The Ultimate Superheroines Forum

This thread is meant to be a repository for all things Carol Danvers related (Ms Marvel / Captain Marvel / Warbird / Binary..and Ms Marvel related non-Danvers as well).

So..Marvel superheroines used to be red hot. And I don't mean in the bad-girl 90s, or in previous eras like the Bronze Age or Golden Age. The hottest depictions of heroines were done by artists as recently as the mid-2000s. This shows you just how recent the current Tumblrist/Twitterist nonsense is about sexualizing/de-maleifying the hero roster really is.

And there were excellent artists involved. For me, Ms Marvel is the second most beautiful superheroine on the Marvel roster next to She-Hulk. No matter who drew her over the years (at least until the recent Kelly Sue DeConnick/Captain Marvel stuff which has androgynized her), Carol was always depicted not only as smart, accomplished and skilled (in piloting, combat etc..take that STEM champions) but also as an extremely gorgeous and shapely blonde with flowing hair and the most basic sexy costume a superheroine could have: tight gloves, tight bodysuit, tight thigh-high boots [almost made for SHIP, really]. You couldn't want more.

Until you got to the 2007 era when Ms Marvel had her own book for several years (yes, that's right, she did! We didn't need third-wave Tumblr feminists or or a "Carol Corps" - basically Marvel's answer to DC's post-lgbt Bombshells - to make that happen). Then you had the all-male (gasp) of Roberto De La Torre, John Sibal and Chris Sotomayor (looks like Jimmy Palmiotti was involved for a bit as well) pounding out great issues like the ones you'll see below. When you realize that Ms Marvel (Carol) only had her own title twice (in 1977, and in 2006) until the recent Captain iteration, you realize how rare an opportunity like that is. They took full advantage of it. It ran for 50 issues and part of the theme was that Ms Marvel was (or was at least striving to be) the "best" hero in the Marvel Universe. She didn't have to look dykey or androgynous to do this, either. She was her old sexy self the entire time. A sexy woman as the most powerful/admired hero
on Earth. Imagine that happening in 2017...not.

The local library has a fantastic graphic novel section, and since the vast majority of the librarians here are female nerd/geeks of some sort or another, there is somewhat of an emphasis on female-led books, which can be good because for every Kamala Khan collection there can also be a Carol Danvers collection as well. I took out everything they had [four tpbs total] which collected Carol Danvers as Ms Marvel and here's the result:

First tpb I found collected #6-10 [where the Civil War commenced] and Special #1. In it, you not only see the breathtaking beauty of Ms Marvel in almost every panel, but also the very hot Julia Carpenter (Spiderwoman) who's involved in switching sides against Carol Danvers over the superhuman registration thing (that's what Civil War was about, if you don't remember..basically Danvers & Stark vs Cap America) and who's in love with muscular square-jawed hero The Shroud (funny how we don't see complaints about stereotypical presentation of male characters, hmmm). There's some Rogue, too (who has a very chequered past with our heroine).

Some examples. Let's just start with the cover of #1 for fun.



Goddamn, right? And this is as recent as 2006. Now let's go to some panels from the 6-10 I read. And by the way, the men in this comic (as I've mentioned) are drawn extremely handsomely as well.











[Yes, below, she is fighting herself from another universe. Plus Rogue. i.e. three-way catfight for most of the issue]



Space isn't the only thing that's beautiful.





In the annual #1 some action as both Ms Marvel and Binary:






Cover of #11 where Anya Corazon/Arana is Carol Danvers' sidekick (this goes on for a while). They were already starting the multiculturalist/hero-in-street-clothes push by then. Anya was cute, but they deliberately gave her an ugly looking burqafied insect carapace as a full costume, so she was really best seen without it as below.




OK, so those are examples from just the first 11 of 12 issues. If you want more trips down recent-memory lane about how wonderful Ms Marvel used to look..post in this thread and I'll bring up examples from the next 20 or so issues. Excelsior!

I know I'm in the minority, but I HATE the Warbird costume... It isn't the costume's physical design and cut mine you, it's that the black/lightningbolt motif has nothing to do with her origins or character. It's like the crap they pull when they put Spider man temporarily in a red and yellow 'iron suit' except it was worse because it lasted forever.

I'd really like to perhaps one day see an amalgamation of the Captain Marvel colors/emblem with Warbirds pieces (i.e. leotard. gloves. boots etc.) and as always, the sooner her hair grows back the better.

Was a fan of Ms. Marvel until the Civil War arc, which in my opinion, I didn't care for. Really felt like they assassinated Carol's character with that arc, especially with how she treated some of her so called closest friends. I just don't like it when they change a character's personality drastically just "because" and that's one of the main reasons I've been turned off of comics in the last few years.

Femina wrote:I'd really like to perhaps one day see an amalgamation of the Captain Marvel colors/emblem with Warbirds pieces (i.e. leotard. gloves. boots etc.) and as always, the sooner her hair grows back the better.

Funny you should say that

I thought the same, so had this made

Love Captain Marvel, hated Civil War 2, they really fucked her up for no reason. Don't care if Shevek is yet again butt hurt because a character evolved and isn't just 2D eye candy, just glad this has brought her into cartoon universe, the games and her movie.

Carol was definitely way more sexy as Ms Marvel

Femina - I hope you're not confused - Warbird isn't the costume with the lightning bolt - that's simply Ms Marvel. Warbird is the costume with the
silver and black armor.

Lionbadger, all respect due, but you contradict yourself. Either you want the character to be sexy, or you don't. Obviously you want Carol Danvers to be sexy or you wouldn't have had that amalgam made above (great job, by the way). So it looks like you're as "butthurt" as anyone, but you express it in more subtle ways, perhaps? If I'm dissatisfied about how Marvel is de-sexifying its female leads due to PC pressure from within its editorial offices, while DC largely isn't doing that, it's my right to be.

I agree with you that it's awesome that Marvel is finally putting out what will hopefully be a decent movie with a female lead (the first since Elektra), but we'll have to see how much they tamp down the sexy in Brie Larson's costume as well. She is gorgeous so I think she'll express it.

This is a thread about all things Carol Danvers, so say whatever you want to say, including about the newest Captain Marvel stuff. I didn't necessarily have a problem with superheroes ending up on opposite sides on Civil War I..and I do think Carol's personality fit the fact that she was a conflicted enforcer..but yes I thought a lot of the results of Civil War II were unnecessary (and yes, that goes again to Marvel's agenda to kill off and/or demote its white cis-males).

You don't have to agree with me in this thread at all.

shevek wrote:Lionbadger, all respect due, but you contradict yourself. Either you want the character to be sexy, or you don't. Obviously you want Carol Danvers to be sexy or you wouldn't have had that amalgam made above (great job, by the way).

Well, I actually had that done for an alt universe "Kate Sanders" who becomes Commander Marvelous (story available in the heroine dungeon). I don't think a jump suit precludes hotness. The only thing I dislike about her current look is the buzz cut because they have gone too far with "she's a soldier". I think she's much more and if memory serves she was a journo in her first outing as Ms Marvel, back when she was split personality.

Alternate universe or not, it's clear what you wished for And that's OK.

I don't think a jumpsuit precludes hotness either. There are plenty of superheroines in jumpsuits. She-Hulk can look mega-hot in one. So can Sue Storm, the female Scorpion, etc. It's the way the jumpsuit is drawn that precludes it.

The buzzcut is something that the third-wavers/Tumblrists in the Carol Corps applauded, simply because a good number of those people already had butch tendencies anyway (I'm not saying they're all lesbian or anything, just that they're not overtly feminine..) so they wanted to "see themselves" in the character. While those who preferred the sexy golden-tressed original decried it.

But here's the difference: the Carol Corps types who suddenly became fans under the Kelly DeConnick run might well have been comic geeks in some sense or another, but they were not really hardcore Ms Marvel fans..they were fair-weather fans who weren't longtime followers of the character Carol Danvers or her incarnations, they were mainly just fans of the butch incarnation that Marvel is now pushing.

And the number of Carol Corps members is miniscule. I saw a photo of Carol Corps members in my city last year and it was 3-4 people..they have no Internet presence now so they may have even dissolved. Other Carol Corps chapters are very small as well according to Facebook: SoCal 40, NoCal 9, Houston 11, Toronto 25 were the only ones I could find. That's a drop in the bucket. Basically a couple hundred women were probably hardcore fans of the butch incarnation and drove any internet interest that there was.

If that incarnation stops, they'll move on to something else that they feel represents them..because comics for them is about identity politics.
I even doubt they would buy books that happen to have the butch Captain Marvel in it (like the new Civil War II: The Oath which just came out), they just want to buy a book called Captain Marvel.

Millennials are picky. Because everything is micro-marketed to them and all of their opinion are reinforced by a bubble of confirmation bias, they'll only care about you or support you if you give them exactly what they want. The ones who are the most idealistic brook no compromise. Which was one of the reasons Hillary lost the election

But back to Carol Danvers: I'll post more Ms Marvel examples from that 50-issue 2000's run later on.

shevek wrote:But here's the difference: the Carol Corps types who suddenly became fans under the Kelly DeConnick run might well have been comic geeks in some sense or another, but they were not really hardcore Ms Marvel fans..they were fair-weather fans who weren't longtime followers of the character Carol Danvers or her incarnations, they were mainly just fans of the butch incarnation that Marvel is now pushing.

...because comics for them is about identity politics.

Chap, she's not "butch" in the Kelly Sue Deconnick run. She's hot and badass. She's Danvers at her best. She got ultra militarised for Civil War 2 and Marvel is panicking that they have flushed the good work to build this character down the drain now. There is a massive gear smashing in "Mighty captain marvel" and her look is beginging to soften.

It feels like you are feeling the identify politics. You're talking about buch carol corps and wailing that "millenials" (I hate these americanisms, the rest of the world gets on fine without dividing everything into a them and us team fight) and saying "oh it's all identity politics. Dude, just let it go, it's just a drawing.

Now

this is how you Danvers

[youtube]tpQ_l1XHL_g[/youtube]

I think all the pretty ponies are special.

That video preview is indeed hot and badass.

Just read through #0 and #1 of the new Mighty Captain Marvel (which I'm sure they're churning out in anticipation of the film).
Well, if her look is finally beginning to "soften", it sure took a while! Maybe they are doing that in time for the movie.
But I don't see any evidence of it in the graphics below. Still looks butch to me. Even still pushing the existence of the tiny Carol Corps fanclub, hoping that they will listen to and buy the records of some shitty band called The Pretty Reckless (see below).
Another thing I noticed is that apparently she puts on this physical suit instead of transforming the way Ms Marvel did.

You might be peaceful in England there, but the rest of the world is involved in tons of conflicts..almost everyone has an "us and them" attitude.









Here, the comic literally makes fun of a sexy cleavaged Captain Marvel who loves men, played by a movie actress. AND, there is a sly reference to the "woke" millennial bullshit about "punching down" that pervades Kamala-laden books like Champions, not to mention the "DeConnick" on the director's chair as if the current writer Margaret Stohl is desperate for KDC's approval of the character's continuity. It's also pretty obvious that the alien refugee story arc is an allegory for Middle Eastern refugees etc in US and Europe. Blue-skinned Kree are the oppressed segment of the Kree race. Building the "atmospheric shield" is building Trump's wall. The comic pushes all the correct PC buttons.

So if you're telling me the character's being "softened"..I have yet to see it. She is as butch as the day is long. Even butchier than before, perhaps, now that she's sporting the "Hitler Youth" (heh) style haircut that the millennial hipster dudes are all wearing (I see them in every indie-rock bar I go into). All possible curvaceousness has been tamped down. Feministing all day against boob windows. Pretty much looks it fits right within Marvel's current agenda. At this rate, we may well expect Brie Larson to sport that short haircut.

You know what I believe? I think one reason they have to make her seem so unfeminine is that underneath all of that she is a still a white blonde cis female, who is far up on the list of the oppression progressive stack (just under the dreaded white cis male). So they have to make up for her unfortunate all-Americanness by making her seem as unfeminine as they can get away with. I might be kidding here..but I would not be surprised if there is a movement among some members of the tiny Carol Corps to have Carol declare that her preferred pronoun is "they".

*Kersnort* Okay now I KNOW they are trolling us with the hair. Every new series it's even SHORTER than before xD. It's a stupid haircut... but I am still finding myself giggling with laughter over the whole thing, especially with them throwing the flowing waist length cut in the 'movie'...

I suspect it might hold to the movie, then we'll see if they run the film with the haircut, cause whatever she's wearing in the film is invariably what she will begin sporting in the comics.

Edit:

This shows you just how recent the current Tumblrist/Twitterist nonsense

I won't argue that Twitter isn't the breeding pool of all evil, but you're equally as likely to find a psychopath spouting how he'd like to 'Rape my dick down your cunt mouth' (apologies for the graphic language but... that's the basis of half of twitter these days and it doesn't help anything to sugar coat it... though considering the state of spelling on twitter these days perhaps it'd be more like 'Rape my Dik doun UR Kunt Moth!' allowing that it's less than 256 characters) as you are to find any women telling a guy they are sexist for this reason or that reason... but at least they don't ordinarily come with death or rape threats.