To all Producers please use a different site than Clips4Sale: Clips4Sale is allowing Racist Porn

[GeekyPornCritic]

Despite knowing what a quagmire this is I'll just chip in here as it's a topic that's been weighing on my mind as a writer here for some time.

From what I understand this thread was kicked off over what sounds like an interracial sex scene. And also as I understand it, the scene is "rough" and the scenario was set up by having the actress in character (important) using the N word (as part of the script- important too) to trigger the male character into action. It's not my fantasy nor many others, but it's somebody's and are we not all beholden to some fantasy or other, whether it be morally good or not?

I despise the N word and no fan of racism in general but I am not blind. It exists in the real world and ends up being reflected in film, books and TV drama too. So, are script and story writers and their works "racist" because they create content that has some reality to it?Is a show like "The Wire" racist or does its charged dialogue and storyline genuinely portray that part of the world?

I currently have a African-American character in a story and have been somewhat nervous of having any scene which features racism or harsh dialogue solely because I'm fearful it would reflect upon me. It shouldn't be that way but I can easily imagine people here in this forum confusing what my written creations say and do with who I am and what I am really like.

And so we come back to the clip in the spotlight. Who is to say that just as Leonardo di Caprio was dying inside as he delivered his poisonous lines in Django Unchained the actress in this clip4sale scene wasn't dying too?

Like I said many times in this thread. There is nothing wrong with having a racist character if the moral of the story says racism is wrong. If the racist character is the antagonist and the protagonist saves the day, then the story is fine. Villains exist because they are doing something immoral such as murder, racism, rape, etc.

This is just it though you're kind of making a point against yourself here. Those racism porn videos you are talking about aren't any more real than SHiP videos, they involve actors and actresses playing roles. If the people behind the camera are treating them poorly thats one thing, but the FANTASY doesn't stop being a fantasy just because its about racism instead of rape. Just because you personally won't role play racist sex with your lover doesn't mean there aren't just as many African Americans, Mexicans, or anyone else out there doing that, and probably in similar volume as there are men and women 'playing' rape. Those people aren't necessarily treating others with racism nor allowing themselves to be treated with racism 'in reality'... they are possibly just fantasizing about someone they find attractive treating them (or treating someone they find attractive) with racism.

Fantasy and consent are the key's here. Unless there is cause to believe that the men and women in those videos are being treated poorly or unfairly, then there just isn't anything that massive differentiating those productions from the ones we consume.

Actually 30% to 50% of men and women have rape fantasies. We know the targeted audience for rape fantasies. Men who fantasize of being dominant, men and women who fantasize of being raped, and a few women who fantasize of being dominant.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog ... -fantasies

I have tried researching racism in porn. I cannot find any documents and research on the topic of language and racist ideals from the second video in the opening thread. I only found articles discussing the portrayal of African American men as rappers with muscular bodies and huge penises in porn. There is no resarch supporting a large volume of African Americans desiring to be treated as salves on a plantation and being called the N word.

I pointed out consent earlier and nobody responded to it. There is currently a lawsuit because a director and pornstar did not have consent to call an actor the N word.
https://www.newsweek.com/black-porn-act ... ord-932689

[GeekyPornCritic]

It is common for white supremacist to find black sex workers and sexually assault them.

And there you've gone completely over the edge with an inflammatory statement deliberately conflating fantasy and real behavior. You keep tilting the board thinking nobody will notice. It hurts your case.

My statement is not inflammatory. It is a fact just read the articles from the links below.

http://www.newser.com/story/185860/kkk- ... itute.html
http://afropunk.com/2017/10/sexual-viol ... -partners/
https://www.rapereliefshelter.bc.ca/lea ... -intersect

[Femina]

I have tried researching racism in porn. I cannot find any documents and research on the topic of language and racist ideals from the second video in the opening thread. I only found articles discussing the portrayal of African American men as rappers with muscular bodies and huge penises in porn. There is no resarch supporting a large volume of African Americans desiring to be treated as salves on a plantation and being called the N word.

I pointed out consent earlier and nobody responded to it. There is currently a lawsuit because a director and pornstar did not have consent to call an actor the N word.
https://www.newsweek.com/black-porn-act ... ord-932689

Buwhaaa? Racism porn in no way shape or form is limited to merely African Americans desiring to be treated as slaves on a plantation or being called the N word, I'm pretty sure nobodies said anything like that at all? I'm pretty sure even the video that began this thread had nothing to do with plantations or slaves? Just as the SHiP fetish is wide and varied in its content and subscribers one can assume that a fetish involving racism is likely just as varied? I mean, we don't define sexism by just 'woman being raped or called slut' there are many facets to it. We don't even define SHiP as JUST superheroines being raped.

Are you trying to say that racism porn is all just one thing and that's what makes it different from the SHiP fettish? Cause that simply can't possibly be true, to many people in the world.

Edit: As for the man suing in the link, that's fine? That's what SHOULD happen when racism crosses outside of the realm of fantasy and becomes reality... but it still doesn't really cast the shade over 'all racism porn being aired via clips4sale' that you're asking for? Unless there's evidence that each and every video (or the vast majority) of racism porn found there is being shot by people who are mistreating their actors.

[Mr. X]

My statement is not inflammatory. It is a fact just read the articles from the links below.

Edge cases are not the basis for good arguments. How many more times are there of black men fetishizing about screwing white women?

BTW at this point I would recommend people do not get pulled into a Kafka trap.

[Femina]

My statement is not inflammatory. It is a fact just read the articles from the links below.

Edge cases are not the basis for good arguments. How many more times are there of black men fetishizing about screwing white women?

BTW at this point I would recommend people do not get pulled into a Kafka trap.

I think the trick is always in figuring out what is actually an edge case in truth, and not just what is an edge case from a certain point of view? What someone considers an edge case and what actually IS an edge case probably aren't necessarily always the same thing. Providing evidence for something is always good for an argument though, even if it IS an edge case... still better than no evidence at all.

Even so... I don't think the evidence being provided is reinforcing the... thesis? of the purpose of this thread... its not particularly damning to racism porn 'as an entity' just some of the individuals who are part of it and then racism as a whole which certainly nobody here is arguing is a good thing anyway (nor even for that matter that racism PORN is a good thing... just that it's not necessarily any better or worse than any other 'fettish' so long as it remains based upon fantasy)

[Imagineer]

It absolutely is inflammatory to deliberately conflate real-world behavior with fantasies and fictional portrayals. Violence in video games, satanic messages on rock'n'roll records, the stink of the lie is decades old. You completely discredit yourself.

[Void]

This has already been addressed. No amount of people who are okay with something means anything to the people who are not okay with it - as you yourself are testament to. It dismisses nothing about the troubles you would need to have with SHIP if you want to have them with this video. Telling the enraged woman that is sick to her stomach at the preview of a SHIP video that some proportion of women love this stuff is likely to lessen her opinion of you personally, and do little else. Just like if I say that actually loads of black people just love being called the N word. It also makes the mistake of thinking only the 'wronged' group in question has a say over whether there is an issue with something, which would be a useless way of discerning ethical qualities. Imagine if white men needed to canvas the community around them to work out what content they wanted to consume was alright, because they were unable to work it out for themselves.

Also, we haven't honestly established that this video is inherently 'racist' so it's rather leading that we keep calling it 'racist porn'. It would be like if we summed up our genre as 'sexist porn'. Yes, there's lots of risqué elements, and yes they no doubt cater to racists and sexists, but that is not enough to define these things. The video depicts someone being racist, just as many SHIP videos depict people being sexist - often with overtly 'sexist' subtext with how the content is presented. It's been said in this thread many, many times now, by many different people. *Fantasy and reality are not the same thing*. A video game that wantonly portrays and glorifies the mass murder of dozens of people isn't anti-humanity content for all those anti-humans who yearn to take life. You seem comfortable making that distinction for SHIP, so I'm not clear why you are unwilling to do so here. The only difference I can tell is that this personally offends you whereas SHIP doesn't. Would this thread even exist if the N word weren't in the video? A pejorative word in fiction is not enough to make that leap, and I would hate to live in a world where it were. Real discrimination is actual, tangible action, and clear, pathological bigotry. A real world-view that the other group is subhuman and worthy of mistreatment. It's a serious label, and it shouldn't be conflated with stuff that's just insensitive or otherwise offensive to you personally.

I don't like any notion that some moral lessons are so important that nothing can ever, in any medium, contradict them. It's condescending to humanity as a whole and it often amounts to dogma - enforcing beliefs yet never offering them the support that testing and examination grants to real ideas which stand on merit. That is to say I don't care if the story frames a racist as a good or bad thing. Sure, it might OFFEND me, but I don't think so little of the world around me that it would need protecting from such a thing. If you were outraged that they were passing this clip around at the local junior school I would join your crusade - but amongst adults who don't need their hands held to frame the world around them there is no need for content to deliver any fundamental lesson. Which is all beside the point because the clip in question doesn't indicate in any clear way that racism is right or okay, and just seems to have used it as a plot device to deliver the 'punishment' that follows. This isn't propaganda. It isn't inciting hatred. It's not really conveying anything.

It's just fantasy. Not mine, not yours, but fantasy all the same.

[GeekyPornCritic]

I'm pretty sure even the video that began this thread had nothing to do with plantations or slaves?

See the second video in the first post please. There are many more like it on clip stores.

[GeekyPornCritic]

It's very oblivious we will not agree on the subject, and that's fine. We have different opinions, experiences, and knowledge on the subject. While you disagree with me, I hope you understand or respect an African American speaking against this type of porn and fetish.

I have said all I needed and wanted to say on the matter. I want to put on the record that racism fetish and porn is the only legal pornography that I am against. While I do not understand some fetishes, I respect people's rights to enjoy them.

[bushwackerbob]

Every once in a while I will reflect on my love for the fetish of superheroine peril. I think one reason for my love for SHP is a sort of counter-cultural naughtiness that it represents, the idea that my fantasy is taboo. The knowledge that this fetish is may not be societally acceptable is for me a double edged sword. It heightens my interest but also makes me fear discovery as I have not told any of my friends or family of my fetish for fear that they will not understand that my fantasy fetish bears no relationship to how I conduct myself in the real world. I fear that they will suddenly see me as this monster that condones the assault and rape of women when that could not be further from the truth. GeekyPornCritic's repeated conflation of real world behavior with fantasy fictional portrayals reinforces for me the decision not to come out fetish wise to my loved ones. Fighting racial intolerance is an admiral goal, but fighting racism by banning a studio doing racist porn is akin to fighting the Nazis by banning Hogan's Heroes tv show.

[GeekyPornCritic]

Could you look a group of

We can stop right there, because sexuality and any fetish is so taboo that you do not speak about it in polite company or with people you're not sure can handle discussing the topic with you.

I know this is going a bit off topic. Have you never talked about porn with friends? Me and a few college buddies talked about porn from time to time because we all watched it. They wanted to see what I had on my hard drive (no we were not having jerk circle).

I also took a sexuality class in college and we discuss porn openly. We did not talk about what we personally watch. We discussed fetishes, sex workers, and racial topics in sex.

[Imagineer]

Earlier you asked this

Could you look a group of African Americans in their eyes and say racism porn is an acceptable fetish?

and I stopped at "a group of" because it implies lack of familiarity.
Now you've asked this

Have you never talked about porn with friends?

which is a very different question -- very different implications in both familiarity -- a group of people vs friends -- and subject -- racism porn vs porn.

My friends grew up before Internet porn. This is not a bunch that goes beyond the shallowest of topics around sex. Nobody's ashamed to admit they watch porn but any specific interest beyond body type preference and pubic hair preference is strictly TMI. These dudes want to know what turns their buddy on about as much as they want to know what turns their mom on. The ladies want to know about mild kinks but get bored with talk of porn -- they consume written smut, not pictures and movies. I don't think anyone will be throwing an orgy any time soon.

[Femina]

Every once in a while I will reflect on my love for the fetish of superheroine peril. I think one reason for my love for SHP is a sort of counter-cultural naughtiness that it represents, the idea that my fantasy is taboo. The knowledge that this fetish is may not be societally acceptable is for me a double edged sword. It heightens my interest but also makes me fear discovery as I have not told any of my friends or family of my fetish for fear that they will not understand that my fantasy fetish bears no relationship to how I conduct myself in the real world. I fear that they will suddenly see me as this monster that condones the assault and rape of women when that could not be further from the truth. GeekyPornCritic's repeated conflation of real world behavior with fantasy fictional portrayals reinforces for me the decision not to come out fetish wise to my loved ones. Fighting racial intolerance is an admiral goal, but fighting racism by banning a studio doing racist porn is akin to fighting the Nazis by banning Hogan's Heroes tv show.

I hear you, I sometimes wrestle with similar concerns. If it helps at all, the way I like to think about it is that everyone in the world is a little bit weird in one way or another, every one of them have things they don't tell other people, and more importantly, you don't OWE everything about yourself to anyone. Keeping your fetishes to yourself is normal. By and large, its something nobody else even WANTS to talk to you about face to face anyway. About the only person I can think it'd even be acceptable to talk with about this sort of thing (outside of a group of people who also share it of course) would be with a significant other.

xD I mean, I know I sure as shit don't need or want to know my mom or dad or sister's sexual fetishes... or anyone I'd need to go and meet face to face the next day.

[tallyho]

Again guys a very well conducted discussion - bravo one and all, lots of interesting points made on both sides, and good to see respectful disagreements rather than threats and anger.

Good job , guys and gals.

[batgirl1969]

Of all of my fetishes, interracial sex seems to be the one that turns me on most, the most taboo to me....the scariest yet most thrilling!!! I LOVE it!!!

[sugarcoater]

1. Is it racism porn? Or is it creating a female character to be taken down by a black male by being sexually abused for using the word?
2. Geeky, are you black or are you projecting onto others your anticipated feelings? If I recall, there was an earlier post by a black person who mentioned being okay with it (not that one person can speak for any group, but it's at times a bit odd when someone is offended on behalf of others).
3. How about describing the plot itself so we can actually use the facts to see if this isn't actually ANTI-racist in terms of the plot? Is the woman "punished" for her use of the word?

[Mr. X]

If clips4sale actually followed the guideline it posted there'd be no clips on the site. The vast majority exploit women.

I don't believe in special cases or some excel spreadsheet of special rules for classes of people. One rule for all or no rule.

Go ahead and complain to clips4sale about the store. I'll boycott the store cause its not my thing anyway but I'll hardly stop shopping at C4S.

Sorry if I'm a bit dubious but when I see BLACKS using n*gger in rap music, comedy etc I'm not exactly sympathetic to "don't ever use the word". "I don't like when they do it" is hardly the same as "boycott them".

[GeekyPornCritic]

If clips4sale actually followed the guideline it posted there'd be no clips on the site. The vast majority exploit women.

I don't believe in special cases or some excel spreadsheet of special rules for classes of people. One rule for all or no rule.

Go ahead and complain to clips4sale about the store. I'll boycott the store cause its not my thing anyway but I'll hardly stop shopping at C4S.

Sorry if I'm a bit dubious but when I see BLACKS using n*gger in rap music, comedy etc I'm not exactly sympathetic to "don't ever use the word". "I don't like when they do it" is hardly the same as "boycott them".

Please understand not all blacks use the word. I do not use it. I also do not let anyone including blacks call me the N word. You're not sympathetic to the ones who use it, at least try to be sympathetic to people who not say it. Out of all my relatives I only know one who says the word. I don't have any black friends who say it. The rappers do not represent all of us.

What you're saying isn't much different than some blacks saying all whites are racist. When the truth is, there are racist white people, but not all of them are racist. The majority of white people are not racist.

[Mr. X]

What you're saying isn't much different than some blacks saying all whites are racist. When the truth is, there are racist white people, but not all of them are racist. The majority of white people are not racist.

I NEVER SAID THAT. What I said is nothing LIKE what you described.

[GeekyPornCritic]

What you're saying isn't much different than some blacks saying all whites are racist. When the truth is, there are racist white people, but not all of them are racist. The majority of white people are not racist.

I NEVER SAID THAT. What I said is nothing LIKE what you described.

Yes you did,

Sorry if I'm a bit dubious but when I see BLACKS using n*gger in rap music, comedy etc I'm not exactly sympathetic to "don't ever use the word". "I don't like when they do it" is hardly the same as "boycott them".

[Imagineer]

1. Is it racism porn? Or is it creating a female character to be taken down by a black male by being sexually abused for using the word?

Your "or" implies exclusive choice. It can be both.

2. Geeky, are you black or are you projecting onto others your anticipated feelings?

Come on, man, it's right there in his first post:

As a black man, I do not tolerate anyone including blacks calling me the N word or any racially charged language.

And his third post:

Yes, I am black.

And he quoted that from his third post in his fifth post. And his sixth post:

As a black man, I cannot stay silent or ignore racist porn.

And his seventh post:

I speak from personal experience as a black man...

And his ninth post:

If you were African American would you let your lover call you a N word? As a black man, I would end the relationship on that notion and remove the person from my life.

All of which are on the first page, sure. But you owe it to someone to read the first page, or at least their initial post, if you're going to call them out for taking offense of behalf of others on a topic they started. I'm not offended on his behalf, but I'm disappointed that you'd be that lazy diving into a subject this sensitive. I'll assume it's just an off day.

3. How about describing the plot itself so we can actually use the facts to see if this isn't actually ANTI-racist in terms of the plot? Is the woman "punished" for her use of the word?

The link is on the first page, in the first post. If you want to use the facts, go read it for yourself. It's not too far or too long that it need be brought here or summarized. Of course, he did summarize it in the first post....

[RedMountain]

If clips4sale actually followed the guideline it posted there'd be no clips on the site. The vast majority exploit women.

I don't believe in special cases or some excel spreadsheet of special rules for classes of people. One rule for all or no rule.

Go ahead and complain to clips4sale about the store. I'll boycott the store cause its not my thing anyway but I'll hardly stop shopping at C4S.

Sorry if I'm a bit dubious but when I see BLACKS using n*gger in rap music, comedy etc I'm not exactly sympathetic to "don't ever use the word". "I don't like when they do it" is hardly the same as "boycott them".

Please understand not all blacks use the word. I do not use it. I also do not let anyone including blacks call me the N word. You're not sympathetic to the ones who use it, at least try to be sympathetic to people who not say it. Out of all my relatives I only know one who says the word. I don't have any black friends who say it. The rappers do not represent all of us.

What you're saying isn't much different than some blacks saying all whites are racist. When the truth is, there are racist white people, but not all of them are racist. The majority of white people are not racist.

Depends on where you live honestly, having lived in both Atlanta and Detroit, I can tell you a good majority of the blacks living there really do enjoy using that word, as they call it, a term of "endearment" among themselves. You hear it daily on the commuter train, bus, walking through town, a couple of them who were real chummy at my old retail job liked to use it while at work to. I never quite understood it to be honest, but whatever floats their boat I guess.

[tallyho]

Regards Geekys last post -
I think the point being Mr X did not use the word 'ALL' in his statement where as you likened it to a black man saying 'ALL whites'.

Again thanks eveyrone for keeping it a civil discussion

[sugarcoater]

@ Imagineer
Sorry for not keeping up with the thread. I came into the conversation in the middle of it.

[sugarcoater]

But to return to the point, doesn't all of this depend on how one defines racism? Couldn't someone just as easily argue, based on the script I read in the opening post, that the woman is punished for using the word? Based on that, couldn't it be argued that the real issue is of rape more than racism? At what point is racism actually promoted in the video?

Based on what I've read on this site, I can't see anyone here being racist. I see this thread as being an intellectual exercise, with the original post as voicing a concern about the use of a hateful bigoted term. Hopefully I have the right idea; I don't intend to offend anyone but I am interested in the discussion.

[GeekyPornCritic]

But to return to the point, doesn't all of this depend on how one defines racism? Couldn't someone just as easily argue, based on the script I read in the opening post, that the woman is punished for using the word? Based on that, couldn't it be argued that the real issue is of rape more than racism? At what point is racism actually promoted in the video?

Based on what I've read on this site, I can't see anyone here being racist. I see this thread as being an intellectual exercise, with the original post as voicing a concern about the use of a hateful bigoted term. Hopefully I have the right idea; I don't intend to offend anyone but I am interested in the discussion.

Please read the opening post. Your question was answered in the first post.

The video's context is very racist. It portrays a black man raping a person for saying the N word. This screams volumes of racism. It continues the stereotype of black men being violent and dangerous.

I promise you there is not another porno online with a woman from any race being raped as punishment for saying a bigoted term to a man who is not black. That video would also probably get more heat.

[Mr. X]

Yes you did,

Sorry if I'm a bit dubious but when I see BLACKS using n*gger in rap music, comedy etc I'm not exactly sympathetic to "don't ever use the word". "I don't like when they do it" is hardly the same as "boycott them".

Saying "blacks" is not saying ALL BLACKS. Saying 'blacks" mean I have seen SOME black people doing this. When I see THOSE blacks called out THEN I'll think this is serious.

[GeekyPornCritic]

Saying "blacks" is not saying ALL BLACKS. Saying 'blacks" mean I have seen SOME black people doing this. When I see THOSE blacks called out THEN I'll think this is serious.

Your original statement generalized blacks as a single group saying the N word. For example, nobody says "some blacks were segregated before Civil Rights" because every black person faced segregation before Civil Rights.

You need to say ALL or SOME if you are not generalizing groups.

[sugarcoater]

Sorry, but that's not the way I see the racism being portrayed in the video based on the plot I read in your post. You're certainly entitled to feel as you do, but that doesn't therefore make the plot somehow racist. I don't see the violent stereotype being promoted by that sort of plot at all because it's merely a stupid video made to get people off. For racism, there has to be some sort of insidious purpose. That's my perspective. But I'm also admittedly not looking for racism, so I don't read into things as much as others might. Maybe it's because I came to the States later in life, but I read into people's actions as often as native Americans seem to. Maybe I'm a bit naive, maybe native Americans are jaded, maybe it's somewhere in the middle.

[Femina]

Yes you did,

Sorry if I'm a bit dubious but when I see BLACKS using n*gger in rap music, comedy etc I'm not exactly sympathetic to "don't ever use the word". "I don't like when they do it" is hardly the same as "boycott them".

Saying "blacks" is not saying ALL BLACKS. Saying 'blacks" mean I have seen SOME black people doing this. When I see THOSE blacks called out THEN I'll think this is serious.

He's not entirely wrong here man. Saying 'Blacks' may not be directly saying 'all blacks' but it isn't directly saying 'some blacks' either, it's vague and open to misinterpretation, and then is further muddled by the continuation whereby you sort of imply (even if only accidentally) that you give no sympathy to African Americans more sensitive to the term any slack whatsoever because of what 'SOME blacks' are doing despite it being fairly clear that 'all blacks' are not okay with it...

To be clear, I'm not calling you out here, just saying with stuff like this, clarity can get lost in translation and everyone ought to keep that in mind. Clarity is tough, but important, especially when discussing sensitive topics.

[bushwackerbob]

Personally, I wish the N word was retired for everyone. The problem is that there seems to be a divide in the African American community among some who would like to ban the word and others who use it for various reasons. Most African Americans that are in favor using the word I believe would like to ban white people from using the word. I think that is just plain stupid, for Blacks to have license to use the word but not whites. I think that GeekyPornCritic and other like minded individuals have some work to do within their own African American community in regards to the N word before they will have any success with the American public at-large. I think that a united front among African Americans regarding the use of the N word would go a long way towards the eradication of the word because right now whites see conflicting messages regarding that word in the African American community.

[Imagineer]

There are no conflicting messages, except within the African American community. For everyone else the message has been crystal clear for decades: if you're not black, you can't use the word, period, because when you use it it's an ugly racial slur, period.

EXCEPT of course if you're playing the part of an ugly racist. Then it gets nuanced.

sugarcoater: You really need to read the actual description of the actual video. I'm not saying it'll change your mind, but it will help your opinion not stick out as uninformed. You were the one who needed information, and it's right there. Click the link and read it already.

[Void]

Yeah, Geeky has every right, as do we all, to take offense to the use of the word regardless of any number of other people who are okay with it. Because SOME people don't care about dying, with many people actively wanting to die, singing about it in music, telling jokes about it in stand up routines, glorifying it in fiction, that doesn't mean I'm not sympathetic to the people who are uncomfortable with it. Extreme example, since more people will agree that death is worthy of concern, but the whole point here, again, is that you don't dismiss someone's personal view with the personal view of others. You wouldn't try to put out a fire by showing it a picture of a different house not on fire. A black person doesn't speak for all black people - nor does a black character in a video represent all black people - and it would be a little shady to think in those terms. It's also worth acknowledging that the context of a word's use does, and should, inform our experience of what it means. A black comedian using the word in a stand up routine is not the same thing as a white person using the word as a personal insult to a black person while also conveying that they consider the black person beneath them. The word isn't used in a vacuum, and it's context matters. If you call a long-time, beloved sexual partner 'slut' in the midst of some hot and heavy sex, you aren't doing the same thing as pointing at a stranger in the street wearing makeup and aggressively yelling 'slut'. The use of the word matters much more than the word itself.

I personally don't like the power the N word has, I very strongly believe it shouldn't have such power, but I'd be wilfully blind to deny that the word *has* power. I think people are wrong to make it so much more powerful than a spoken word should be - we aren't at Hogwarts - but given that I know so many people give it that power then that is enough for me to have to respect it. Likewise, I don't think SHIP *ought* to be reviled or concealed, but regardless of my philosophical stance I'd still rather eat glass than discuss it openly with people that know me personally.

Incidentally, the examination of our own genre that this thread invited has been interesting to read.

[shevek]

I've been reading this thread, thinking that it would eventually be banished to the Phantom Zone, so I'm glad to see the excellent discussion that has kept it sane and alive. I'm not going to add my personal opinion about this video to the fray, because I think most of the angles have been explored, but I will say this: the use (or non-use) of the N word is a factor of CULTURE, not race. There are cultures and subcultures within society (of all races, actually! a simple Internet search makes this abundantly clear: white suburban kids who are into rap use it as a positive epithet, as do Latino and Asian rappers and roughnecks etc....and racists of every culture use it negatively, it's certainly not limited just to ignorant whites) which encourage and condone its use, and there are cultures which discourage it. So often, the entire topic of culture is avoided and never discussed because, unlike racism, 'culturalism' is not clear-cut. To express opinions on the shortcomings of a given culture is often wrongly lambasted as 'racism' so people are very reticent to do it.

But I have a question for Geeky Porn Critic, and it needs to be prefaced. So please read on.

A few months ago, I wrote and produced an episode starring a black superheroine, Savanna, as well as several other black character actors (her mom, her pastor, her church's youth group leader, and some background folks at her favorite rib shack). The topic was about the sexy feline-powered heroine fighting a villainess who was working for gentrification in her neighborhood. The episode was well received by our viewing audience, and its content encountered no problems or issues from the mostly black cast. The N-word was not used anywhere in the episode. The actress herself was super-stoked to wear the Savanna costume, especially to honor her father who is a huge classic black comic collector nerd from the 60s...you can tell in the video she had a really good time playing the character, and I appreciated her enthusiasm.

Nonetheless, the white actress who usually plays our police captain (who is a very good friend of mine..we work together as a DJ duo and event-presenting team) did NOT want to appear in this episode, because she had this notion from her time in academia that costuming a black woman in a tight cat costume would somehow send a message to viewers that black people are 'savages' and 'animals'. I told her that there's a long history of slinky cat-wear, and that Savanna's character was based on characters like Vixen, Eartha Kitt's Catwoman, Cheetah, White Tiger and even Black Panther, and that there's an exhibit sign at the Pittsburgh Zoo that even says "African Savanna" (which was where I got the idea for the name), but she would not be convinced. So we left her character out of that episode even though she's in the others immediately before and after it. I just chalked that up to a weird bout of very specific political correctness, but it shows that you never know what people will object to, or who will do the objecting nowadays.

Next year, when we bring back Savanna for Season Two, I want to write a harder-hitting story. In this tale, Savanna would team up with a couple of other heroines from the League to bring down an arrogant drug dealer who is creating addicts in her neighborhood by distributing a drug that gives its users a brief superhuman high (the idea is based on the Green Light arc from Black Lightning). The drug dealer kidnaps Savanna's sister, Stacy, who has latent gene transformation from the dark-energy meteor, and by administering the drug, transforms Stacy into Pulveriza, a six-foot-tall muscular black rampaging amazon who is ready to do the drug dealer's evil bidding. Naturally a fight between Pulveriza and the heroines ensues and of course for a while, she'll be tossing them around the room like rag dolls.

But my question, Geeky, is this: since we're setting this in a drug culture / gangsta rap setting, would it be permissible for me, as a white writer, to put the N-word in the script? Am I allowed to have the dealer and his henchmen call each other that word as a term of camaraderie (as in when they enter the room, they greet with 'what's up, N?') and also call his enemies the word as well (as in 'Pulveriza, you're gonna help me destroy those N's!').
Am I allowed to do this..or it is just better avoided, even though it wouldn't be as realistic and hard-hitting to do so?

Let me know what you think, Geeky! I like the reviews that you've done on here, and respect your opinion on this since you'd be a bit harder on it (and bit more informed) than most people. Thanks!

[GeekyPornCritic]

I've been reading this thread, thinking that it would eventually be banished to the Phantom Zone, so I'm glad to see the excellent discussion that has kept it sane and alive. I'm not going to add my personal opinion about this video to the fray, because I think most of the angles have been explored, but I will say this: the use (or non-use) of the N word is a factor of CULTURE, not race. There are cultures and subcultures within society (of all races, actually! a simple Internet search makes this abundantly clear: white suburban kids who are into rap use it as a positive epithet, as do Latino and Asian rappers and roughnecks etc....and racists of every culture use it negatively, it's certainly not limited just to ignorant whites) which encourage and condone its use, and there are cultures which discourage it. So often, the entire topic of culture is avoided and never discussed because, unlike racism, 'culturalism' is not clear-cut. To express opinions on the shortcomings of a given culture is often wrongly lambasted as 'racism' so people are very reticent to do it.

But I have a question for Geeky Porn Critic, and it needs to be prefaced. So please read on.

A few months ago, I wrote and produced an episode starring a black superheroine, Savanna, as well as several other black character actors (her mom, her pastor, her church's youth group leader, and some background folks at her favorite rib shack). The topic was about the sexy feline-powered heroine fighting a villainess who was working for gentrification in her neighborhood. The episode was well received by our viewing audience, and its content encountered no problems or issues from the mostly black cast. The N-word was not used anywhere in the episode. The actress herself was super-stoked to wear the Savanna costume, especially to honor her father who is a huge classic black comic collector nerd from the 60s...you can tell in the video she had a really good time playing the character, and I appreciated her enthusiasm.

Nonetheless, the white actress who usually plays our police captain (who is a very good friend of mine..we work together as a DJ duo and event-presenting team) did NOT want to appear in this episode, because she had this notion from her time in academia that costuming a black woman in a tight cat costume would somehow send a message to viewers that black people are 'savages' and 'animals'. I told her that there's a long history of slinky cat-wear, and that Savanna's character was based on characters like Vixen, Eartha Kitt's Catwoman, Cheetah, White Tiger and even Black Panther, and that there's an exhibit sign at the Pittsburgh Zoo that even says "African Savanna" (which was where I got the idea for the name), but she would not be convinced. So we left her character out of that episode even though she's in the others immediately before and after it. I just chalked that up to a weird bout of very specific political correctness, but it shows that you never know what people will object to, or who will do the objecting nowadays.

Next year, when we bring back Savanna for Season Two, I want to write a harder-hitting story. In this tale, Savanna would team up with a couple of other heroines from the League to bring down an arrogant drug dealer who is creating addicts in her neighborhood by distributing a drug that gives its users a brief superhuman high (the idea is based on the Green Light arc from Black Lightning). The drug dealer kidnaps Savanna's sister, Stacy, who has latent gene transformation from the dark-energy meteor, and by administering the drug, transforms Stacy into Pulveriza, a six-foot-tall muscular black rampaging amazon who is ready to do the drug dealer's evil bidding. Naturally a fight between Pulveriza and the heroines ensues and of course for a while, she'll be tossing them around the room like rag dolls.

But my question, Geeky, is this: since we're setting this in a drug culture / gangsta rap setting, would it be permissible for me, as a white writer, to put the N-word in the script? Am I allowed to have the dealer and his henchmen call each other that word as a term of camaraderie (as in when they enter the room, they greet with 'what's up, N?') and also call his enemies the word as well (as in 'Pulveriza, you're gonna help me destroy those N's!').
Am I allowed to do this..or it is just better avoided, even though it wouldn't be as realistic and hard-hitting to do so?

Let me know what you think, Geeky! I like the reviews that you've done on here, and respect your opinion on this since you'd be a bit harder on it (and bit more informed) than most people. Thanks!

Before I answer your question, I must talk about the white suburban kids. Does everyone remember the video of a young Justin Bieber saying the N word? People gave excuses because he was young. I was offended by the people defending him because he was a teenager. Then, YouTuber Pewdiepie has said it in a few videos on YouTube. Fans defended him for being ignorant.

I must ask the question. Were they ignorant? The answer is shockingly NO, and here is why. If you went to public school, then you took US History. You learned about Civil Rights, Slavery, and Racism. Your teacher taught you that racism was wrong and America is a progressing nation. February is Black History Month, and schools normally teach acceptance during this month. These young white men were not ignorant. They knew what they were saying, and Pewdiepie has no respect for his African American viewers.

I don't agree with the use of the word. I understand the context of its use. Saying it to insult people like the videos that I posted is intentional racism. If a black or white friend (any race really) called me the N word then I would tell him to never call me the word again, and if he continues then I would stop associating with him. If a random black guy was calling me the N to get my attention then I would keep walking and ignore his existence until he says sir.

The context of a character must also be looked at. I expect a racist bad guy to say racist comments. That's not offensive under most circumstances. Its storytelling, the message is racism is wrong, and the good guys will overcome.

I would not have a problem with your video if black characters call each other the N word. It would not be promoting racism. It is just being realistic that a lot of young black men call each other the N word. No offense, I would only skip the video because I'm not into urban/hip hop culture.

[saxman314]

I understand your problem with the video: that not only is the word being used in a racist manner, but that it prompts the actor to act out a particularly dangerous racist caricature of himself that is at the root of so many unconscious societal fears of "the black man," and leads to so many problems from over-policing and being shot down without cause to the simple crossing the street or clutching of pearls. I personally believe that kink is kink, and while a clear, rational line maintains the distinction between fantasy and reality, anything between consenting adults should be ok, but I'm also not naive enough to think that everyone entertaining this particular fantasy maintains that separation.

In my opinion, boycotting c4s over this is taking aim at the wrong target, as their platform is to provide access to all sorts of kinks and fetishes, no matter how distasteful. To be honest, the real problem I have with the existence of this kind of fantasy on the scale we have it in the US is that it is clearly born of a societal sickness. The fantasy itself, or the videos portraying it, isn't the problem: it's a symptom. Dunno that there's honestly anything to be done about that without the long, slow process of fixing the ills of our shared culture on a large scale, which has been an effort on the forefront for the last several years and of course still has a very long way to go. Successfully taking action against the kinksters or producers themselves would only, I think, result in other kinks being targeted successfully in the future.

I'm regularly annoyed by the incessant whining of certain members here about "political correctness," which is code for "common decency that I don't want to deal with," but in this case, I have to agree that however much of a stomach-turner this racist fantasy can be, it's got to be given the same space to exist that the rest of the distasteful/disgraceful stuff gets. Like I do with those sobbing posts on this forum, if I see a video with this type of content, I'll personally be avoiding it, and I think that's probably the entirely appropriate response.

[Mr. X]

Before I answer your question, I must talk about the white suburban kids. Does everyone remember the video of a young Justin Bieber saying the N word? People gave excuses because he was young. I was offended by the people defending him because he was a teenager. Then, YouTuber Pewdiepie has said it in a few videos on YouTube. Fans defended him for being ignorant.

Maybe Pewdeepie and Beiber said the word cause they saw some black actors, rappers and comedians use it and thought it would be hip to use it AND some of the same people who get outraged DON'T get outraged when these same black actors, rappers and comedians use the word.

The rules HAVE TO apply universally or they don't apply. You KANT make an excel spread sheet of special cases.

If you went to public school, then you took US History. You learned about Civil Rights, Slavery, and Racism. Your teacher taught you that racism was wrong and America is a progressing nation. February is Black History Month, and schools normally teach acceptance during this month. These young white men were not ignorant.

Think about that real hard. Why is it focused ONLY on whites?

[Imagineer]

Rules don't have to be universal, because circumstances are not universal.

If you truly need a spreadsheet, I will be happy to provide the four cells to you; PM me.

[GeekyPornCritic]

Before I answer your question, I must talk about the white suburban kids. Does everyone remember the video of a young Justin Bieber saying the N word? People gave excuses because he was young. I was offended by the people defending him because he was a teenager. Then, YouTuber Pewdiepie has said it in a few videos on YouTube. Fans defended him for being ignorant.

Maybe Pewdeepie and Beiber said the word cause they saw some black actors, rappers and comedians use it and thought it would be hip to use it AND some of the same people who get outraged DON'T get outraged when these same black actors, rappers and comedians use the word.

The rules HAVE TO apply universally or they don't apply. You KANT make an excel spread sheet of special cases.

If you went to public school, then you took US History. You learned about Civil Rights, Slavery, and Racism. Your teacher taught you that racism was wrong and America is a progressing nation. February is Black History Month, and schools normally teach acceptance during this month. These young white men were not ignorant.

Think about that real hard. Why is it focused ONLY on whites?

You are missing one thing my friend. The key words are some people. Pewdeepie knew not all his African American fans would be okay with him saying the word. Not everyone thinks the same as pointed out by Shevek and Femina. He did not care about those black fans who would stop supporting him after saying the word.

As you said, Pewdeepie knew some black fans would not care. These are probably the same people, who did not care Kanye West said blacks wanted to be slaves. They continue to support him despite saying racist comments against his own race.

The media mainly focuses it on whites.

Let me share a personal experience from college. I was assaulted by an urban African American for not being black enough. I was offended that he called me the N word after he already knew I was offended by the word and he made the situation worse by saying "you're the white man's N and need to realize it Uncle Tom." I cursed him out without knowing he was a gang member. He left the classroom and attacked me after class. I managed to get away when I later learned he called a few gang buddies to also assault me.

The local media never covered the assault nor did campus make students aware of this dangerous individual before he was arrested.

[Femina]

Before I answer your question, I must talk about the white suburban kids. Does everyone remember the video of a young Justin Bieber saying the N word? People gave excuses because he was young. I was offended by the people defending him because he was a teenager. Then, YouTuber Pewdiepie has said it in a few videos on YouTube. Fans defended him for being ignorant.

Maybe Pewdeepie and Beiber said the word cause they saw some black actors, rappers and comedians use it and thought it would be hip to use it AND some of the same people who get outraged DON'T get outraged when these same black actors, rappers and comedians use the word.

The rules HAVE TO apply universally or they don't apply. You KANT make an excel spread sheet of special cases.

That'd be feasible in a perfect world maybe? Problem is that everyone is different, have had different experiences and don't think alike... that's not to say I necessarily disagree that the rules should be universal... they should be, I'm just saying that EXPECTING everybody to apply the rules universally in a world full of individuals is either naive or else bullheadedly stubborn? Even in a world where everyone is equal it is still up to the individual to behave themselves as equals else suffer the consequences, which the human race has proven itself historically to be utterly incapable of doing. Therefore it is basically up to the individual to behave themselves and consider what they are saying in accordance to what will generate the least conflict unless conflict is the point... which often causes others to take offense or become aggravated.

If you went to public school, then you took US History. You learned about Civil Rights, Slavery, and Racism. Your teacher taught you that racism was wrong and America is a progressing nation. February is Black History Month, and schools normally teach acceptance during this month. These young white men were not ignorant.

Think about that real hard. Why is it focused ONLY on whites?

It's pretty clear GPC isn't up here championing African American rights to use the N word so I'm not sure why you keep bringing this point up? He's made it pretty clear he doesn't like the word, nor would he use it, nor does he condone its use by others even of his own race (just that he accepts its use in TV/film etc. where it REALISTICALLY portrays people who DO use it). So it sort of comes off like you're telling him that even though he doesn't use the word and doesn't like the word being used anywhere, that since some African Americans DO use it, that even the African Americans that don't use it should suck it up and shrug it off whenever they hear anyone using it.

THAT ALL BEING SAID.... *Deep inhale*

You've also kind of also has a point here because, and to take it all back to the overall topic at hand, even in pornography we reflect culture. White people DO use the N word occasionally, usually either obliviously, to make a very careful point, OR to cause offense... and this porno seems to have been using the N word to illustrate that the woman was racist no? In which case 'punishing?' her with sex/rape? seems like an aggressive fantasy input into an otherwise culturally 'realistic' portrayal of a racist getting some form of comeuppance... which isn't all that different from Leonardo Dicaprio's character in Django Unchained getting his ass shot for being a racist slave owner is it?

[Mr. X]

Pewdeepie knew not all his African American fans would be okay with him saying the word.

He's from Sweden I believe.

That'd be feasible in a perfect world maybe? Problem is that everyone is different, have had different experiences and don't think alike... that's not to say I necessarily disagree that the rules should be universal... they should be, I'm just saying that EXPECTING everybody to apply the rules universally in a world full of individuals is either naive or else bullheadedly stubborn? Even in a world where everyone is equal it is still up to the individual to behave themselves as equals else suffer the consequences, which the human race has proven itself historically to be utterly incapable of doing. Therefore it is basically up to the individual to behave themselves and consider what they are saying in accordance to what will generate the least conflict unless conflict is the point... which often causes others to take offense or become aggravated.

Then what is the point of fighting racism if the rules are different for everyone? How is what you say different than just applying a subjective set of standards to each person or group?

The act is bad - period. The act is not bad cause of who performs it or the intentions of the person performing it or how much money they have or their skin color etc. We real classic liberals fought against that thinking for decades. There is no such thing as good slavery or benevolent racism.

Life is not an excel spreadsheet.

White people DO use the N word occasionally

White people? Didn't you just point out to me above about using language like this?

[Femina]

Then what is the point of fighting racism if the rules are different for everyone? How is what you say different than just applying a subjective set of standards to each person or group?

The act is bad - period. The act is not bad cause of who performs it or the intentions of the person performing it or how much money they have or their skin color etc. We real classic liberals fought against that thinking for decades. There is no such thing as good slavery or benevolent racism.

Life is not an excel spreadsheet.

I agree with most of what you're saying here, don't get me wrong. This sort of falls into the same cage as telling GPC here that I feel he's perfectly in his rights to fight this even though he hasn't really provided me with any arguments strong enough to bring me into the 'fight' (so to speak). I just don't personally subscribe to what I'd consider 'party lines' I'm to much intrigued by what individuals are likely to do more so than what organizations are likely to do. The act Is bad period, this is true, but that doesn't mean that everyone who takes the action or is affected by the action responds to the act equally, and it makes a little sense to tread more carefully around the topic while speaking with someone that it affects MORE than it affects you and cut them a little slack? It doesn't have to be all or nothing, all of the time.

All I'm saying here is, to be as crystal clear as I can be, some of your arguments up top appear to be trying to tell GPC that since some blacks use the N word, all blacks should get over it and not worry about the word... which from a certain standpoint, the standpoint being that one shouldn't allow solitary words to hold so much power over them makes a certain sort of sense and wisdom... and I wholeheartedly agree with this standpoint to a certain extent... but that also comes from the standpoint of someone (myself included) who the word, generally speaking, affects very little. It's easy to tell someone they shouldn't be offended by something that offends them, it's a lot harder to never take offense to something that offends you. I generally just want to cause as little offense as possible while not sacrificing my opinion unless I'm presented what I consider to be a good argument as to why I am wrong that I agree with, so to me it always makes the most sense to give leniency to the person (or people) most emotionally invested in something, while providing as much logical and rational advice as I am able. I know full well that I am not always right, nor am I always helpful, and I try also to consider that when presenting my oppinions.

White people DO use the N word occasionally

White people? Didn't you just point out to me above about using language like this?

This is totally Fair. To clarify, that sentence was mostly to say that 'some white people use it as well'

And to be very very clear, I've still not seen anything here to make me feel like C4S or even the video producers in general have done anything any better or worse than anything that belongs in our own fetish.

[Mr. X]

See now we're playing this game of stumbling on words. This shouldn't happen in conversation.

[RedMountain]

I honestly would love to see the N word just banished from use by all, though I do find it funny that especially with the media here in the United States, that it's often only portrayed as whites using and abusing it. White people are blamed for pretty much everything under the sun these days, but I would like to see many of the people screaming racism at every turn here in the United States go live in any Asian country for a year or two. Especially China, Korea, or Japan, their cultures can be incredibly hostile and racist to outsiders, especially blacks. We still have a lot to work on and fix here in the US among all of us, but quite honestly a lot of people screaming about how bad things are here would come running home singing the US' praises if they had to live in other parts of the world. This doesn't excuse any type of racist behavior here at home, I just wanted to point this out because it's so sensationalized and the media makes you think America is the only place racism exists.

[Femina]

See now we're playing this game of stumbling on words. This shouldn't happen in conversation.

A quippy sentence to avoid talking about things shouldn't happen in a conversation either. But life is a series of disappointments.

You pointed out a legitimate observation about how I phrased something in response to my observation about how you phrased something. It was legitimate, now you've gone and made it look like the only reason you pointed it out was so that you didn't have to comment on anything else that was content in the post.

There's really very little that makes me want to dismiss someone more than when someone reads a considerate response to a statement, then goes 'ooooh you misspelled congress at the end!' and leaves the discussion immediately as though pointing out the error somehow invalidates everything else.

[bushwackerbob]

When I hear a White person use the N word, in my mind, I immediately associate that ugly word with our country's disgraceful history of slavery, that the word is used to dehumanize African Americans to justify their treatment as mere property, not as individuals. I feel the same way when African Americans use the word no matter the context, meaning or intent. Once the word is out there, it coarsens our dialogue, I think it diminishes those who use it. The era of slavery in the U.S happened, it was a shameful part of our history and I feel that anyone who uses that word is trying to drag us back into the muck of misery and suffering. Much like the VCR, 8 track tapes, and rotary phones, the N word should be an antiquated part of our history, a symbol of a time and place where a particular race of people were denied their humanity. The past is the past though. History should be remembered but not revisited.

[ivandobsky]

What is this Scottish word you're all talking about. Only joking. I know it! I basically agree with iDubbbz.

[kwood138]

Quick, somebody call the porn police!

[Bugsy44]

This whole thing is too much!

2 pages of panties in a bunch over a word but all is good with rape videos! Just Wow!

[HeroineTard]

This whole thing is too much!

2 pages of panties in a bunch over a word but all is good with rape videos! Just Wow!

Yeah seriously. This whole topic is both idiotic and highly hypocritical.