The Fundamental Question

General discussions about superheroines!
sneakly
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Re: The Fundamental Question

Post by sneakly »

Not an expert, but my guess it would be a dominance/submission thing. You are empowered when you win. And when you win you get to bang them... it might also be the desire to bang women totally out of your league... Yeah, banging the might be a turn on also.

Just a guess, though...
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Re: The Fundamental Question

Post by tallyho »

Not every one is here to see a loss. I prefer a to and fro battle where, after setbacks, the heroine wins through. Might suffer on the way but gets there in the end.
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Re: The Fundamental Question

Post by bushwackerbob »

I think there is also something primal in us that enjoys seeing the mighty fall, whether that be celebrities, politicians, pro athletes, reality stars, wealthy individuals, etc. Seeing superheroines getting taken down I think is an extension of that dynamic. For me, it's almost like a scale, where you see the heroine in a film or story in that superheroine persona, in that powerful superheroine pose, that is a 10 on the scale, and I enjoy seeing her get defeated and humiliated and that number slides ever so slowly down to 1 where we see total defeat and humiliation and it is glorious. Great question VictorBlack, welcome to the forum!
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Re: The Fundamental Question

Post by Bert »

That's a tough question to get a definitive answer to. I think people can get here from different places. For example, there are women on the forum who share this fetish. They may be coming at it from completely different angles. Personally, I was 8 or 9 years old when I saw a comic book cover depicting a superheroine in peril. It awakened this feeling in me. A feeling I couldn't ignore. I don't know where it comes from. maybe it's innate. Maybe it's society imposing rules about gender dynamics and this is an escape from that. Maybe it starts as a desire to save the "damsel in distress" and morphs from that. I've always assumed this is just the way I am, but maybe there's some underlying psychological explanation.

In the end, there are two big takeaways for me. First, I desperately hope that my participation here never, ever provides any license for someone to act on these fantasies in real life and harm another person. I struggle with that quite a bit.

And secondly, it's a relief to find others who share this fetish, and to realize that there is a community of us who can share thoughts. I've met a few awesome people here who I enjoy corresponding with.
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Re: The Fundamental Question

Post by bushwackerbob »

Bert wrote: 10 months ago That's a tough question to get a definitive answer to. I think people can get here from different places. For example, there are women on the forum who share this fetish. They may be coming at it from completely different angles. Personally, I was 8 or 9 years old when I saw a comic book cover depicting a superheroine in peril. It awakened this feeling in me. A feeling I couldn't ignore. I don't know where it comes from. maybe it's innate. Maybe it's society imposing rules about gender dynamics and this is an escape from that. Maybe it starts as a desire to save the "damsel in distress" and morphs from that. I've always assumed this is just the way I am, but maybe there's some underlying psychological explanation.

In the end, there are two big takeaways for me. First, I desperately hope that my participation here never, ever provides any license for someone to act on these fantasies in real life and harm another person. I struggle with that quite a bit.

And secondly, it's a relief to find others who share this fetish, and to realize that there is a community of us who can share thoughts. I've met a few awesome people here who I enjoy corresponding with.
Well said Bert, I wish I could like your post. I think this countercultural interest that we have in SHP is definitely in response to what society rightfully expects us to how to comport ourselves in the real world. In a sense, we get to have it both ways, we have these vivid, politically incorrect, naughty, real world despicable fantasies, while in the real world we behave and live like normal, decent, well adjusted human beings. Boy, we're fooling them huh! LOL! I As to your theory that our fetish may have some underlying psychological explanation, if that is indeed true, then I think that the SHP genre serves as a valuable outlet for those thoughts and feelings.
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Re: The Fundamental Question

Post by Bert »

bushwackerbob wrote: 10 months ago Boy, we're fooling them huh! LOL!
I get that you're kidding, but in the real world I AM them. Violence, particularly against women, truly sickens me. That's the weird dichotomy of this fetish. And I think that's why it particularly applies to superheroines - they aren't real.

The idea of a powerful woman, with the given understanding that women are on average less physically powerful than men and more likely to be sexually taken advantage of, donning a costume and putting herself in harm's way to help people - that is incredibly compelling. Women are not culturally known as sexual predators. That is men's domain. A female hero must fight crime like her male counterparts, but she faces potential outcomes that they don't. So the investment in crimefighting is higher. That raises the stakes for readers, or viewers. Even if nothing ever happens, the potential is always under the surface waiting to manifest.
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Re: The Fundamental Question

Post by Lurkndog »

For me it particularly stems from watching the Lynda Carter Wonder Woman TV show as a teenager. Particularly the CBS years, where it seemed that Wonder Woman completely outclassed the relatively ordinary villains she was facing. Lots of hapless henchmen getting tossed across the room. Wonder Woman seemed to be slumming it, and often acted quite superior, and while I found Lynda Carter tremendously appealing in the role, I kinda wanted to see WW run into someone who could take her down a peg or two.

I also found the image of an unconscious Wonder Woman/Diana Prince really sexy, and was a bit annoyed that she was rarely knocked out in the later years.

As I grew older, I also began to see the flaws in the storytelling in the later seasons, such as the fact that the villains often seemed to be unaware that Wonder Woman even existed, even though every kid in the world recognized her on sight.

This led to time spent daydreaming up various alternate storylines and scenarios.
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Re: The Fundamental Question

Post by batgirl1969 »

my love of all this goes back to when I was 16 and first ventured into cosplay to go along with my older step brother...theme just happened to be 1960's Batman and I soon found out why, his love for Batgirl peril. in my journey to become Batgirl, I discovered all the sexual overtones to her captures and then stumbled on The Adventures of O-girl trapped in time and when I put 2 and 2 together it awakened the lesbian lust in my miind so yes this was a psycological journey for me to become who I am and what I love today. Seeing myself as the heroune captured was how it all started then now as I approach 30 I find I have become more the Catwoman/Batwoman than the Batgirl....the power of a mind blowing multiple orgasm while reading and viewing all of those vids and images really hammered it home, literally!! then my first cosplay roleplay at Dragoncon wss the cherry on top that finished the process...a well applied hogtie a ballgag and a blidfold and I have not missed a dragoncon since!!!!
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Re: The Fundamental Question

Post by ltrltr »

Powerful women cut down. Plus they look so good when they squirm.
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Re: The Fundamental Question

Post by WarGriffin »

I appreciate this question, and all of the responses. I have wrestled with this question (in various forms) a lot over the years, and it provides interesting context to hear other people's stories. Clearly, there are multiple ways to get here, and even what "here" is varies among SHIP fans. I came to my interest in superheroines in combat indirectly after discovering at a very young age (somewhere between 6 and 8, I think) that I had a fascination with female belly punching. Where that interest came from, I will never know. It feels innate to me, but I'll leave that discussion for another place. But fairly quickly after my belly punching interest emerged, I discovered that comic books were one of the few places where this kind of action was depicted, because superheroines and villainesses often were shown in major super-powered fistfights right alongside the male heroes and villains. I had never been a comic book fan in general, but I started seeking out comic books out of this one narrow interest in belly punching. Over time, though, as I continued focusing on comics, my belly punching interest became fused with a broader SHIP fetish.

One key aspect of that fusion for me relates back to what Bert and VictorBlack were discussing regarding the fantasy vs reality divide. I, too, find actual violence against women utterly abhorrent and sickening. My fantasy only applies to the extent that the depiction of peril that I'm viewing truly seem *fanciful* to me. Even if I know something is fake, if it looks or feels too realistic to me, I can pivot to nausea in an instant. So the superheroine genre had a natural appeal for me, because the whole context is so clearly unreal that it was easier to separate my fantasy interest from my real-world DIS-interest in the peril content.

Another related element that clicked nicely for me with SHIP is the notion that, even if she's on the losing side of a fight, the superheroine is still "super"--still able to absorb blows without suffering the sort of true bodily injury that would repel me to imagine. Heroes (male and female) are always blasting each other all over the place, but in the majority of stories, everyone lives to fight another day, and no one winds up in a hospital with internal bleeding or something. Somehow, these super-beings can give and take major bodily abuse without sustaining true injury. They experience pain or superficial bruising in the moment, but not true damage (or else they have incredible regenerative powers, if you want to think of it that way). So again, my peril fantasy is able to run wild, so to speak, in the SHIP context, without straying into the repulsion I would feel at such things being done to a woman in real life when real damage would result.

Even with all of those elements in place, though, my personal SHIP interests are strongly skewed toward FF scenarios, which I know is in part an automatic (not conscious) mechanism to put even further distance between my fantasy and things that would repel me in reality. Even if the fight is anything but fair, because the superheroine is outnumbered or restrained or weakened in some way, it still just "feels" fairer to me for the superheroine only to be fighting other women.

And perhaps coming full circle, I do often imagine that the whole fight/peril scenario has mutually erotic overtones for the villainess and the superheroine, even as they're duking it out with massive blows in both directions. Both characters could be doing other things with their lives, but these are the roles they've both chosen to play, knowing that these kinds of encounters are what those choices will lead to. So it's not a difficult twist of my imagination to inject some sense of mutual enjoyment to the peril, even if it's perhaps less conscious and more repressed for the superheroine than for the villainess. In the end, in my fantasy SHIP world, neither combatant is sustaining any serious injury, and both experience some sensual satisfaction through their rough and tumble escapades.

So ... everybody wins! :)
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Re: The Fundamental Question

Post by heroinehunter »

Excellent question.
It's the fantasy aspect (and fantasy only, friends).

There is a sense of the dominance/submission aspect that is at play here - a sense of empowerment when the everyday, average mere mortal guy/girl wins against someone that is viewed 'untouchable' or 'superior' to you. There is a certain pervy excitement in regards to overpowering a woman that is above average - she's stronger and smarter than you are (and the fact that she's beautiful always helps). A superheroine is usually strong, smart, and very beautiful - not a damsel in distress. The superheroine is capable of defending herself and getting out of traps. So I agree that there is some kind of primal aspect to 'bring the superior/untouchable person down a few pegs.' What makes it more fun is now that you have the 'superior/untouchable' superheroine you can 'enjoy the spoils' of your victory. You can continue to humiliate and bring her down that scale someone else was talking about (going from 10 to a 0). As the antagonist is doing this to the protagonist, that certain pervy excitement still continues because the heroine is still strong, smart, capable and can rebound/escape at any time - so you have to continue to be on your guard (I guess you can say the adrenaline rush doesn't end with the capture) or she'll kick your butt. Badly.

I noticed my fetish when I was about 7-8 years old as well. Everyday girls play the damsel in distress in television shows and it's no big deal really. Whenever Batgirl (Yvonne Craig) or Wonder Woman (Lynda Carter) got captured, the little pimple between my legs grew to an acorn. It wasn't easy to capture these women. It took careful planning to capture them, a team of people/henchmen, special traps or devices, etc. To further my point about this dynamic, I remember watching the late Lana Clarkson (may she rest in peace) in 'Barbarian Queen.' Here is a woman that is a queen (superior title), strong (athletic form) and very beautiful. During the story, she's captured by the enemy and brought to a dungeon. Lana is bound and tormented by a small, meager, very sad, inferior mad scientist that feels that he's the one that is superior to her now and wants to 'break' her. The sight of this little, weak, ordinary guy having an strong, beautiful Amazon woman helplessly bound and tormented is ...well, I kept saying to myself, "This is really hot. I can't believe THIS little guy has THAT gorgeous woman in his dungeon." It was so hot that they made a sequel just to get Lana back on the torture rack and repeat the scenario - seriously.

call me - 'the guy that advised Tarkin to evacuate before the Death Star blew up.'
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Re: The Fundamental Question

Post by Widestance »

Heroine Hunter is right on the money.

That's why I don't like a wimpering heroine, especially early in the peril scene. Wimpering destroys the heroine's aura of superiority. Maybe they can wimper at the point of total defeat, but not before then.
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Re: The Fundamental Question

Post by SnidelyW »

I think before I actually became a sexual being something about the old Batman 66 show got to me. But once I got older and became attracted to women it changed into this.

I actually come at it not from any negative feelings towards women, but from sympathy. When a video really gets me hot, I'm also a little heartbroken for the heroine. It's delicious. In fact I sympathize with them so much that when my partner and I role-play, we take turns being the captured hero. Sometimes I "take" her, and sometimes she "takes" me. Both sides of the exchange turn me on.

I think the fact that they're superheroines means they kind of opted into this life. They're not some poor office worker getting attacked in the parking lot. They're strong and perfect, and it's sexy to see their vulnerable side. For me the fetish also includes spies, whether they're in catsuits or little black dresses. They're kind of like heroines in that regard. They opted into a life of danger.

I also just love spandex, which doesn't hurt.
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Re: The Fundamental Question

Post by tamonicus »

Sorry to be late to the party; it's taken time to assemble even these incoherent thoughts.

I agree with all said to a large degree. I enjoy seeing a smoking hot woman in gleaming spandex & boots courageously putting herself in harm's way for a greater cause. I also revel when she's hypnotized or knocked out, be it because she's overpowered or outsmarted. (I find the latter appealing because it means a shrimp like me could make someone like her helpless.) I love her valiant struggle even though she knows she's going down. I'm all for dishing out some punishment, gloating at & taunting her predicament, fondling her, and maybe forcing an orgasm. Then I want her to find a way out of her fix and prevail. The second best video end is her fighting to escape and appearing in a later video/story, implying she did get away.

And then there are things I dislike. I don't like endless beatings. I'm right there with Widestance that she must not whimper. She knew the deal when she entered the villain's lair. I also don't like her tortured or sexually violated. (That's a fine line, I know.) What I can't tolerate is her being killed: that will nix my purchase.

It's clear to me that I'm a product of the sexual fantasies dangled before me as a youth. I was born in the mid-60s and with Batman '66 reruns. I remember being mesmerized by Yvonne Craig as Batgirl but not Julie Newmar as Catwoman. Then in the mid-70s came ElectraWoman & DynaGirl and Wonder Woman, and I was on my current path. Of course, it didn't help that my parents bought me comics like this.
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I too abhor real violence against women. But this is different. It's fantasy. I call it "comic book violence". No one really gets hurt. It must have been OK because everyone's back to normal for the next story or episode, like Kenny from South Park.
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Re: The Fundamental Question

Post by Bert »

All these years later I've still never had a stronger reaction to any comic than I do to that cover. Supergirl is so powerful. Seeing her unconscious, or barely conscious, immediately makes you wonder how she was defeated. Her upturned palms and splayed out fingers make her look so helpless. The room is filled with aliens, so she has clearly been kidnapped. They are all male, and they are all staring intently at her helpless form. And the piece de resistance - she is being dragged by her long blonde hair. The depiction of that looks so right that I imagine the artist actually had a woman model the pose for him. Her cheeks are slightly flushed, her mouth is slightly parted - everything is just perfect. The big red "S", the ultimate symbol of power, is stretched across her prominent breasts, adding to the astonishment of her being defeated. Frankly I'm amazed this cover exists.
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Re: The Fundamental Question

Post by heroinehunter »

I was out in a regular supermarket store as a really young kid when I saw this on the comic book rack. I looked at it based on the cover, in which Wonder Woman is starting to break out of heavy chains as the villain is leaping out at her from a video screen (I'll try to find it). But I bought it based on the interior art and story, in which Wondy is tied to a chair and helpless against the antagonist. Not only did the 1970's Wonder Woman series got me hot for the character in bondage, but this one comic book did the trick as well.
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Love the following : 1.references that when she's bound by rope by a man she's helpless (it was the time period),2. she's bound hands, chest, legs and feet to the chair, 3. the antagonist is forcing Wondy to do something, but she resists 4.how he pulls on a fistful of hair as she's bound and yet she's still resists with the vintage "not gonna be your slave' line. 5. Wondy finally gives in when her friend is captured (but wins anyway).
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Re: The Fundamental Question

Post by bare_thighz »

I didn't know WW lost her powers when her hands were bound "by a man."

Like the last frame.
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Re: The Fundamental Question

Post by sneakly »

bare_thighz wrote: 4 months ago I didn't know WW lost her powers when her hands were bound "by a man."

Like the last frame.
The creator of WW was big into psychology (he also invented the lie detector). Her magic bracelets were, “bracelets of submission” and if they were chained together her powers were neutralized. Marston (the creator), aside from being an ardent feminist had a long term polyamorous relationship and was into the whole dominance/submission bondage thing long before the internet....
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Re: The Fundamental Question

Post by bare_thighz »

I have another comic where WW is in chains and ends up being "enslaved." Seems like a common thing for her.
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Re: The Fundamental Question

Post by tamonicus »

I have another comic where WW is in chains and ends up being "enslaved." Seems like a common thing for her.
I'm sure others can expand upon this, but here goes my understanding of this theme. Charles Moulton, who created Wonder Woman in the early 1940s, was a psychologist and inventor of the lie detector who worked in academia. It seems among his academic interests were gender studies (hence Wonder Woman) and bondage. Moulton portrayed WW as pure but can be corrupted by man and loses her powers if chained by a man.

As near as I can guess, Wonder Woman is a conglomeration of this Moulton tinkered with and maybe was turned on by. To the best of my limited knowledge, other superheroines of the 1940s either laid back & untied the superhero she supported or was easily captured and had to be rescued. WW was the first superheroine to routinely defeat men.

Now that I've started the ball rolling, I'll step aside.
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