Red Sonja

[Mr. X]

Great We now know how this is going to turn out.

Notice how its a character males create that they bastardize but they never make an empowering movie about a historical female like Joan of Arc or that woman who was a pirate. Or just make some empowered female. Why does it have to be the revamping of some other thing.

[Dazzle1]

Great We now know how this is going to turn out.

Notice how its a character males create that they bastardize but they never make an empowering movie about a historical female like Joan of Arc or that woman who was a pirate. Or just make some empowered female. Why does it have to be the revamping of some other thing.

That is why Wonder Woman will always be the greatest Superheroine, she is an original

Regarding Joan or Arc, that would be hard because she died so young.

Although not an action film -Elizabeth was a female empowerment film
Boudica would be a good one

[ivandobsky]

Is this another tax write off?

[shevek]

Boudica would be a good one

There have already been several Boudicca films and comics.
The latest one, done by Saban, came out last year. It was OK. I did a thread about it:
viewtopic.php?p=210724&hilit=boudica#p210724

There was also Tomiris, filmed in Kazakhstan about the real-life Amazon, which came out in 2019. It was also OK.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomiris_(film)

There are a bunch of other empowering woman-warrior movies, too.
There was a entire genre of 'female barbarian' B-movie flicks in the 80s, of which the Red Sonja film was only the tip of the iceberg.
And in the 90s, there was of course the Xena phenomenon.
There was Mulan live-action in 2020 which was a complete bomb.

I wonder if Matilda Lutz would say all of those productions were about the male gaze. Probably she would.
Cue up all the Youtubers raring to destroy Matilda over the next couple weeks, as the Madame Web furor has died down.
This has become all too predictable, that the way to promote a movie is by dissing the fans of the original IP.

[P.S. I've always wanted to see a film or comic about the Berber warrior queen Kahina/Dihya, who resisted the Muslim hordes for quite a while and established her own kingdom. I first learned about her from an episode of Relic Hunter called 'Kahina's Saddle'!]

---------------------------------------------------------

Also, Jesus fucking shit:
"“I have no interest in fictional women who use [rape] as an engine of motivation,” the director told The Hollywood Reporter‘s Scott Johnson in January 2023. “It’s not a strong motivation. She’s just a human being in the world of femininity.”

This has got to be one of the most idiotic things I've ever heard anyone from the film industry say, even for a movie director who is trans.
Want to know why?
Because in 2017's 'Revenge', Matilda Lutz played A WOMAN WHOSE ENTIRE MOTIVATION WAS THAT SHE WAS RAPED AND LEFT FOR DEAD.
That's why the movie is called 'Revenge'! (I watched it when Matilda's role as Red Sonja was announced, to check out her acting skills).
And not only that, in 2021's 'Zone 414', Matilda's android character SHOOTS A MAN WHO TRIES TO IMMOBILIZE HER TO RAPE HER.
You can't make this level of stupidity up. Matilda's entire career is based on rape revenge roles.
Does MJ Bassett even realize what is coming out of her mouth?

[Mr. X]

What I find funny is actresses like this and Scarlet Johanson etc complain about the male gaze yet routinely star in horror movies in which they wearing under wear etc and stalked by some killer. Johanson did topless scenes in chic flics.

Do these actresses/studios really think this brings people in to demonize men of certain fan bases?

[argento]

Cosplayer Irina Meier has an orientation that appeals to a male audience.

[sneakly]

Great We now know how this is going to turn out.

Notice how its a character males create that they bastardize but they never make an empowering movie about a historical female like Joan of Arc or that woman who was a pirate. Or just make some empowered female. Why does it have to be the revamping of some other thing.

I am utterly SHOCKED! A movie based on a female character in a leather and metal bikini and created by male writers in the 1970s would be consider exploitative! shocked!

In the TV show Hunter in the 1980s had a revolt by the female lead ( the delicious Stephanie Kramer). She objected to her character being tied up and raped for a third time in the series run. That was the way it was back then. If they want to update the character to make her fit modern norms, I get it. But the origins of the character was tits and ass version of Conan. Rape shouldn't be the key motivator in all female action flicks. In the 1970s and 80s it was an overused trope. I can think of a dozen movies where raped girl gets revenge while half naked. They are welcome to change it.

BUT, they still have to create a compelling story and if they decide she can't wear a metal bikini, they may not want to switch her into a Burka either. They wanted to get rid of Wonder Woman's costume in the 1970s and Gloria Steinem (of all people) objected. Change and update the story at your own peril...

[Dazzle1]

Boudica would be a good one

There have already been several Boudicca films and comics.
The latest one, done by Saban, came out last year. It was OK. I did a thread about it:
viewtopic.php?p=210724&hilit=boudica#p210724

There was also Tomiris, filmed in Kazakhstan about the real-life Amazon, which came out in 2019. It was also OK.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomiris_(film)

There are a bunch of other empowering woman-warrior movies, too.
There was a entire genre of 'female barbarian' B-movie flicks in the 80s, of which the Red Sonja film was only the tip of the iceberg.
And in the 90s, there was of course the Xena phenomenon.
There was Mulan live-action in 2020 which was a complete bomb.

I wonder if Matilda Lutz would say all of those productions were about the male gaze. Probably she would.
Cue up all the Youtubers raring to destroy Matilda over the next couple weeks, as the Madame Web furor has died down.
This has become all too predictable, that the way to promote a movie is by dissing the fans of the original IP.

[P.S. I've always wanted to see a film or comic about the Berber warrior queen Kahina/Dihya, who resisted the Muslim hordes for quite a while and established her own kingdom. I first learned about her from an episode of Relic Hunter called 'Kahina's Saddle'!]

---------------------------------------------------------

Also, Jesus fucking shit:
"“I have no interest in fictional women who use [rape] as an engine of motivation,” the director told The Hollywood Reporter‘s Scott Johnson in January 2023. “It’s not a strong motivation. She’s just a human being in the world of femininity.”

This has got to be one of the most idiotic things I've ever heard anyone from the film industry say, even for a movie director who is trans.
Want to know why?
Because in 2017's 'Revenge', Matilda Lutz played A WOMAN WHOSE ENTIRE MOTIVATION WAS THAT SHE WAS RAPED AND LEFT FOR DEAD.
That's why the movie is called 'Revenge'! (I watched it when Matilda's role as Red Sonja was announced, to check out her acting skills).
And not only that, in 2021's 'Zone 414', Matilda's android character SHOOTS A MAN WHO TRIES TO IMMOBILIZE HER TO RAPE HER.
You can't make this level of stupidity up. Matilda's entire career is based on rape revenge roles.
Does MJ Bassett even realize what is coming out of her mouth?

-----------
I was responding to a historical figure vs a fictional figure

[DonShip]

Sounds like this upcoming version of her will be covered head to toe, and not the least bit sexy. So a woman mimicking a man. Yeah. No. Looks like they won't be getting my money.

Okay, just did a search. I could be wrong.

[Dogfish]

I wasn't expecting much but I'll give it a go. Can't be worse than the 2011 Conan movie.

[shevek]

I wasn't expecting much but I'll give it a go. Can't be worse than the 2011 Conan movie.

Oh, it could very easily be worse. Terrible as it was, 2011 Conan was pre-woke, and the movie featured Jason Momoa, Rose McGowan, Ron Perlman, and Rachel Nichols (the live-action Scarlett!) so at least there were nice things to look at and some kind of acting to enjoy.

This Red Sonja film is made by the exact same company, Avi Lerner's Millennium (a longtime offshoot of Cannon) that did the 2011 Conan.
If the same company makes two highly similar movies, one of them is going to be worse than the other, at least slightly.

So it could most definitely tip into the 'even worse' category, where you end up with the same dilemma as Marvels/Madame Web, scratching your head and going 'Which is worse? Hard to say?'

But I wouldn't entirely give up on it yet just because of Matilda Lutz's posturing. It's still Red Sonja. So we'll wait and see.

[Mr. X]

Oh yeah, forgot about that Jason Mamoa Conan. I thought Dogfish was referring to that Arnie one with Grace what's her name.

[sneakly]

I completely missed that one. Boy did they ruin Rose McGawan, She was such a hotty in her Charmed days.

[shevek]

I completely missed that one. Boy did they ruin Rose McGawan, She was such a hotty in her Charmed days.

She ruined herself. Dated Marilyn Manson, shaved her head, went MeToo, got arrested for coke, moved to Mexico so she could continue doing drugs, etc. She could have remained a huge star for a lot longer than she did, but presented herself as too unstable.

In some ways, she is a bit (reality)based and stands out from the pack because she is staunchly feminist and criticizes gays for not being pro-woman enough (the current trans movement is very anti-female) but she has many of the crazy-eyed elements that Alyssa Milano does, so it's kind of just evens.

I kind of like her chutzpah, though, for going up against the Sultan of Brunei. At least she was able to acknowledge and criticize the medieval-era nature of some of that "Sheik of Araby" stuff that today's intersectionalists are too scared to criticize (see Israel/Hamas conflict).

[Femina]

I mean we've already seen the costume on the poster so, I expect she just means no ludicrously obvious T&A shots are being filmed on purpose.

Frankly it's basically about aligned with the Red Sonya comics these days. For the most part they maintain her classic look, and just rather than OVERLY focusing on the T&A they just have her doing badass barbarian stuff and let the sex appeal come naturally. There's pros and cons to this obviously but, I expect it's even more important in a film. To many obvious booty shots and it draws the viewer out of the experience no matter HOW invested they are in a booty shot or two.

By example, not many people thought the Flash falling into Wonder Woman's boobs was excellent film making, that and we're already seeing 'sex scene' fatigue in the premium television shows with most viewers asking for shows that can just get the fuck on with the plot already and stop wasting our time with ten minute sex scenes.

[Dazzle1]

I mean we've already seen the costume on the poster so, I expect she just means no ludicrously obvious T&A shots are being filmed on purpose.

Frankly it's basically about aligned with the Red Sonya comics these days. For the most part they maintain her classic look, and just rather than OVERLY focusing on the T&A they just have her doing badass barbarian stuff and let the sex appeal come naturally. There's pros and cons to this obviously but, I expect it's even more important in a film. To many obvious booty shots and it draws the viewer out of the experience no matter HOW invested they are in a booty shot or two.

By example, not many people thought the Flash falling into Wonder Woman's boobs was excellent film making, that and we're already seeing 'sex scene' fatigue in the premium television shows with most viewers asking for shows that can just get the fuck on with the plot already and stop wasting our time with ten minute sex scenes.

When you say the Classic look, I image Red Sonja with almost nothing on

https://www.dynamite.com/images/TNClassicRS01CovA.jpg

[Dazzle1]

I completely missed that one. Boy did they ruin Rose McGawan, She was such a hotty in her Charmed days.

She ruined herself. Dated Marilyn Manson, shaved her head, went MeToo, got arrested for coke, moved to Mexico so she could continue doing drugs, etc. She could have remained a huge star for a lot longer than she did, but presented herself as too unstable.

In some ways, she is a bit (reality)based and stands out from the pack because she is staunchly feminist and criticizes gays for not being pro-woman enough (the current trans movement is very anti-female) but she has many of the crazy-eyed elements that Alyssa Milano does, so it's kind of just evens.

I kind of like her chutzpah, though, for going up against the Sultan of Brunei. At least she was able to acknowledge and criticize the medieval-era nature of some of that "Sheik of Araby" stuff that today's intersectionalists are too scared to criticize (see Israel/Hamas conflict).

Coombs and Milano have become so unlikeable.

[Femina]

I mean we've already seen the costume on the poster so, I expect she just means no ludicrously obvious T&A shots are being filmed on purpose.

Frankly it's basically about aligned with the Red Sonya comics these days. For the most part they maintain her classic look, and just rather than OVERLY focusing on the T&A they just have her doing badass barbarian stuff and let the sex appeal come naturally. There's pros and cons to this obviously but, I expect it's even more important in a film. To many obvious booty shots and it draws the viewer out of the experience no matter HOW invested they are in a booty shot or two.

By example, not many people thought the Flash falling into Wonder Woman's boobs was excellent film making, that and we're already seeing 'sex scene' fatigue in the premium television shows with most viewers asking for shows that can just get the fuck on with the plot already and stop wasting our time with ten minute sex scenes.

When you say the Classic look, I image Red Sonja with almost nothing on

https://www.dynamite.com/images/TNClassicRS01CovA.jpg

Yeah that's still basically what she wears in the comics these days, some have her covering up a bit more when she's specifically like... up in the snowcapped mountains and stuff, but otherwise it's still relatively the same classic Red Sonya with the occasional doodads cycling on and off.

The difference is in the FRAMING of her as dangerous, powerful, and not to be taken lightly... without dumbing down her sex appeal. So when you see the T&A it's on Sonya's terms more or less, vs the old days when she'd be just walking around casually while the camera was up in her boobs and bottom where it's obviously just there to BE there.

Again I see pros and cons for this, but in a MOVIE, comic book framing is especially obviously notable for most people, as if you want a cake shot, you have to VERY DELIBERATELY film a cake shot and HOLD the shot long enough that it's obvious this cake shot is what's important to you as you're filming atm, and its more distracting to the viewer than a single panel of cake in-between the action of a comic book is. So all i really mean to say in regard to the recent hooplah above is that, I figure this is what she means by 'toning down the male gaze' a bit. It's not that they're removing her classic look or forgetting that a massive element of Red Sonja is her fairly iconic 'barbarian' sex appeal....... it's just being shot to frame her as powerful and dangerous FIRST, and a sex object at her own leisure. Obviously, we won't know FOR SURE, what they're doing till we start to see some actual footage from this thing... IF there's ever footage.

[Dogfish]

Oh yeah, forgot about that Jason Mamoa Conan. I thought Dogfish was referring to that Arnie one with Grace what's her name.

No the Momoa Conan was way worse than Conan The Destroyer.

[Dogfish]

I wasn't expecting much but I'll give it a go. Can't be worse than the 2011 Conan movie.

Oh, it could very easily be worse. Terrible as it was, 2011 Conan was pre-woke, and the movie featured Jason Momoa, Rose McGowan, Ron Perlman, and Rachel Nichols (the live-action Scarlett!) so at least there were nice things to look at and some kind of acting to enjoy.

This Red Sonja film is made by the exact same company, Avi Lerner's Millennium (a longtime offshoot of Cannon) that did the 2011 Conan.
If the same company makes two highly similar movies, one of them is going to be worse than the other, at least slightly.

So it could most definitely tip into the 'even worse' category, where you end up with the same dilemma as Marvels/Madame Web, scratching your head and going 'Which is worse? Hard to say?'

But I wouldn't entirely give up on it yet just because of Matilda Lutz's posturing. It's still Red Sonja. So we'll wait and see.

There is no such thing as 'pre-woke'. Before woke it was 'PC' before 'PC' it was 'women's lib' or some such, and back it goes forever. Red Sonja was inherently that, because a woman kills the shit out of men with a sword.

[shevek]

I wasn't expecting much but I'll give it a go. Can't be worse than the 2011 Conan movie.

Oh, it could very easily be worse. Terrible as it was, 2011 Conan was pre-woke, and the movie featured Jason Momoa, Rose McGowan, Ron Perlman, and Rachel Nichols (the live-action Scarlett!) so at least there were nice things to look at and some kind of acting to enjoy.

This Red Sonja film is made by the exact same company, Avi Lerner's Millennium (a longtime offshoot of Cannon) that did the 2011 Conan.
If the same company makes two highly similar movies, one of them is going to be worse than the other, at least slightly.

So it could most definitely tip into the 'even worse' category, where you end up with the same dilemma as Marvels/Madame Web, scratching your head and going 'Which is worse? Hard to say?'

But I wouldn't entirely give up on it yet just because of Matilda Lutz's posturing. It's still Red Sonja. So we'll wait and see.

There is no such thing as 'pre-woke'. Before woke it was 'PC' before 'PC' it was 'women's lib' or some such, and back it goes forever. Red Sonja was inherently that, because a woman kills the shit out of men with a sword.

,

I think you don't realize what you just typed yourself. Look at it again. 'Before' means the same thing as 'pre' the last I checked.

But, you know what? I was going to write a whole essay about this, but instead I'm turning over a new leaf.
I have to just resign myself to the fact that you don' t know history and you don't understand terminology, and leave it at that.

And now, back to Red Sonja.

[PartsUnknown]

I’d love it if one of our esteemed SHIP producers took a stab at a peril version of Red Sonja. There are some fantastic cosplayers who could provide inspiration.

As far as the upcoming film goes, my expectations are below sea level. On a practical side, the fact that it’s been pushed back so many times and they still haven’t released a teaser trailer for it tells me they don’t feel great what they’ve made. And Matilda Lutz’s statement about the male gaze doesn’t make me hopeful about it.

It can be both — sexiness is a critical part of Red Sonja and she can still be empowering. Lutz’s breakout role was in “Revenge,” a fun action/horror/exploitation film where her character was gang raped, left for dead but ended up coming back to life to exact bloody revenge — while mostly wearing a bikini with various weapons strung to her. It fucks, and that’s what Red Sonja does, she fucks.

The chainmail bikini is a major part of what makes Sonja a memorable character, and it doesn’t need to be explained away. The sword & sorcery genre is inspired by Boris Vallejo’s artwork that celebrated the human body. These are savage times where men and women wore little and life was brutal, short, dangerous but also sexy.

Sword and sorcery is a niche genre and RS is a niche character. They want to appeal to as wide an audience as possible but I think that’s a recipe for disaster here. Red Sonja isn’t a household name, she’s only a beloved character among freaks like us (I use that term lovingly, lol). From what I’ve seen and heard, this is a very low budget film, and it’s not going to appeal to a wider audience no matter how much they try to soften it for the average moviegoer. It’d be much more fun if they leaned into the schlockiness and channeled 70s and 80s Cannon-style films.

[shevek]

I’d love it if one of our esteemed SHIP producers took a stab at a peril version of Red Sonja. 70s and 80s Cannon-style films.

Yeah, that would be nice, wouldn't it?
There really is very little. All that exists on C4S is the one Primal video everyone should know about already,
a Lora Cross clip called "Two Barbarian Warlords Fuck to Seal the Deal",
and a short Red Sonja series that Candle Boxx did which also featured an original character called "Silver Freya".
That's it!

A couple years ago in the middle of starting Heroineburgh Season 2, I had acquired a bit of chainmail garb and was planning to create a Red Sonja style character called Kurgana the Barbarian. The idea would be that she would transform from a nerd girl whenever she threw a certain set of magical D&D dice, and it would change her from a meek mathematician into a sexy barbarian warrior motivated only by lust and strong drink (mead). Our very enthusiastic Comicon booth assistant at the time was going to portray the character, but then the whole world went into lockdown, and she had severe Covidphobia and didn't work at Cons anymore. I still see her around the campus at Carnegie Mellon, and to this day, she is still wearing a very elaborate mask everywhere in public. It was weird.

Anyway, yeah, somebody do Red Sonja, and maybe put a nerd-to-hot TF in there for me too, please. The obvious candidate would seem to be Lucia Films?

[Mr. X]

I’d love it if one of our esteemed SHIP producers took a stab at a peril version of Red Sonja. There are some fantastic cosplayers who could provide inspiration.

On my site the S&S stuff seems to be a big meh. And I toss in nasty monsters and sex sex sex. Maybe I'm not doing it right. I love all that Queen's Blade, Dragon's Crown, Goblin Slayer naughtiness.

[DonShip]

My fiction erotic fantasy series, Goblin Slayer Arwyn, is my best seller. So people are reading erotic fantasy.

[Mr. X]

My fiction erotic fantasy series, Goblin Slayer Arwyn, is my best seller. So people are reading erotic fantasy.

Interesting. I guess my front end doesn't advertise this as much. I wanted to do another site that was S&S but never got to it.

[DonShip]

S&S is my first love. Sorry superheroines. Wait, I fell in love with Wonder Woman before I discovered sword and sorcery. Mmmmm.