight of it.

It is tricky though. On the idealogical spectrum you've got 2nd wave feminists on one side who are anti-porn because reasons, and on the other side you've got religious types who think it's bad because other reasons. The good news is that if folks can hang in there both these groups seem to be losing traction, 2nd wave feminism is being eased out of the way by 3rd wave which is much more sex positive and accepting of whatever people want to do with their bodies, and the religious right in a lot of countries is just on the wane in general. Both sets of killjoys will still be around for a while but their popular support is drying up. Bottom line is that the generations who are coming up and running the show are the generation who grew up with the Internet, so they've seen everything done to everybody. The tolerance for smut is way more highly developed.

[Mr. X]

I would ask if hardcore is actually necessary for our fan base. I know some people who do want hard core but others that do not.

[Heroine Addict]

I would ask if hardcore is actually necessary for our fan base. I know some people who do want hard core but others that do not.

I guess that question can only be answered by sales figures.

I know I go on about this a lot, but the obvious "dry humping" in some videos seems like a weird hybrid to me; we get the hardcore themes and the style and tone of a hardcore video, but the sex (supposedly penetrative sex within the story) is clearly one fully-clothed crotch grinding against another fully-clothed crotch.

It seems particularly weird because the videos are generally technically proficient, so the obvious non-sexual sex scenes can only be deliberate. There are various ways that costume tearing and penetration could be implied without doing the full gynecological spread lips shot, but it's as if the producers are trying to show that the performers really, really aren't having sex on-set.

Now, a lot of these performers are unwilling to do hardcore porn. Or, in the case of an established porn star like Gigi Allens, it could be a matter of her hardcore fee being more than the budget allows. But I've always wondered whether the "dry humping" thing is driven by the market? Are there guys out there who actually prefer to stay in their "comfort zone", watching a fully-clothed crotch grinding against another fully-clothed crotch?

[swampy170]

Perhaps being quite obvious there is no sexual activity actually occurring is the entire point?

After all - hard to define a shoot as softcore if you can't tell if the sex is real or not. My guess - that could well be a stipulation, in fact would make it more likely to be able to shoot with certain models (since it's obvious no hardcore has happened).

There's a huge gap between models who'd be willing to shoot dry humping and models who're willing to shoot hardcore, and a sizeable difference in pay also! - as mentioned above.

[Mr. X]

Actually I would avoid the dry humping as well. Just stick to bondage, some nudity, fondling, maybe girl on girl. I'm more interested in the fetish elements. I've never understood the appeal of dry hump. If you do that you might as well do full sex but then you have to have girls who are willing and guys who look OK on camera with big enough "equipment". That's when the cost goes through the roof.

So it could be hardcore is too expensive and not a lot of people in this genre are interested. Only sales figures would tell.

[Heroine Addict]

Perhaps being quite obvious there is no sexual activity actually occurring is the entire point?

After all - hard to define a shoot as softcore if you can't tell if the sex is real or not. My guess - that could well be a stipulation, in fact would make it more likely to be able to shoot with certain models (since it's obvious no hardcore has happened).

There's a huge gap between models who'd be willing to shoot dry humping and models who're willing to shoot hardcore, and a sizeable difference in pay also! - as mentioned above.

Well, most softcore porn does aim for some degree of authenticity. Even though the performers aren't actually having sex, it's generally shot in such a way so you can't see the actress's unmoved and unripped clothing is completely covering her unpenetrated pussy at the exact moment her pussy is supposedly getting filled with cock.

It just seems weird that any producer/director would deliberately keep a leotard and tights-covered pussy in-shot throughout a sex scene. Can you think of any non-comedic examples from either mainstream movies or any form of porn where the producer/director has knowingly framed a sex scene to make it obvious no sex is happening? It seems to be a quirk of this particular SH Peril genre.

I agree it may well be down to actresses wanting to make it clear they're not getting fucked on-set. However, a prominent "ALL SEX IN THIS VIDEO IS SIMULATED" disclaimer on the opening titles would not take me out of the moment as much as an awkward dry hump which resembles drunken colleagues trying to dance the Conga erotically at the office Christmas party.

Also, the accuracy of descriptions can make a huge difference as to whether the customer thinks they're getting softcore or hardcore. I won't name and shame the specific person, but there's a producer who regularly advertises here who always specifies "nudity" for videos that only contain toplessness. So someone can look at that producer's description and preview pics and see that the heroine gets fucked and there will be "nudity". Then they watch the video and it's... DRY HUMPING!

Actually I would avoid the dry humping as well. Just stick to bondage, some nudity, fondling, maybe girl on girl. I'm more interested in the fetish elements. I've never understood the appeal of dry hump. If you do that you might as well do full sex but then you have to have girls who are willing and guys who look OK on camera with big enough "equipment". That's when the cost goes through the roof.

So it could be hardcore is too expensive and not a lot of people in this genre are interested. Only sales figures would tell.

Exactly. There's no shortage of alternatives to dry humping. Even if the actress is strictly non-nude, there's so much that could be done to bring her character to climax in her costume.

Or even out of her costume in some sort of device that protects her modesty. Barbarella cumming in the Excessive Machine is one of the most iconic sex scenes in cinema. Yet we literally just see her head and shoulders with parts of her costume spat out onto the floor.

[Aszrael]

Where did Primal go? They just leased a video.

[ywf]

Where did Primal go? They just leased a video.

viewtopic.php?f=37&t=26552

[Imagineer]

The way I look at it: when in doubt, the answer to "why X instead of equally-producible Y" is "because there's money in X." And probably "because the promise of more money in Y is not convincing or compelling or is even shown not to be there from past experience."

As for acceptable alternatives to dry-humping, that depends on what your key fetish deliverable is. Suspension of disbelief doesn't bridge all chasms equally well.

If your key deliverable is that a vanquished female is sexually stimulated, you probably can't get there from dry-humping, but you may be able to get there from a Hitachi or an Orgasmatron/Excessive Machine/sex-ray. You may also be able to get there with an attempt by the producer to disguise the fact that genitalia are fully covered with a ripping sound and a less-obvious camera angle -- require a smaller leap to "she's being fucked."

If, however, one's key deliverable is that a victorious male fucks a vanquished female, one probably can't get there from a Hitachi or Orgasmatron/Excesive Machine/sex-ray no matter how creative, but one may be able to get there from dry humping.

One might even prefer dry-humping with better production values / costumes / acting / body type to hardcore videos lacking in other aspects, or prefer dry-humping to nothing because one bought all the available hardcore stuff that appealed to one already. One's not necessarily asking for dry-humping, just accepting it as part of a more satisfying overall package that meets key deliverables.

[TIEnTEEZ]

As far as I am aware, Primal didn't stop because of a lack of interest or because they weren't making money. They stopped because their main content-producer got a better job.

[shevek]

This is going to be a huge blow for the scene.

[Imagineer]

Non-consensual scenarios are pretty commonly named as fantasies by many women, so feminist calls to label them categorically obscene or otherwise try to ban them will meet with some strong dissent. Protections for performers seem more likely, but probably more about establishing clear consent, and advocates from within the mainstream porn industry will probably come up with a program, as they did for STDs.

I worry more about moral conservatism seeing an opportunity in feminist controversies and working on their own to destroy porn under the guise of protecting women.