The Ultimate Superheroines Forum

Posted: **Sat Sep 16, 2023 3:03 pm**

Splitting out from another discussion.

Is this superheroine fetish genre dying?
Are parts dying?
Is it merely changing?
Did we need the Carter/Craig influence in young boys to create a bunch of thirsty fetish people?
Are men (and yes this fetish is driven mostly by men) merely becoming too disengaged or docile or uninterested?
Is the new offering of heroines off putting?
Are producers not offering compelling kink any longer?
How does this compare to the anime/hentai community? Is that dying?
Are there outside forces censoring this content?

Posted: **Sat Sep 16, 2023 3:14 pm**

There is a trend to being cautious and not wanting to offend in the mainstream media.

I could rehash how we don't get to see Wonder Woman in bondage.

But does anyone imagine Rey or any of the Kathleen Kennedy's character being in the slave girl outfit Leia work in the Jabba the Hut scene
or for those who remember the Excalibur Movie the violent sex in that movie

or even compare the interaction between Batman and Catwoman, the Ketaton/Pfiffer vs the Bale/Hathaway

Posted: **Sat Sep 16, 2023 3:28 pm**

I do recall people being hyper sensitive about Gadot in justice league showing a 5 frame pop up of her skirt or 5 second booty pan scene while ignoring the male fan service. Not sure why the studios cater to that when the church ladies in the past made similar comments and Hollywood gave us Raquel welch in 1 Mil BC. And plenty of main stream stuff show twerking and booty.

Seems WW in particular gets clamped down on. In games she's an absolute shrew or hideously done. In Injustice animation she was pretty harsh. In the Suicide Squad game she's pretty sexed down.

Maybe people are now finding titillation easier with OF or twitch.

Posted: **Sat Sep 16, 2023 4:15 pm**

Wow. Great point. I think we did need Yvonne Craig, Linda Carter, and Julie Newmar to create the Superheroine fetish. I didn't even know I had it until I Googled something back in the 1990s and Superheroine Demise popped up.

Posted: **Sat Sep 16, 2023 4:22 pm**

Victor wrote: ↑
2 years ago
Wow. Great point. I think we did need Yvonne Craig, Linda Carter, and Julie Newmar to create the Superheroine fetish. I didn't even know I had it until I Googled something back in the 1990s and Superheroine Demise popped up.

That and 70-90s comics with the hot artwork. I had the fetish before Carter.

Posted: **Sat Sep 16, 2023 6:32 pm**

I expect there is someone out there that will fondly remember “The Perils of Batgirl” and O-girl and Nylonika and create homages to the spirit of the genre.

People who grew up in the seventies will always see Batgirl and WW a certain way. Kids from the early 2000s will think of Totally Spies and Kim Possible for their fetish fuel. Giga Heroines are big in Japan because the people making them grew up with Sailor Moon, Space Sheriffs and Power Rangers.

I don’t think YC’s Batgirl or LC WWwill persist because, by modern standards, they were pretty sexist depictions of women. Batgirl wasn’t allowed to punch or use judo because the producers were thought it was unladylike. And she would become an instant damsel in distress once captured. WW and Emma Peele’s first functions were as eye candy and then as characters. There was no ambiguity about Mrs Peele getting tied up in leather outfits. It was fetish for ratings. We just aren’t as likely to get stuff that blatant anymore.

Episodic TV is completely different today. Stories have season long arcs that make the old bat-trap/monster of the week formulas work anymore. The Angel’s aren’t going to land in Cabo, change into bikinis for their cover as aerobic instructors and split up to explore the old mill…

These things go in cycles, so it will come around again. Remember the action adventure shows and moviesof the 1980s were the results of homages to the serials and sy-fi of the 1940s and 50s. And where ever the culture goes, porn is sure to follow…

Posted: **Sat Sep 16, 2023 7:11 pm**

Mr. X wrote: ↑
2 years ago
Splitting out from another discussion.

Is this superheroine fetish genre dying?

The fetishes people love tend to be rooted in tropes in superhero comics that were commonplace during the first four or five decades of the genre, but were phased out when the market switched to an older audience.

The Adam West Batman show exaggerated these tropes for comic effect: the overblown peril situations, the absurdity of secret identities, the simple POW! ZAP! BIFF! combat. What producer William Dozier realised was that comics -- back in the days when the medium was still aimed at children -- were filled with very pure bits of melodrama. Dozier turning the dial up to 11 and overplayed the tropes for camp comic effect of course, but those self-same simple melodramatic tropes could also serve as ideal fodder for fetishes.

During the Modern Age (mid-Eighties and later) the target audience for comics changed, and many of the tropes changed too. When was the last time a superhero was tied up next to a ticking time bomb? In the age of Yvonne Craig's Batgirl and Lynda Carter's Wonder Woman these kinds of situations were seen as a staple part of the superhero genre. These days something as simple as binding your hero next to a ticking bomb would only be done in an ironic way, to parody and/or pay homage to the simpler storytelling of bygone ages. Likewise heroes no longer wrestle and fist fight their enemies, they swoosh around the skies in epic special-effect laden mega-battles filled with collapsing buildings, bullet-time effects, and digitally generated pyrotechnics. No self respecting modern hero would be seen dead judo-throwing their opponents around like Lynda Carter did. But the problem is this: there just isn't a lot of fetish potential in a modern Gal Gadot CGI extravaganza like there was seeing Lynda Carter get bear-hugged by an alien in a cloak and cheap Darth Vader mask.

(Case in point: the modern era has long since abandoned the notion of secret identities as being childish. So if you get a kick out of seeing your heroines ripping open their everyday clothes to reveal their action attire, you're pretty much going to either be limited to stuff published before the mid-80s, or stuff that deliberately draws influence from stuff published before the mid-80s (as the Benoist Supergirl did.))

Sooooo... it may not be that the decline in superheroine fetishism is due to the Communist Leftist Woke Liberal Hollywood Elite's campaign to cancel sexy superheroines as part of their ongoing crusade to stop anyone from having fun, it may just be that once the superhero genre started to pitch its stories at adults rather than kids (and tv/movie adaptations did the same) a lot of the simple melodrama tropes that lay at the heart of many superhero-related fetishes were abandoned because they seemed just too old-fashioned and childish.

Not a liberal plot, just a consequence of the genre now being aimed at a more sophisticated audience...

R5

Posted: **Sat Sep 16, 2023 8:07 pm**

five_red wrote: ↑
2 years ago

Not a liberal plot, just a consequence of the genre now being aimed at a more sophisticated audience...

R5

It's both, R5. Twitter crazies attack what they see as sexism all the time *and* it's a different audience today. Both are true!
And speaking of different audiences, there's a third factor: most young people are into anime, not American superheroes.
There is a lot of fetish and prurient stuff in anime, it just happens to different characters than the ones we are used to.
Rule 43 will dictate, for example, that although the live-action version of Nami from One Piece doesn't really go very far, there will be lots of online XXX depictions of her and there will be lots of sexy cosplay of her at conventions.
Therefore, the next step is: stop making super-sexy parodies of Marvel and DC heroines, and start making them of anime characters!
(And maybe also characters from The Boys and Stranger Things - they are very popular too)
Then, suddenly you will see lots of younger people latching onto the heroine fetish. You need to meet them with what they know best.

Posted: **Sun Sep 17, 2023 12:08 am**

Lets not get into some left/right thing. I don't think a fetish can be killed by banning it, in fact that would make it more appealing.

I would say the lack of any sexiness is a huge issue. The second Shazam movie had the girls getting wrapped up in cables which was cool.But that's like the only sexy scene in a long while. Maybe Gal Gadot beaten up by cheetah. Add to that unappealing or unwelcoming female characters who always have to play the same boiler plate person.

Supergirl first couple of seasons had some peril but even that didn't have that much appeal to it. Seemed to be attempts though like Kara stomping through a portal to some red sun planet then its 50 shades of grey for Kara.

Posted: **Sun Sep 17, 2023 3:01 am**

shevek wrote: ↑
2 years ago
.....most young people are into anime, not American superheroes.
There is a lot of fetish and prurient stuff in anime, it just happens to different characters than the ones we are used to.
Rule 43 will dictate, for example, that although the live-action version of Nami from One Piece doesn't really go very far, there will be lots of online XXX depictions of her and there will be lots of sexy cosplay of her at conventions.

there's probably something in this, although query "young people", I'm in my 40s and I'm too young for the wonder woman batgirl stuff that dominates most superheroine fetish content. It's more She Ra, supergirl 84, michelle pfeiffer's catwoman, Xena, every Mila Jovich film that she's flipping around and kicking arse in that would have been my basis.

also, the plethora of available mainstream stuff that wasn't there pre 2010s, you can argue if it is "sexy" enough or not, but it's something that was considered toxic for a long time and didn't appear until recently.

all in all, hard to tell without some hard data to analyise

Posted: **Sun Sep 17, 2023 3:53 am**

lionbadger wrote: ↑
2 years ago

shevek wrote: ↑
2 years ago
.....most young people are into anime, not American superheroes.
There is a lot of fetish and prurient stuff in anime, it just happens to different characters than the ones we are used to.
Rule 43 will dictate, for example, that although the live-action version of Nami from One Piece doesn't really go very far, there will be lots of online XXX depictions of her and there will be lots of sexy cosplay of her at conventions.
there's probably something in this, although query "young people", I'm in my 40s and I'm too young for the wonder woman batgirl stuff that dominates most superheroine fetish content. It's more She Ra, supergirl 84, michelle pfeiffer's catwoman, Xena, every Mila Jovich film that she's flipping around and kicking arse in that would have been my basis.

also, the plethora of available mainstream stuff that wasn't there pre 2010s, you can argue if it is "sexy" enough or not, but it's something that was considered toxic for a long time and didn't appear until recently.

all in all, hard to tell without some hard data to analyise

It's not that hard to figure out. You've just described the issue in a nutshell. Yes, you're "lower half Gen X" (I like to call them 'Lollapaloozers' because in the US they would have been the right age to attend those festivals) as opposed to upper half Gen X or boomer (which would be the range for the WW/BG material) but you're still driven primarily by live-action peril and there was a ton of it in the 80s, 90s and even the early 00s (Hence, the aforementioned Totally Spies) plus the amazing Batman and X-Men TAS, etc.

After that, live-action peril and US cartoon peril was much more limited in scope, although we do have to give credit to the Supergirl TV show for keeping a bit of it alive in the first couple seasons. When we talk about "young people" we're not talking mid-40s (which is the age of the 90s-era comic buying crowd that has walked away from DC and Marvel) but we are definitely talking about millennials and zoomers. Basically those under 40.

Almost any peril they draw from is going to be something from anime and manga (and there is plenty of it in that genre - I see peril clips from anime all the time on Youtube). So, in order to adapt, the SHIP scene has to start adapting more and more Japanese animation scenarios and get used to terms like hentai, yandere, yuri, henshin, bishojo, ryona and ahegao.

Amy Fantasy, for example, had the right idea when she did a whole bunch of sexy anime girl scenarios mixed in with her SHIP work. Belle Delphine has been doing anime porn work for a long time. I'm sure there are lots of camgirl and Only Fans types doing the same thing, and if you search for "anime" on C4S you'll find XXX cosplay girls doing it, but it hasn't really caught on much in the SHIP scene itself. It's going to have to, if audience appeal to the under-40s is a factor to revitalizing the community.

I mean, the Japanese actually coined the term "cosplay" to begin with.

Posted: **Sun Sep 17, 2023 4:42 am**

Our fetish genre for me is not dying, there's a lot of producers even in Japan,with lot of title. There's also an italian site (sexyfightingdreams) that is devoted to jungle girl catfight bondage. For the mainstream, well feminist/woke have ruined all,Star Wars,Ms.Marvel,She Hulk are the horrible results,in the videogame we have a feminist (Sarkeesian) who complain for the sexualization of women in video games, the result is that we have all this crap from mainstream movies and also video games. Gal Gadot has refused to play a part what Flash is throwed on her and accidentally touch her breasts. A scene that we have seen a lot in anime, but seems that now is too much.
So folks for me I follow this simple rule: I don't watch Mainstream products for superhero, if you want to be aroused watch adult movies about superheroines

Posted: **Sun Sep 17, 2023 5:08 am**

The question with anime: and except for watching some Yu yu Hakusho and very early Dragon Ball, I am not that knowledgible, are there enough strong female characters for the male audience?

In the former you really only have Genka'(in her young girl form) Bouma, Keiko, Kuramba's sister and in the laters ones Makuro and Namaste

Dragon Ball you have Bouma and Chichi,

Posted: **Sun Sep 17, 2023 11:08 am**

cartman666x wrote: ↑
2 years ago
Gal Gadot has refused to play a part what Flash is throwed on her and accidentally touch her breasts. A scene that we have seen a lot in anime, but seems that now is too much.

I don't blame Gadot for not wanting to do that scene. Miller is a creep, he's a d-lister and the scene was stupid. It ruined the whole pace of the entire segment. What I object to is people upset about a 5 second scene of Gadot's booty when she's watching Wayne get off an airplane yet no complaint about a shirtless Cavil for 25 minutes. The bias is pretty obvious. Same with Hemsworth stripped naked and chained down. So clearly the people complaining about objectification are off their rockers. Yes there is definitely a crowd who wants to pee in the punch bowl of nerd men for some reason.

Posted: **Sun Sep 17, 2023 1:42 pm**

shevek wrote: ↑
2 years ago
When we talk about "young people" we're not talking mid-40s (which is the age of the 90s-era comic buying crowd that has walked away from DC and Marvel) but we are definitely talking about millennials and zoomers. Basically those under 40.

I'm a Millenial

I turned 20 in the millenium, which was 23 (nearly 24) years ago, young millenials are what? 30? mid 30s?

for all that these lazy newspaper terms mean anything

Posted: **Sun Sep 17, 2023 1:56 pm**

cartman666x wrote: ↑
2 years ago
Gal Gadot has refused to play a part what Flash is throwed on her and accidentally touch her breasts. A scene that we have seen a lot in anime, but seems that now is too much.

I think I can understand an actress refusing to be groped by a creepy little goblin boy just for a cheap laugh in a dead franchise

Anime is 99% garbage, endless stupid exposition and dumb speeches then 20 minutes of some moron shouting out his moves before getting on with the actual fight and don't get me started on the ick of "oh she's not 12, she's a 4000 year old vampire"

Posted: **Sun Sep 17, 2023 3:32 pm**

lionbadger wrote: ↑
2 years ago

shevek wrote: ↑
2 years ago
When we talk about "young people" we're not talking mid-40s (which is the age of the 90s-era comic buying crowd that has walked away from DC and Marvel) but we are definitely talking about millennials and zoomers. Basically those under 40.

I'm a Millenial

I turned 20 in the millenium, which was 23 (nearly 24) years ago, young millenials are what? 30? mid 30s?

for all that these lazy newspaper terms mean anything

Yes, the leading edge of the millennials is just around 40 right now.
That makes lower half Gen Xers essentially 41-51 right now (remembering being a kid in the 80s, flowering of influence in the 90s)
and the upper half 52-62. (remembering being a kid in the 70s, flowering of influence in the 80s)
Yes it means something. Frames of reference, waves of youthful purchasing power, which pop culture franchises are revived or rise & fall, etc.

As for anime, there's a ton of sexy stuff in it all the time.

Posted: **Sun Sep 17, 2023 3:48 pm**

Mr. X wrote: ↑
2 years ago
Splitting out from another discussion.

Is the new offering of heroines off putting?

Totally. The girls aren't sexy and don't try to be sexy. They universally either hate men or have no interest in them and they dress these superheroines like androgynous action figures. It's pathetic and depressing. You can see the evolution of Supergirl from the beginning to whenever it was I stopped following because they stopped showing skin.

Whoever is producing these films really needs to rewatch some Black Scorpion episodes and see what it meant to have a total fuck doll who looks like she actually wants to fuck once in a while be able to kick some actual ass too and not be totally disgusted by the supporting cast salivating over her in a tight outfit.

Posted: **Sun Sep 17, 2023 3:53 pm**

shevek wrote: ↑
2 years ago
As for anime, there's a ton of sexy stuff in it all the time.

And the women don't hate the men or are not ambivalent toward the men. And the producers don't hate or lesson teach their core audience.

Posted: **Sun Sep 17, 2023 7:26 pm**

Interesting conversation and point of view from different generations.

This is my two cents.
Are big producers afraid to be censored by showing a girl being dominated by men?
Or showing a men who is more superior in thinking and fighting than a girl?
I could go on with these lines and it wouldn't bring back the genre we are looking for.

I don't want to change the conversation, only wanting to share what girls are saying when together...
We, girls, when together are sharing fantasies, what aroused us and what we are dreaming about. Most of us (five out of twelve) are waiting to be tied up by someone we trust. It take a long time to decide who we choose. The process we made is almost the same with all the girls I know. It maybe hard to explain but to keep it as simple as possible, let's say we have to choose between Thor and John Steed, well the answer will be Steed and not because he wear a tuxedo but he is calm, confident, intelligent and most of all, he know how to treat a woman like a real gentlemen.

How old you are make no difference, between the flash and Indiana Jones, I'll choose Mr. Jones please!

It won't change how movies and show will be made but it could change your desires, your life.
Don't be afraid to bring bondage in a discussion with a girl you would love to tied up. Use the simple way, bring a funny discussion, tell her ''stop annoying me, stop making me laugh or I'll tied you up'' If her eyes soften and she's showing a little smile, the answer is yes, you found one. If not, try with another girl till you'll find one. As I said before, girls when together, love to share bed time stories and fantasies. The first time, hold your emotions and let her decide the way she would love to be tied up, patience is the key. Be soft with her, use cotton rope (marks), doesn't need to be so tight that her blood circulation could become a problem or cause severe damages, using lots of ropes is a must. Show her the bundle of ropes first, it's the best way to start arousing her, your goal is to try to reach her maximum level of desires, you'll get yours by the same time.

Movies and shows not giving me what I want, I don't care. I want the real thing!
Btw, I'n in the mid-twenties!

Posted: **Sun Sep 17, 2023 8:07 pm**

Personally if I had a choice between Wonder Woman and Enna Peel I would take Emma!!!

Posted: **Mon Sep 18, 2023 10:04 am**

MaryAnn wrote: ↑
2 years ago
Interesting conversation and point of view from different generations.

This is my two cents.
Are big producers afraid to be censored by showing a girl being dominated by men?
Or showing a men who is more superior in thinking and fighting than a girl?
I could go on with these lines and it wouldn't bring back the genre we are looking for.

I don't want to change the conversation, only wanting to share what girls are saying when together...
We, girls, when together are sharing fantasies, what aroused us and what we are dreaming about. Most of us (five out of twelve) are waiting to be tied up by someone we trust. It take a long time to decide who we choose. The process we made is almost the same with all the girls I know. It maybe hard to explain but to keep it as simple as possible, let's say we have to choose between Thor and John Steed, well the answer will be Steed and not because he wear a tuxedo but he is calm, confident, intelligent and most of all, he know how to treat a woman like a real gentlemen.

How old you are make no difference, between the flash and Indiana Jones, I'll choose Mr. Jones please!

It won't change how movies and show will be made but it could change your desires, your life.
Don't be afraid to bring bondage in a discussion with a girl you would love to tied up. Use the simple way, bring a funny discussion, tell her ''stop annoying me, stop making me laugh or I'll tied you up'' If her eyes soften and she's showing a little smile, the answer is yes, you found one. If not, try with another girl till you'll find one. As I said before, girls when together, love to share bed time stories and fantasies. The first time, hold your emotions and let her decide the way she would love to be tied up, patience is the key. Be soft with her, use cotton rope (marks), doesn't need to be so tight that her blood circulation could become a problem or cause severe damages, using lots of ropes is a must. Show her the bundle of ropes first, it's the best way to start arousing her, your goal is to try to reach her maximum level of desires, you'll get yours by the same time.

Movies and shows not giving me what I want, I don't care. I want the real thing!
Btw, I'n in the mid-twenties!

By your fantasy choices, you have a cultured soul. I doubt many people in theier 20s would even know who John Steed is?

Posted: **Mon Sep 18, 2023 10:33 am**

Dazzle1 wrote: ↑
2 years ago
By your fantasy choices, you have a cultured soul. I doubt many people in theier 20s would even know who John Steed is?

I was born in a very small and poor village, the only shows we could watch were from decades ago.
That's why, as a child, Steed and Peel had a big impact on me. I didn't had much interest watching Batman, till Batgirl joined the duo!

When I grew up, I moved to a big city (university) and found a good job. Spending most of my time studying and working, I never had the time to watch all the shows from the late 80's till now. As for superheroines, my mind is still stuck in the late 60's and 70's!

Posted: **Mon Sep 18, 2023 12:34 pm**

Is the fetish dying out?

No. I don't think so. People will like what they like. It was a thing back in the day with minimal inspiration, and these days there is so much more to inspire I think it is probably healthier than it has been in the past. It's a 'product' with a 'demand' so lets look at it in that light.

Is the whole notion of Superheroine Peril still profitable?

This is a totally different question. It calls down the fundamental basics of supply and demand. As i previously said, people are going to like what they like. The number of people should be stable, or even larger from exposure. The fundamental difference is the available media to satisfy those needs. In the early days, there was none. A few fan websites that went professional were the few outlets providing modest supply for an untapped market. It's years later now, and going to a single source (Clips4sale) you can do a superheroine search and come up with hundreds of hits by dozens of producers. Open the scope beyond that to various fetish sites... customer sites.... and sites that actually cater to the genre and well... it's a lot to take in. At this point Darwin will take over and cull the weak and those those just looking to cash in on a popular genre.

Is mainstream media better or worse than 'back in the day'.

I think we need to consider what exactly 'better' conveys. The whole discussion of Quantity vs Quality. If we're talking quantity. Things are better. Even beyond the appeal of fetish, there are just so many more options to look at. Marvel... DC... obviously have presented way more than 'back in the day'. This is in both big screen cinema and small screen seasons. The one place they do seem to have suffered is printed media, the actual orginal media (which is a little sad). If we're talking quality. Now it's debatable. Special effects and costumes have come along way. Even for fan and fetish projects, some really nice stuff has been produced. The social climate of political correctness and what's acceptable, that's another story. It's not even just 'this' genre. Across other franchises like Star Trek (gone are the mini skirt dress uniforms?) Bond films (Bond Girls with raw appeal) and just about any other genre you care to pick is... 'different'. I have mixed feelings about this. While i found it somewhat disappointing, i accept that it is what it is, and it at least provides material for secondary fetish/fan markets to explore and fill the potential.

Is there a future for this genre?

I think that it will always exist in some shape way or form. The real question is what the Supply and Demand will look like. The biggest and greatest hey days may be gone, or yet to come, but it will always exist in some form. If we cut out 90% to 95% of the superheroine stuff floating around, we still have more stuff than we did two decades ago?

Posted: **Mon Sep 18, 2023 2:32 pm**

Kitten wrote: ↑
2 years ago
Is the fetish dying out?

Is mainstream media better or worse than 'back in the day'.

I think we need to consider what exactly 'better' conveys. The whole discussion of Quantity vs Quality. If we're talking quantity. Things are better. Even beyond the appeal of fetish, there are just so many more options to look at. Marvel... DC... obviously have presented way more than 'back in the day'. This is in both big screen cinema and small screen seasons. The one place they do seem to have suffered is printed media, the actual orginal media (which is a little sad). If we're talking quality. Now it's debatable. Special effects and costumes have come along way. Even for fan and fetish projects, some really nice stuff has been produced. The social climate of political correctness and what's acceptable, that's another story. It's not even just 'this' genre. Across other franchises like Star Trek (gone are the mini skirt dress uniforms?) Bond films (Bond Girls with raw appeal) and just about any other genre you care to pick is... 'different'. I have mixed feelings about this. While i found it somewhat disappointing, i accept that it is what it is, and it at least provides material for secondary fetish/fan markets to explore and fill the potential.

Respectfully disagree. There is no question that this:

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0155425/me ... xt_shr_lnk

Is 1000x better than this:

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4016454/me ... xt_shr_lnk

Posted: **Mon Sep 18, 2023 4:30 pm**

CIA wrote: ↑
2 years ago

Kitten wrote: ↑
2 years ago
Is the fetish dying out?

Is mainstream media better or worse than 'back in the day'.

I think we need to consider what exactly 'better' conveys. The whole discussion of Quantity vs Quality. If we're talking quantity. Things are better. Even beyond the appeal of fetish, there are just so many more options to look at. Marvel... DC... obviously have presented way more than 'back in the day'. This is in both big screen cinema and small screen seasons. The one place they do seem to have suffered is printed media, the actual orginal media (which is a little sad). If we're talking quality. Now it's debatable. Special effects and costumes have come along way. Even for fan and fetish projects, some really nice stuff has been produced. The social climate of political correctness and what's acceptable, that's another story. It's not even just 'this' genre. Across other franchises like Star Trek (gone are the mini skirt dress uniforms?) Bond films (Bond Girls with raw appeal) and just about any other genre you care to pick is... 'different'. I have mixed feelings about this. While i found it somewhat disappointing, i accept that it is what it is, and it at least provides material for secondary fetish/fan markets to explore and fill the potential.

Respectfully disagree. There is no question that this:

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0155425/me ... xt_shr_lnk

Is 1000x better than this:

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4016454/me ... xt_shr_lnk
[/quo

----------------

Quality is subjective

Star Trek TOS, Clkassic DR who are far better story and acting wise over the newer version, but technical effects are terrible.

Going back to the fetish question, the question goes back to money. If someone can make enough money producing what most of us like; it will continue.

Posted: **Tue Sep 19, 2023 3:26 am**

I am pretty sure this conversation happened in another thread already

'Superheroine fetish' of course isn't dying. Arguably - its never been more popular.

What is dying is 'high end superheroine fetish filmmaking'. And I think the mechanics of 'why' are rather easy to understand - the audience who consumes that kind of content has come to have not just high end expectations of the content but micro-niche needs in order to justify the purchase. It isn't enough that the content is shot well, directed well and perfectly casted - they need it to perfectly catered to what THEY need to get off and as time goes on that becomes more and more specific. And while the audiences needs become more demanding and more specific - the directors who produced high end content will eventually age out. Wether that be from doing it too long (two + decades) or leaving their 40s/50s into their 60s, thinking about retirement etc. That becomes a high end content killer because - young and new directors don't stand a chance to produce content thats high end enough to even be considered by an audience thats micro niche - high end only.

It takes time to become good at filmmaking. Even more time to become good at action filmmaking. Even more time to become good at superheroine high end filmmaking with special effects, fight scenes and perfectly made costumes.

I think in the next ten years you will see some of the biggest names of this genre leave. And you will probably see a couple young filmmakers come and try their hand. But I don't see a reality where new talent will stand a chance to a audience like this ones, with how specific and high end the communities taste has become.

But there will always be an OnlyFans model wearing cosplay shooting some hardcore scenes. You just won't get a 60 minute epic with a full blown action scene and storyline included.

P.S. whats up with all the ageism on here lately? I have noticed this 'special butterfly' attitude lately with people thinking they can speak for all members of a similar age group. I am in my 30s. I grew up on Lynda Carter and 66 Batman reruns. You don't have to be in your 60s to get '60s kink'.

Posted: **Tue Sep 19, 2023 6:26 am**

SHL wrote: ↑
2 years ago

P.S. whats up with all the ageism on here lately? I have noticed this 'special butterfly' attitude lately with people thinking they can speak for all members of a similar age group. I am in my 30s. I grew up on Lynda Carter and 66 Batman reruns. You don't have to be in your 60s to get '60s kink'.

Part of what we are guilty on, is in the mianstream some of us see lack of knowledge of earlier time from the 20-30s crowd

Case in point - Many people who watch the Tom Cruise Mission Impossible Movies have no idea is is based on a TV show from the 60s.
Which I think was far better

A great parody of this from many years ago was on Saturday Night Live (when SNL was hood) when you had a shallow 20 something reviewing the colorized version of the Wizard of Oz and she claims that the Tin woodman is ripped off from C3PO

Posted: **Tue Sep 19, 2023 8:17 am**

Barbara Bain forever!!!

Posted: **Tue Sep 19, 2023 8:54 am**

I just think that you grow up during a certain time or place, one is introduced to certain images, influences, experiences, and I think that experience differs from one generation to the next. Not better than or worse, just different. I have a younger friend who tells me his entre into SHIP was due in part to the Power Rangers, heroines like Sailor Moon, anime from Dragon Ball Z and Giga films, (I have no frame of reference for any of those except for a vague awareness of the power Rangers) and that is totally different than the influences I grew up with like Lynda Carter's Wonder Woman, Yvonne Craig's Batgirl, and Helen Slater's Supergirl. With that kind of differences in influences from one generation to the next, it's easy to understand how we come about our SHIP fetish in different ways and styles. All I know is when we have an appreciation thread about Lynda Carter, Helen Slater, or Yvonne Craig and their memorable superheroine alter egos, the posts seem to be almost exclusively from us older folks who admired those great ladies in that bygone era.

Posted: **Tue Sep 19, 2023 9:42 am**

bushwackerbob wrote: ↑
2 years ago
I just think that you grow up during a certain time or place, one is introduced to certain images, influences, experiences, and I think that experience differs from one generation to the next. Not better than or worse, just different. I have a younger friend who tells me his entre into SHIP was due in part to the Power Rangers, heroines like Sailor Moon, anime from Dragon Ball Z and Giga films, (I have no frame of reference for any of those except for a vague awareness of the power Rangers) and that is totally different than the influences I grew up with like Lynda Carter's Wonder Woman, Yvonne Craig's Batgirl, and Helen Slater's Supergirl. With that kind of differences in influences from one generation to the next, it's easy to understand how we come about our SHIP fetish in different ways and styles. All I know is when we have an appreciation thread about Lynda Carter, Helen Slater, or Yvonne Craig and their memorable superheroine alter egos, the posts seem to be almost exclusively from us older folks who admired those great ladies in that bygone era.

I'd agree with this, I grew up with Batman and of course Batgirl and Catwoman through TV Land reruns, but the heroines I spent the most time with were the Power Rangers, Sailor Moon, Raven from Teen Titans, etc. As long as there are cute/hot heroines in tight outfits the fetish will survive, but the references we use and the characters we imprint our fetishes on will change.

Though porn production from people who appreciate the classics will always effect the future. I probably stumbled into the likes of Giga, Hypnotics World and Superheroine Central earlier than I should have, but those were the wild west days of the internet. These days kids tend to explore less because big services like Youtube or Tik Tok are better at controlling their attention. But the algorithm makes mistakes and there's definitely still SHIP content on Youtube, who knows what the future holds?

Posted: **Tue Sep 19, 2023 9:53 am**

In general the superheroine genre is good.

However, something has changed. I’ve recently revisited some older material – not just videos, but images and stories – and, honestly, they’re better. Even though today’s tech is incredible, I see more creativity in the past. And, no, I’m not a Boomer or a Gen Xer. I didn’t grow up on Carter or Peel or whoever.

But I do see more fun, especially in early 20’s content. I don’t mean silliness, but a certain resourcefulness. It’s almost like the tech constraints pushed creators to innovate. For all of today’s glitz and glamor, I’m not so sure I see this anymore (at least not to the same extent). I’m not trying to knock anyone. There are some great modern producers around. But it does feel like the genre has grown stagnant.

Personally, I think the field could use some new blood. In this sense, the genre is dying. Not from a lack of interest but from a dirth of ideas. It needs to evolve. The scenarios and plots were being given feel stale. And while I’m excited for new tech to come, some other forms of innovation are also needed.

Posted: **Tue Sep 19, 2023 12:11 pm**

SHL wrote: ↑
2 years ago
P.S. whats up with all the ageism on here lately? I have noticed this 'special butterfly' attitude lately with people thinking they can speak for all members of a similar age group. I am in my 30s. I grew up on Lynda Carter and 66 Batman reruns. You don't have to be in your 60s to get '60s kink'.

That's funny and a bit off-base, if you might excuse my criticism, because it's actually *you* who are the special precocious butterfly - the rare younger breed who knows and cares about the past history of the genre. You're perfectly aware that the vast number of people your age or younger mostly do not. For example, even the core audience for *90s* content (say, Xena or Black Scorpion) is people in their mid-40s - those are the pull-list whales who have walked away from the comic shops in droves.

Even people in their 30s do not clearly remember the 90s. They might, if they are lucky, recall some early 00s stuff like Totally Spies, some sexy moments from the X-Men franchise (how hot was Mystique, amirite?), or some sexy superheroine costumes from the New 52, etc. But I remind everyone that the Current Year is Twenty TWENTY-THREE.

We're not 'butterflies', Damien - we are an *entire privileged generation*. Or two (boomers + GenX). Literally millions of us witnessed the Golden Age of this stuff the first time around, thousands of us developed a fetish because of it, and now, hundreds of us are on a couple of forums. [Note: this might be different for other parts of the world which are not the West, such as in Asia, where superheroine fetish content peaked a generation later. So their average audience member is a bit younger.]

You're an amazing producer and a beacon for the future, but you don't stand for a young audience. If that young audience exists, it will be found almost exclusively among the manga and anime fans - the weeaboos, as they call them. And as the current crop of producers age out, as you've said, any newer studios will have to cater almost exclusively to the weebs, who are really not going to know or care very much about the DC Trinity of Hotness or the Gotham Sirens (unless movies get made or something).

Or, they could not give a frak, and just continue to do whatever retro-flavored stuff they feel like doing...like we do.

Posted: **Tue Sep 19, 2023 6:23 pm**

tmon wrote: ↑
2 years ago
Barbara Bain forever!!!

HA! Me too! Space 1999

Posted: **Tue Sep 19, 2023 6:26 pm**

I do think models were easier to get vs today where they spend more time on their OF accounts than doing gigs.

Posted: **Tue Sep 19, 2023 7:16 pm**

Mr. X wrote: ↑
2 years ago

tmon wrote: ↑
2 years ago
Barbara Bain forever!!!
HA! Me too! Space 1999

Are you kidding me? Catherine Schell as Maya the Metamorph for the win! (not to get too much off topic)

Posted: **Tue Sep 19, 2023 7:19 pm**

shevek wrote: ↑
2 years ago

Mr. X wrote: ↑
2 years ago

tmon wrote: ↑
2 years ago
Barbara Bain forever!!!
HA! Me too! Space 1999
Are you kidding me? Catherine Schell as Maya the Metamorph for the win! (not to get too much off topic)

Oh i liked her too

Posted: **Tue Sep 19, 2023 11:21 pm**

Social media these days have the tendency to blow things out of proportion, such that a random comment here and there is suddenly interpreted as a "backlash". Consequently, big producers seem to be consciously trying to avoid as much of said "backlash" as possible resulting to the seeming dearth of fetish material in mainstream TV shows and movies (as compared to possibly the 60s to 80s).

In any case, I just recently found this interesting response from Lynda Carter herself when there was a "backlash" regarding the choice of Wonder Woman as UN Honorary Ambassador for the Empowerment of Women and Girls, so perhaps there is hope for reason just yet:

In a recent interview, Carter issued a no-holds-barred response to the controversy. She began by defending the size of Wonder Woman's breasts. "Well, excuse me, women have breasts!" the 65-year-old actress/jazz singer exclaimed to The Daily Telegraph. "Superman has got a big pouch in his crotch, so does Spider-Man and Green Lantern and their muscles are bulging — no one has a problem with that If they have a problem with a female who is strong, they're missing the entire point; it's the ultimate sexism to say because she has big breasts and a costume on, that is what you think represents her and who she is. Women do have breasts and women can defend themselves and fight back. Wonder Woman is about telling the truth."

Posted: **Wed Sep 20, 2023 12:48 am**

shevek wrote: ↑
2 years ago
We're not 'butterflies', Damien - we are an *entire privileged generation*. Or two (boomers + GenX). Literally millions of us witnessed the Golden Age of this stuff the first time around, thousands of us developed a fetish because of it, and now, hundreds of us are on a couple of forums. [Note: this might be different for other parts of the world which are not the West, such as in Asia, where superheroine fetish content peaked a generation later. So their average audience member is a bit younger.

Ironically, you prove my point

I have never liked, nor will continue to make room for - those whom use a “hive mind” method of argument. You are an individual and you cannot speak as a “we the people”.

You are a singular member of a generation, not the voice of it.

It’s a cheap way to try to win an argument by implying an army stands behind you and your point of view just to reinforce that somehow your opinion matters more than others, in this context - arguing against generational divides.

I know plenty of women in their 20s who own Barbarella. I only know a handful of women in their 30s/40s who even know of it. But that doesn’t mean I know what “all” women want, or think, or consume, or like.

Plenty of young people today are choosing analog technologies in trade for digital counterparts when it comes to thinks like Polaroid film for cameras. Sydney Sweetney (a young starlet) is actually trying to make a reboot of Barbarella as we speak.

Most people who buy my films never comment in the forums of the threads where people discuss Superheroine content. I can promise you a fraction of the people who buy my films have ever made an online appearance either here or on heroinemovies

The silent majority is bigger than the talking heads you find in these forums.

So - I think it’s rather short sighted to point towards these community boards as evidence that “the old generation gets it”. Or that older people don’t like porn, or that younger people like porn more than older people. Or that older people appreciate things more than youngsters do.

Posted: **Wed Sep 20, 2023 3:53 am**

Is superheroine fetish genre dying?

May just be experiencing a lull.

Until AI gets to where anyone can create a 30 to 60 minute 4K HD fetish TV show of their dreams with a TV tagline prompt.

Posted: **Wed Sep 20, 2023 9:57 am**

brdiy wrote: ↑
2 years ago
Social media these days have the tendency to blow things out of proportion, such that a random comment here and there is suddenly interpreted as a "backlash". Consequently, big producers seem to be consciously trying to avoid as much of said "backlash" as possible resulting to the seeming dearth of fetish material in mainstream TV shows and movies (as compared to possibly the 60s to 80s).

In any case, I just recently found this interesting response from Lynda Carter herself when there was a "backlash" regarding the choice of Wonder Woman as UN Honorary Ambassador for the Empowerment of Women and Girls, so perhaps there is hope for reason just yet:

In a recent interview, Carter issued a no-holds-barred response to the controversy. She began by defending the size of Wonder Woman's breasts. "Well, excuse me, women have breasts!" the 65-year-old actress/jazz singer exclaimed to The Daily Telegraph. "Superman has got a big pouch in his crotch, so does Spider-Man and Green Lantern and their muscles are bulging — no one has a problem with that If they have a problem with a female who is strong, they're missing the entire point; it's the ultimate sexism to say because she has big breasts and a costume on, that is what you think represents her and who she is. Women do have breasts and women can defend themselves and fight back. Wonder Woman is about telling the truth."

A random comment or two is never a "backlash". That's why someone like Bill Willingham, who turned his entire Fables oeuvre into public domain as a protest against DC's terrible business practices and blatant political leanings, will be fine. Because three or four people that nobody has heard of complained about him on Twitter.

But even when there are, say, a few hundred comments, unfortunately these days that is sometimes considered enough to be an "outrage" and enough fuel for a corporation or organization to backpedal or cancel. The real statistical farce is cases like that, because think about that - first of all, these protestors are 1) mostly anonymous, 2) not consumers of the product in question, and 3) still only a tiny tiny minority of any possible market.

If you have a few hundred negative comments on a neighborhood pizza parlor's Yelp (or about a particular superheroine fetish producer, to make the problem relevant and closer to home) that's a problem, because of the proportionate size of the customer base. However, if a tiny vocal minority screams bloody murder about a product or service that millions of people are using or watching without incident, that yammering should be ignored. Always and always.

This, however, is NOT relevant to the Lynda Carter situation, because we're talking about the United Nations, an organization representing the nations of almost everyone on Earth. What that situation does is show the dangers of "intersectionality": the idea that just because you think you're marginalized and oppressed that you have enough things deeply in common with some other groups whom you also consider marginalized and oppressed to form a common cause. However, in this case it worked: a handful of Western third-wave feminists yammering about objectification formed common cause with countries containing over a billion people who firmly believe that Wonder Woman's sexy outfit and Western philosophical mission is out of bounds for their religion and that the current actress playing Wonder Woman was out of bounds for their politics.

By far, it was the Muslim countries who crushed the Wonder Woman campaign from UN for two reasons: 1) haram and 2) Israel. And they represent a huge amount of people. So that was a *real* backlash, not a tiny imagined one.

Posted: **Wed Sep 20, 2023 10:26 am**

SHL wrote: ↑
2 years ago

shevek wrote: ↑
2 years ago
We're not 'butterflies', Damien - we are an *entire privileged generation*. Or two (boomers + GenX). Literally millions of us witnessed the Golden Age of this stuff the first time around, thousands of us developed a fetish because of it, and now, hundreds of us are on a couple of forums. [Note: this might be different for other parts of the world which are not the West, such as in Asia, where superheroine fetish content peaked a generation later. So their average audience member is a bit younger.
Ironically, you prove my point

I have never liked, nor will continue to make room for - those whom use a “hive mind” method of argument. You are an individual and you cannot speak as a “we the people”.

You are a singular member of a generation, not the voice of it.

It’s a cheap way to try to win an argument by implying an army stands behind you and your point of view just to reinforce that somehow your opinion matters more than others, in this context - arguing against generational divides.

I know plenty of women in their 20s who own Barbarella. I only know a handful of women in their 30s/40s who even know of it. But that doesn’t mean I know what “all” women want, or think, or consume, or like.

Plenty of young people today are choosing analog technologies in trade for digital counterparts when it comes to thinks like Polaroid film for cameras. Sydney Sweetney (a young starlet) is actually trying to make a reboot of Barbarella as we speak.

Most people who buy my films never comment in the forums of the threads where people discuss Superheroine content. I can promise you a fraction of the people who buy my films have ever made an online appearance either here or on heroinemovies

The silent majority is bigger than the talking heads you find in these forums.

So - I think it’s rather short sighted to point towards these community boards as evidence that “the old generation gets it”. Or that older people don’t like porn, or that younger people like porn more than older people. Or that older people appreciate things more than youngsters do.

I did not "point towards these community boards". I rarely if ever speak in "hive mind" terms, except when it comes to political ideology.

I used statistics to justify my arguments, not "standing behind an army". It's simple - millions watched fetish-heavy superheroine content in the 70s, 80s and 90s. Thousands developed the fetish, and hundreds are on some discussion boards.
I fully admitted that there is a 'silent majority' that is not on these boards but may still be into the fetish, read what I said again: THOUSANDS.
Most of them are not bold enough to discuss it public - and that's understandable - I wasn't either until I found this forum.
It's great that you have that unsung, unheralded customer base - to a certain smaller extent, I do as well, and my crowd is PG-13.

Barbarella is a fun example, but it doesn't prove your point. That property has been resurrected by Dynamite Comics and written into some great sexy stories by based sci-fi writer Sarah Hoyt. So of course it's being advocated now for film & TV just like Red Sonja is. Nick Barrucci is savvy and wants to make money. Sydney is not just a starlet, she is super-hot and has been in a bunch of very popular TV shows amongst the young set, and is about to portray Julia Carpenter Spider-Woman (OMG the potential hotness of that costume) in a Marvel movie. So of course she is an ideal actress for Dynamite to advocate Barbarella with. (I'm surprised nobody's made a thread about the Madame Web movie yet, or did I miss it?)

Yes, I am aware that a bunch of young people are going to back to analog. I live in a hipster zone, shop at hipster record store, involve myself in hipster scenes. That is a sizeable number of people, yes, but it is nowhere near the majority of young people. In fact, it is a relatively small percentage. The number of young people who went back to Polaroids is similar or less when compared to the number of young people who bought a record player at Target. Maybe it's a few million out of a hundred million. It's not a majority by any means, especially given that these hipster leanings are a lot less common amongst POC cultures which are making up an increasing share of that generation, and then also add up all the rest of the young people around the world: teens in Dubai and Mumbai are not going back to Polaroids.

I've already said, I live in the hipster milieu of Pittsburgh, but the vast majority of Pittsburgh is anything but hip, and so I'm easily able to move around outside of mere intelligentsia. You, however, live in Los Angeles and operate sometimes in Portland and Chicago, right? Much larger hipster populations there, and so of course, a bunch of girls you know (such as your new acquaintance, Alice) are into the retro-hipness of Barbarella. Does the mainstream culture really want Barbarella now to look as sexy as she did back then, without cancellation or complaint? That's another matter entirely.

Anyway, I'm not pretending to stand behind an army any more than you are, I would hope. I'm merely spotting statistical trends amongst the generations - and they DO exist, sometimes with surprising results. Remember, they found that that average viewer of a CW show was about 58, which is two years older than even Fox. Everything collapsed right around the time that the CW suddenly realized their audience was NOT primarily the one they had been targeting. The average listener of an independently supported public or NPR station probably averages about 50, even if the station makes an effort to play brand (read: bland) new musical groups. Look behind your presumptions and see numbers everywhere. The world makes more sense with them.

Posted: **Wed Sep 20, 2023 8:17 pm**

shevek wrote: ↑
2 years ago

A random comment or two is never a "backlash". That's why someone like Bill Willingham, who turned his entire Fables oeuvre into public domain as a protest against DC's terrible business practices and blatant political leanings, will be fine. Because three or four people that nobody has heard of complained about him on Twitter.

As per usual, you are a liar.

Bill Willingham said zilch about "DC's blatant political leanings."

'Blatant political leanings.' or 'political leanings' or 'leanings' had absolute zilch to do with 'why' Bill is trying to make Fables public domain.

Feel free to search his own 'what I did and why' blog post for words 'blatant,' 'political' and especially 'leanings.'

Willingham Sends Fables Into the Public Domain
Here, below, is the press release I sent out today to explain what I did and why.
by Bill Willingham
Sep 14, 2023

More interesting reading from Bill...

More About Fables in the Public Domain
In which I interview myself in order to expand on a few things revealed in yesterday's post.
by Bill Willingham
Sep 14, 2023

Posted: **Thu Sep 21, 2023 9:22 am**

theScribbler wrote: ↑
2 years ago

shevek wrote: ↑
2 years ago

A random comment or two is never a "backlash". That's why someone like Bill Willingham, who turned his entire Fables oeuvre into public domain as a protest against DC's terrible business practices and blatant political leanings, will be fine. Because three or four people that nobody has heard of complained about him on Twitter.
As per usual, you are a liar.

Bill Willingham said zilch about "DC's blatant political leanings."

Just like you to laser-focus on three little words for "accuracy". OK, then.

It's not what he said in the Substack piece - it's how he feels. How do I know? Because ten years of Twitter posts from him bear this out.
There's no question he's sick of constantly being politically attacked by industry pros since the mid-2000s, and releasing Fables also releases him from cancellation. He said in the Substack piece that he is done with Fables and moving on to original projects. So he can do whatever he wants.

[Please note: I'm not really a big fan of Fables, but I do own the volumes of 'Fairest', a Fables spinoff. I'm more a supporter of Willingham
because of his 1980s superhero series Elementals, which was one of my favorite books growing up, and both Morningstar and Fathom were
super hot in it.]

You know what? If you doubt that he has a political issue with comics pros, I've got a great idea: YOU CAN ASK BILL WILLINGHAM YOURSELF!
He's going to be live on POPXP talking with Billy Tucci and Nile Scala at 9 pm EST tonight (9/21). TONIGHT!
You know that Billy Tucci (who is a conservative himself) will be asking Bill Willingham some questions regarding politics, so it's bound to come up.
I usually moderate the chat on that channel, and it's always fun, but I won't be there tonight because I have an event I have to run.
But if you're really interested in what Bill thinks in a political sense about current DC, simply ask him in the chat tonight!

(I wish I could be there to see you post. That would be rich! But hey, I'll watch it in the next few days on the replay. So if you ask him a question,
just put the word 'Scribbler' in your chat post, so I know it's you!)

And before you do, please take the time to watch the 9-minute video on Critical Blast (another channel for which I moderate sometimes)
about the entire factual case regarding Stephanie Cooke embezzling more than $10,000 from Bill Willingham's account and fleeing to Canada
to avoid prosecution. You really have to wonder why he hired her in the first place - obviously he thought a lot better of her initially than she did of him.

Posted: **Thu Sep 21, 2023 8:22 pm**

shevek wrote: ↑
2 years ago

theScribbler wrote: ↑
2 years ago

shevek wrote: ↑
2 years ago

A random comment or two is never a "backlash". That's why someone like Bill Willingham, who turned his entire Fables oeuvre into public domain as a protest against DC's terrible business practices and blatant political leanings, will be fine. Because three or four people that nobody has heard of complained about him on Twitter.
As per usual, you are a liar.

Bill Willingham said zilch about "DC's blatant political leanings."

'Blatant political leanings.' or 'political leanings' or 'leanings' had absolute zilch to do with 'why' Bill is trying to make Fables public domain.

Feel free to search his own 'what I did and why' blog post for words 'blatant,' 'political' and especially 'leanings.'

Willingham Sends Fables Into the Public Domain
Here, below, is the press release I sent out today to explain what I did and why.
by Bill Willingham
Sep 14, 2023

More interesting reading from Bill...

More About Fables in the Public Domain
In which I interview myself in order to expand on a few things revealed in yesterday's post.
by Bill Willingham
Sep 14, 2023

Just like you to laser-focus on three little words for "accuracy". OK, then.

Yep, those three words are a lie. A lie you tried to put in the mouth of Bill (but we caught you). shevek appending his agenda onto someone else. Bill does not exist for you to make stuff up about.

And I call epic fail on your attempt to shrink out of your blatant lie.

shevek wrote: ↑
2 years ago
It's not what he said in the Substack piece -

Exactly, It's not what he said in his blog post .

shevek wrote: ↑
2 years ago
it's how he feels. How do I know?

Bullshit.

And you know nothing. Read Bill's blog post.
Don't make shit up you don't know and he didn't say.

shevek wrote: ↑
2 years ago
Because ten years of Twitter posts from him bear this out.

Bullshit. But go on, prove me wrong...

'ten years of Twitter posts?' OK, show us one post from each of the ten years that proves your lie, posts where Bill 'protest[s]' about DC's 'blatant political leanings.'

Here I'll save you some typing...

1. in 2014:

2. in 2015:

3. in 2016:

4. in 2017:

5. in 2018:

6. in 2019:

7. in 2020:

8. in 2021:

9. in 2022:

10. in 2023:

shevek wrote: ↑
2 years ago
There's no question he's sick of constantly being politically attacked by industry pros since the mid-2000s, and releasing Fables also releases him from cancellation.

Absolutely there's a question with anything you say. But...

What's this industry pros deviation? What industry pros? Why you bringing this up? Are you talking about DC industry pros? deviate deviate deviate, is the shevek way...

Your lie is specifically attributing to BIll your own agenda of DC's 'blatant political leanings.' Which is a false attribution.

But go ahead, show us DC industry pros constantly attacking Bill. We need to know who these industry pros are!

Not that Bill thought your industry pros deviation important at all to include in his blog post as to the 'why' of things with Fables.

shevek wrote: ↑
2 years ago
He said in the Substack piece that he is done with Fables...

What he wrote was 'It’s time to let it go' referring to Fables. Altho this has nothing to do with shevek lie attributing to Bill DC's 'blatant political leanings' so why are you wasting peoples time. Try as you might, your feeble deviations don't make your lies go away. Not this one. Not prior ones. Not future ones.

shevek wrote: ↑
2 years ago
...and moving on to original projects. So he can do whatever he wants.

Quote please. Where did he write 'moving on to original projects?' or similar in the blog post. Or did you make this up? I couldn't find it. Maybe it's not from his blog post?

Curious to me why you can't just quote Bill directly.
Curious to me why you keep trying to deviate from DC's 'blatant political leanings' lie of yours.

shevek wrote: ↑
2 years ago

[the above tweet doesn't show for me in the forum, so I made a screen cap -Scribbler]

meager non proof from shevek = Bill's tweet & no context.png (98.97 KiB) Viewed 56584 times

You know what? If you doubt that he has a political issue with comics pros, I've got a great idea: YOU CAN ASK BILL WILLINGHAM YOURSELF!...blah blah blah....

I didn't say anything about comics pros. You lying about me now. I'm not your strawman. Eff off.

What I posted about is your lie attributing to Bill: DC's 'blatant political leanings.

Second, I didn't say I doubt or don't doubt, cause I didn't say anything about comics pros.

What I posted about is your lie attributing to Bill: DC's 'blatant political leanings.

Why are you branching off into bullcrap? You lied about why he's trying to make Fables public domain. His own blog post proves it. It's you that had to insert your lying agenda into this thread as per usual, and attribute it to Bill. Which is a low that is common in your posts. As per shevek usual, all the time, in any post shevek makes where shevek sees opportunity to insert his politics. Always with the intersectionalism no one here cares about. Always with shevek politics that no one cares about. Always always always.

But no one has time to post about all your lies. Like Bill talked about not being able to afford to sue DC in terms of money and years out of his life. I don't have time to rebut all your many lies. So yesterday and today I picked this one. Are you glad I did? Are you glad I don't do all of them? I don't think the forum database has hard drive space for if I or others would point out all your political propaganda lies each and every time.

So, I've exposed your flat out, indisputable, blatant shevek propaganda lie here for what it is...

shevek wrote: ↑
2 years ago
That's why someone like Bill Willingham, who turned his entire Fables oeuvre into public domain as a protest against DC's terrible business practices and blatant political leanings,...

and this last bit is your agenda crap 'blatant political leaning' that is a blatant lie when you attribute it too Bill.

Bill is trying to put Fables into the public domain (good luck with that) because he does not like DC's business practices. It is shevek, not BIll, who wants to interject shevek politics into it, ergo 'protest against DC's' 'blatant political leanings, Yep, that's shevek's bit, agenda, not Bill's.

That's all there is to it. Your lie is exposed. Your method is exposed. Bill is not your strawman to lie about. Nor is anyone else. LIke Sasha Calle.

(I can hear Ponderosa yelling across the room "Wait! What's wrong with DC? All that I am I owe to DC! If not for DC, I wouldn't exist as a pale, meh imitation!")

Or prove me wrong and complete the list challenge above.

shevek wrote: ↑
2 years ago
Ten years of Twitter posts from him bear this out.

Let's have the list. Twitter posts from Bill protesting about DC's blatant political leanings. And don't make it all up. Have at it.

Posted: **Fri Sep 22, 2023 1:50 am**

theScribbler wrote: ↑
2 years ago

What's this industry pros deviation? What industry pros? Why you bringing this up? Are you talking about DC industry pros? deviate deviate deviate, is the shevek way...

Or prove me wrong and complete the list challenge above.

shevek wrote: ↑
2 years ago
Ten years of Twitter posts from him bear this out.
Let's have the list. Twitter posts from Bill protesting about DC's blatant political leanings. And don't make it all up. Have at it.

There's no "deviation". "DC Comics" and "industry pros" are the same thing. Everyone who works for DC Comics is an industry pro,
or a "comics pro". It's a shorthand way of talking about the Twitter mob that is used quite often on the Youtube channels.

And why, exactly, do I have to find ten years' worth of examples of comics pros attacking Bill Willingham?
In her 2021 hit piece in ComicsBeat, Heidi McDonald herself proclaimed that he was already problematic back in 2009.
That's ten years right there!

I'm not going to take your bait. I watched the first hour of the Bill Willingham interview on POPXP.

When he talks about the revolving door of editors at DC, he and Nile Scala mention about 'editors coming in who haven't read any comics or know anything about the legacy of the comics. They don't want to know. The editors are coming in with marching orders having absolutely no experience in the storytelling medium of comic books."

Billy then says "It's almost this blatant disregard for what came before. They openly say they want to change comics." And Willingham responds. "You're right. Contempt for the properties, contempt for the medium." Don't tell me that you're too dense to know what this is all code for!

So, of course, he's not going to be happy about the way DC has leaned for the past few years. And that's *in addition* to the slipshod manner in which they treat creators in a business sense. There can be more than one motivation for doing something.

The clincher really begins around 1:50:00 on that video. When Billy talks about angry comics pros on Twitter defending huge megacorpprations instead of getting behind indie creators, Willingham responds, "You're standing up for the dead. You're done, your time is over. The folks like what you're [Billy Tucci] doing, what EVS is doing, all these hot young Turks, they're crowdfunding, they're streaming, God bless all of you, what a great time. I'm glad I saw it, and maybe I'll get in on a little bit of it. I'm just tickled that it's happening."

So there you go. A very clear declaration.

I'm done with your frankly unhinged attacks, and I'm on to the much more productive world of Comicons!

Posted: **Sat Sep 23, 2023 5:01 am**

: stevie-nicks-comic.jpg (77.14 KiB) Viewed 56394 times

Now here you go again
You lie, your wasted lyin'
Well, who am I to point it out?
It's only right that people
Laugh at a clown so foolish
But listen carefully
To the sound
Of your lying-ness...

Like your brain fails drive you mad
In the dumbness of bizarro land
Say why you so sad and why you so lost
Yeah why you so sad and so so lost

Oh, Blunders always happen when insaning
shevek always fails, Liar derailing
See Women flee shevek yeah they will go
Lies exposed, he can't come clean, we know
We all know

shevek wrote: ↑
2 years ago
The clincher really begins around 1:50:00 on that video. When Billy talks about angry comics pros on Twitter...

Another shevek post, another pack of lies

The epitome of BS.

And right off the bat another lie. The clincher at that time in video, Billy didn't talk about angry comics pros on twitter. Billy didn't say 'angry comics pros.'

Billy did say "some people..." Is that the same? No it isn't.

And nothing in your entire post above disproves that this was, and still is, a lie...

shevek wrote: ↑
2 years ago
That's why someone like Bill Willingham, who turned his entire Fables oeuvre into public domain as a protest against DC's terrible business practices and blatant political leanings,...

A big, fat, shevek personal agenda lie.

All you had to do to have it be true was to leave out four words:
'and blatant political leanings.'

But you couldn't stomach that. shevek alt-right politics agenda purposes would not be served if you couldn't inject your political bias. Had to do it.

Four words that Bill didn't say, didn't allude to, wasn't one of the reasons Bill explained in his blog post on the subject.

But four words that shevek wanted to so desperately say. At any opportunity. Weird.

Symptoms of a chronic case of shevek agenda disease, intentional sabotage, subterfuge-itis. Symptoms of alt-right bizarroland unreality, spin, propaganda. Can't let Bill W. just be Bill, he must be sheveked!

Summary of Bill's blogpost:

Bill Willingham creator of Fables, declared on September 15, 2023, that Fables and related content are now in the public domain. This ensures universal accessibility, a departure from sole ownership.

1. Practicality and Asymmetric Warfare: Disagreements with DC Comics over contract interpretation led Willingham to choose a different path. He couldn't afford a legal battle, opting to place the property in the public domain to counter what he saw as unfavorable management.

2. Philosophical Views on Copyright Laws: Willingham advocates a radical copyright reform, suggesting a 20-year creator ownership before public domain. He applied this principle to Fables after about twenty years of ownership.

3. DC Comics Actions and Violations: Willingham cited several instances where DC Comics violated agreements, including attempts to categorize Fables as a work for hire during contract negotiations and disputes regarding ownership. Additionally, he accused DC Comics of failing to preserve the integrity and value of the intellectual property. These actions by DC Comics prompted Willingham to take this significant step.

4. Confidence in the Decision and Future Usage: Willingham expressed confidence in this move, emphasizing that he gave DC Comics ample opportunities to address concerns. He isn't worried about their response.

In summary, Bill Willingham placed Fables in the public domain due to practicality, a belief in copyright reform, dissatisfaction with DC Comics' actions, and to ensure broader accessibility for all.

That's Bill for ya. Based on longer blog post that he wrote,

Nothing shevek in it. shevek so disappointed

More crap...

shevek wrote: ↑
2 years ago
There's no "deviation". "DC Comics" and "industry pros" are the same thing. Everyone who works for DC Comics is an industry pro,
or a "comics pro". It's a shorthand way of talking about the Twitter mob that is used quite often on the Youtube channels.

So you're saying if any forum member were to write "DC Comics" they'd be saying "Twitter mob?" How is that shorthand? How is 10 letters shorthand for 8 letters? If forum member writes "industry pros" they really mean to shorthand "Twitter mob" with 12 letters instead of 8? "Comic pro" 9 letters also shorthand?

What planet do you live on?

Yeah, I'm gonna have to completely discount your bizarro statement about shorthand for twitter mob. Youtube channels you watch must be pretty weird. Do they have their own dictionary? Is it online?

"DC Comics" and "industry pros" are the same thing. You know anyone reading that thinks you're insane. And rightly so. Do you think you're fooling any one with clown paragraphs of nonsense?

So Everyone who works for DC is an industry pro? Does this include customer service, secretaries and assistants, janitors, window washers, maintenance crew? Are you for real? You don't seem like you're for real?

shevek wrote: ↑
2 years ago
And why, exactly, do I have to find ten years' worth of examples of comics pros attacking Bill Willingham?

That's not what I asked for. I said nothing about examples of comics pros attacking Bill. You're trying your diversion crap again and so bad at it.

I said "Bill Willingham said zilch about "DC's blatant political leanings."

You whined sadly "It's not what he said in the Substack piece - it's how he feels. How do I know? Because ten years of Twitter posts from him bear this out."

So I asked for list of 10 tweets, one per year, that prove your bullshit statement that Bill feels like you do about supposed "DC's blatant political leanings."

That wouldn't be proved by anyone (comic pro, not comic pro, you, your left toe) attacking him. That would require tweets from Bill himself expressing he's anti "DC's blatant political leanings"

Other people attacking Bill on twitter? Not what I asked for. Your diversion tactic has failed. Again. You need to get off whatever is screwing with your brain.

For rest of this post, I'm leaving most from your nonsense post alone, but I draw exception to this...

shevek wrote: ↑
2 years ago
Billy then says "It's almost this blatant disregard for what came before. They openly say they want to change comics." And Willingham responds. "You're right. Contempt for the properties, contempt for the medium." Don't tell me that you're too dense to know what this is all code for!

Apparently it's code for your densevek alt-right colored glasses that sees codes that aren't ever there.

What's dense is you posting Tucci and Willingham curmudgeon views? I know, old people don't like things to change.

Oh no! They want to change things! They must not do this! Art must be drawn and english must be written as it was in comics when I first read comics as a kid!? What are these new young whippersnappers up to!? I watched Wonder Woman on a CRT TV and that's the way it should be now! LCD TV's give me a break!

[Note: above is not what they actually said. This is me mocking them. Most people would get that right off. shevek wouldn't, so I have to write this explainer! ]

Contempt for medium!? Does he want to go back to newsprint?

Contempt for properties? So Bill's Fables, his reimagining of classic fairy tales and folklore, is not contempt for properties? I would agree with that, it's not contempt. However, someone more traditionalist, curmudgeon, can't stand change, might say that it is.

Like the two curmudgeons in your quotes above. Do they even listen to themselves?

Altho quotes from you are lightyears away from anything close to reliable. I should wait for the transcript of youtube video.

And to the real topic at hand.

Is this superheroine fetish genre dying?

Sure is. But it still has a while to go. I don't know who's gonna make the next best new superheroine fetish movie or movies that everyone will be talking about, but if or when someone does that might spark a bit of an uptick. But if it were just Hburgh, well then genre's dead. But it's not just Hburgh, so there's hope! and wonder! and way hotter babes!

<- No way! I'm centuries old. I'm not dying!

.

Posted: **Sat Sep 23, 2023 6:37 am**

theScribbler wrote: ↑
2 years ago
The clincher at that time in video, Billy didn't talk about angry comics pros on twitter. Billy didn't say 'angry comics pros.'

Billy did say "some people..." Is that the same? No it isn't.

All you had to do to have it be true was to leave out four words:
'and blatant political leanings.'

So you're saying if any forum member were to write "DC Comics" they'd be saying "Twitter mob?"

Youtube channels you watch must be pretty weird. Do they have their own dictionary? Is it online?

"DC Comics" and "industry pros" are the same thing.
So Everyone who works for DC is an industry pro? Does this include customer service, secretaries and assistants, janitors, window washers, maintenance crew? Are you for real? You don't seem like you're for real?

Going to answer briefly so I can go back to more productive things, and you can compose another obsessive ultra-literalist rant in response,
where you keep harping on four words. Thank God you didn't do that when JFK said "Ich bin ein Berliner" or Lee Harvey Oswald would have assassinated a Jelly Donut.

Yes, "some people" is Billy Tucci's polite way of referring to those on Twitter (and elsewhere) who have been attacking Willingham and writing hit-pieces against him. Yes, it is the same, and it is *understood* within the context of the people watching the channel, who, unlike yourself, do *not* need a dictionary to figure out the meaning.

No, I didn't say DC Comics equals Twitter mob. I said that pretty much anyone at DC Comics - and by 'anyone' it's clear to any sane human being that I meant *creatives* (writer, artists & editors) not janitors and window washers - is actively against Willingham. Or, they fall silent and unable to defend him at the slightest discomfort.

This includes Jim Lee, who just happens to be the headliner at the Con we're vending at this weekend. In the POPXP video, Willingham explains why: Lee promised Willingham by phone call that he would be present at a Zoom meeting to defend him in his fight against the DC brass, but when push came to shove, Lee did not show up, and in fact, was told by the DC brass *not* to be there.

So yes, I'm for real. Willingham said that this happened at the Zoom meeting where he was told to basically lump it with regards to the enforcement of his contract. So, I believe him. And yes, there was financial acrimony involved in his split from DC and his decision to put Fables in public domain, and a strong belief in the power of copyright. But there was also an ideological component.

Whether you choose to believe that is one thing. Whether you compose obsessive rants against me with power-point presentations and continuous usage of the word "liar" is another. Everyone except yourself apparently understands the difference.

Onward.

Posted: **Sat Sep 23, 2023 10:36 am**

Does every discussion on these forums have to turn into a pointless, inane political argument?

Posted: **Sat Sep 23, 2023 12:32 pm**

Mommy, Daddy... stop fighting!!

The Ultimate Superheroines Forum

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