Ethics of nonconsent?

[Frenemy54]

I was just wondering what everyone's feelings are on the use of Nonconsent/rape in their stories.

Personally, I bear women no grudge and and totally down with equality and everything, and yet I still get off to NC. Not terribly conflicted about it myself, but I don't believe I could justify my stories to any of the women in my life. I was just curious about how everyone felt about it morally. I don't intend any harm myself, but lord knows there are people out there in the internet who don't bear women the same respect (and I would hate to encourage them.)

Been writing for a while, but being relatively new to the online community I hadn't really engaged in such conversations too often.

[Disciple]

I saw someone on another site compare it to skydiving: it simulates the thrill of something totally awful and undesirable, while actually giving everyone involved all the power in the word to back out whenever they feel like it. In fact, one might call it safer than its point of analogy; your parachute can play all kinds of tricks on you during skydiving, but if a non-con story makes you uncomfortable (and many do for me, especially the "realistic" ones), well, the back button is just a second away...

[Imagineer]

It's just fantasy roleplay.

[shevek]

You can not like it, and that's fine. But it's just fantasy, as Imagineer said. As long as you do not actively oppose it or crusade against it. Then you become textbook SJW. Sagan help us if the sjws discover SHIP as something to be outraged against. Please don't tell 'em. We don't need a Gamergate or an Evergreen College up in here. Thanks so much!

btw about the issue of "justifying" it to women...obviously you should be very selective about whom you tell, but I think there are a good number of women who fantasize about force themselves, just like there are plenty of men who like to be dominated (cucked, etc). The force doesn't have to be the patriarchy, it could be another woman. And I think there are certainly edgy/trangressive/kinky type women that you *could* justify and describe it to..I happen to know several myself, they tend to be burlesquers or bondage types. I talk about SHIP openly with them and they understand because they are into analogous stuff. Batgirl1969 definitely isn't alone out there

[Femina]

A good general rule of thumb for your fetishes are that nobody else cares what your fetish is.... so unless your interested in finding mutual interest in said fetish with another then it's probably best not to bother them with the details of your fetish (obviously the same doesn't hold true in this forum or anything, but a good general rule is 'if it ain't their business they probably don't even WANT to hear it) all those women in your life, unless you suspect they shared a similar fetish it isn't something they need to know, that you owe them... or even a conversation any of them wants or even cares that much about.

AS to the subject of non-consequential fantasy, I'm a woman who is in this whole genre thing from the perspective that I like to empathize/fantasize with/as the heroine in subjective to sexual peril... it's the idea of being incredibly powerful... and that not mattering that turns me on... but I sure as hell wouldn't want it happening in real life, nor do I imagine any of the other woman of similar mind would, so take that for what you will.

[tallyho]

I think a lot comes down to HOW its written, it could be gratuitous or more sensitively handled. I have done both, merely to see if I could handle the challenge as a writer. So I have written some pieces where the heroine pretty much becomes the victim and then others where she digs deep and uses the experience to make herself psychologically stronger. Personally I dont get anything out of it but I dont judge those who do in a fantasy context. Key word being fantasy.

[Abductorenmadrid]

I was just wondering what everyone's feelings are on the use of Nonconsent/rape in their stories.

Trying to keep things on topic, how writers deal with NC in their stories ....

Firstly, it depends on the style of story. "It depends" sucks as an answer so let me elaborate.

Some stories have a feel of porn parody. Everyone's motivation is sexual, the villains motivations are to rob the chaste heroine of her powers through sex or find some way to copy her abilities by exploiting her "weak spot" or some such. Visually this might be something akin to Diana Knight having her way with Christna Carter in some WW-esque plot. So long as the writer keeps this world firmly anchored to melodrama it is easy to read that it is not real, more like fantasy. It is that detached from reality feeling that permits one to enjoy the sexual peril even when presented as NC.


The stories I write aim at the other end of the spectrum, my target render for my world is perhaps "Blacklist" (with Spader) or The Dark Knight (with Bale). This brings with it some difficulties and challenges and in some way some bonuses. Firstly, with real world the likelihood that the villain will conclude "making the heroine orgasm will make her powerless" or equivalent is not realistic. This means the main focus of peril is less likely to be sexual in nature, it is more likely to be unmasking or being left tied to a bomb. That doesn't mean NC won't happen in my stories though. I try to ensure I don't glorify or revel in such encounters. Being abstract, cutting away or dealing with the aftermath should be enough, an NC scene for me is usually about establishing character, not for anyone to get turned on by (because the world I am trying to present is meant to be realistic). For reference I' suggest "Spydra : Webs of Deceit" and the chapter "Thursday" as an example of what I do.

[batgirl1969]

And I think there are certainly edgy/trangressive/kinky type women that you *could* justify and describe it to..I happen to know several myself, they tend to be burlesquers or bondage types. I talk about SHIP openly with them and they understand because they are into analogous stuff. Batgirl1969 definitely isn't alone out there

It is like whispering sweet nothings to my ears....just mention a ballgag and a forced orgasm and I literally turn to putty in a doms hands(man or woman!!)

[bbsucks]

I think killing is a pretty good comparison that a lot of people would be able to relate to. Killing is awful. Hopefully nobody here would ever kill anyone. If you saw someone be murdered in real life, even if they were a bad person, it'd probably make you feel sick to your stomach. Yet so many people love watching action movies and playing action video games where the main character heroically kills tons of people without really batting an eye. Why? It's exciting and dramatic and it's really easy to say, "I know what real is. I know what this is. And I'm comfortable with my sense of ethics in regards to killing people, as well as my ability to distinguish this from reality."

And that's kind of how I feel about non-consensual stuff in this genre. And even just general violence towards women (and men. But it's mostly happening to women around these parts). I like watching it a whole lot for a whole host of reasons. But at no point do I want to see the actual version of it happening in reality, nor would I even be remotely turned on by the notion of it. Personally, I think that's why I like the superheroine aspect of all of this. It adds a nice little layer of "this is fantasy!" over-the-top unrealistic drama/reason to react to things in an unrealistic way to the whole thing. Well... that and the costumes.

Those are my thoughts. I have no moral conflicts about being into this stuff. I don't think of my interest in this genre as making me a super secret closet woman hater or anything like that. I find it very easy to separate the women in my life and the women playing the parts in these movies, from the characters in the movies. I don't necessarily run around telling people about it. But a lot of my comfort in this genre comes from knowing myself, and being confident and secure in the fact that I really don't wish this stuff upon real people and am not turned on by the realistic version of any of this. I don't necessarily expect other people to have that same level of faith in my ethics, understanding of what exactly it is that I find exciting about this fantasy, or to necessarily be able to distinguish what I like about the fantasy version from actual real rape to the same degree that I do.

[tallyho]

^^^^:giggle: Hmmmn 'Secret Closet Woman'...sounds like a superhero...

Has she got a sidekick, Wardrobe Girl?

[kendra]

I tend to only like the lighter more fantasy version of noncon. The type of noncon that becomes con as she can't help but like it. It's unrealistic and that's probably why it works for me.
Straight noncon with violence and tears and it's all negative, that doesn't work for me. Some people dig it for fantasy and as long as that's where it stays... Ok.

[shevek]

As I recall, the Giga movies do straight noncon very well. Lots of tears and protesting from the Japanese girls. Can get to be a bit much but is OK in small doses.

But you're right, fantasy noncon is better. The idea that a character is just so sexed-up that even when she initially resists it, she starts to enjoy it, is hot in fantasy, because it's a kind of "transformation" or "conversion" (like turning a straight girl lesbian, or turning a nerd into a sexpot, or turning a wimp into an amazon, etc.) As I recall, producers like Primal, Anastasia and Christina do some good work in that area.....

[Heroine Addict]

The Japanese seem to have some strange attitudes when it comes to the welfare of performers. I saw one of the GIGA videos in which the actress clearly hit her head against a basin, with quite a thud. It appeared to be an on-set accident with no deliberate staging. The guy playing the villain just carried on dragging her around, regardless. Even though the sex is staged, I get the distinct impression that the actresses don't have a great time on-set. It kind of sours those videos.

Of course, the Japanese appear to have some lax laws about ordinary women being molested in the street and on public transport. I'm not sure how much of that stuff is real and how much is staged. I don't really want to take a closer look to find out. The covers certainly market the videos as genuine assaults which would be illegal in any other civilized country.

Yet, bizarrely, they think it's a massive taboo to show an unpixelated pussy in any video. As if some guy watching a Japanese girl caked in her own fresh and steaming shit is going to catch a glimpse of vagina and say "Oh, that's a bit much!"

[SecretSociety]

The Japanese seem to have some strange attitudes when it comes to the welfare of performers. I saw one of the GIGA videos in which the actress clearly hit her head against a basin, with quite a thud. It appeared to be an on-set accident with no deliberate staging. The guy playing the villain just carried on dragging her around, regardless. Even though the sex is staged, I get the distinct impression that the actresses don't have a great time on-set. It kind of sours those videos.

Guess it depends on the specific production. There was a behind the scenes video where this big guy would toss around the heroine onto mats, and he would make sure if she was alright after each throw.

[Frenemy54]

Thanks guys! Like I said, it's not really a personal hang up. I can keep fantasy and reality separate. Thing is, I had been thinking of publishing some of my stories as Ebooks, and I was concerned with decrying violence against women while profiting off it's depiction. The only real concern I have is that some abusive douche might read one of my stories and feel vindicated or emboldened. That's why I like to put a disclaimer right across the header - fantasy is fine as long as it stays fantasy.

I've often questioned how/if my fetish relates to me as a person. What does it say about me that I enjoy watching Jessica Alba get spanked with a belt in "The Killer Inside Me" or Rooney Mara get ass raped in "Girl With a Dragon Tattoo." I know it's a fantasy and that I don't really have to justify my kinks to anyone, but for a long while there, I felt the need to critique my tastes (almost keeping an eye in myself.) But thanks to finding online communities like this one, I can see how healthy and commonplace my tastes are!

[batgirl1969]

I bet if Fantasy Island was a show today...WOW...would probably be pretty rough...kind of surprised they haven't remade that show! I bet this very topic would be an episode or 2....Plus that little guy is hilarious!!

[bushwackerbob]

There are times when I fantasize about killing my boss, but in reality, I would never ever in a million years even come close to committing that act. Having a fantasy life is a part of the normal human condition, the contents of which is a private matter unless one wishes to share it. At the end of the day, it is one's actions that defines us, not words or thoughts.

[Heroine Addict]

Thanks guys! Like I said, it's not really a personal hang up. I can keep fantasy and reality separate. Thing is, I had been thinking of publishing some of my stories as Ebooks, and I was concerned with decrying violence against women while profiting off it's depiction. The only real concern I have is that some abusive douche might read one of my stories and feel vindicated or emboldened. That's why I like to put a disclaimer right across the header - fantasy is fine as long as it stays fantasy.

I've often questioned how/if my fetish relates to me as a person. What does it say about me that I enjoy watching Jessica Alba get spanked with a belt in "The Killer Inside Me" or Rooney Mara get ass raped in "Girl With a Dragon Tattoo." I know it's a fantasy and that I don't really have to justify my kinks to anyone, but for a long while there, I felt the need to critique my tastes (almost keeping an eye in myself.) But thanks to finding online communities like this one, I can see how healthy and commonplace my tastes are!

I guess a lot depends on your market. To an outsider, it would be easy to assume that this community is full of misogynists who are using fictional heroines as substitutes for women they personally hate. Yet there's none of that here. The only author who I suspected might have 'issues' was so illiterate that it was difficult to tell what the fuck he was trying to say. Literally half his word count consisted of angry sex noises spelled phonetically in caps.

Yet a member of the Not We might not see us as reasonable people with a healthy grasp of the distinction between fantasy and reality. For many, issues of consent cause a ZERO TOLERANCE knee jerk where anything that even suggests the audience should enjoy seeing the sexual peril is taken as a tacit endorsement of rape.

I've never been a fan of the "Effects Model" used by charlatans to argue that fiction directly leads to real-life imitation. It has always been a simplistic way to scapegoat books/movies/games while doing Jack Shit about the complex problems that turn people into monsters. It's popular because it give politicians and news outlets the illusion of "doing something" to protect society.

It might be worth building up the sexual elements in your stories gradually to see at what point people start to really push back. But like I say, there will always be those who have zero tolerance for any non-consensual elements. You can only hope that a disclaimer will weed them out with a minimum of fuss.

I personally have no interest in peril scenarios outside of this genre. For me, the brightly-colored world where heroines in tight costumes are stimulated until they soak their tights is a fulfillment of what I imagined might happen next in a twisted version of the shows I used to watch. It kind of has that extra level of detachment in that it's a parody of something that's already absurd.

[misterwowsers]

I hold it with the same regard as video games, or a controversial movie. You can do or watch whatever creatively fucked up thing you can imagine. But in the end no real harm has occurred. Except maybe a little special sauce may have ended up somewhere undesirable, which happens during consensual bouts of debauchery anyway. Unless a particularly unstable individual decides to act on what they have seen. But this would more than likely occur anyway as nut jobs will always find a way to be rapey killing machines. Look at the bible and all of the debauched funseekers it depicts doing horrible things, inspiring a long passed history of debauched funseekers doing horrible things. And yet it is a "pinnacle" of morality.

[LadySapphire]

Its unethical. But thats why its a perfect fantasy!

[Void]

Interesting discussion. I'm pretty much in the same place you are - that I'm very comfortable with what I've written and the reasons I wrote it, but that I wouldn't be in a hurry to show it to many people (men or women) I actually know. I know there's a whole lot of (not completely undeserved) stigma for the depiction of sexual abuse for the express purpose of titillation, and I respect anyone that would judge me negatively for it. That being said, I don't personally see it as being much different from writing stories that depict violent or sadistic murder/torture, even though that content is much more commonly accepted. At the end of the day you're exploring a fantasy; you're not glorifying or recommending anything. Yes it's a fetishized fantasy - I imagine people 'get off' to it - but it's still purely fantasy in a very fantastical setting.

I might feel differently about really 'hard' noncon (everything I've done - and what 90% of people do - in this genre has involved the heroine ultimately physically enjoying the experience and the whole thing being more dubcon.)

I could wax lyrical about the many things that draw me to the genre/kink, but among the many things I would talk about any opinion about men or women wouldn't be among them. I'd like to think any women who share my interest in the power-play or seductive elements of the genre would enjoy my stories as much as any men who enjoy the same stuff. Dubcon written for the benefit of female readership is all over Amazon if you look.

You aren't responsible for douches - who are already douches before coming anywhere near your story.

[Kitten]

Depends on it's application.

As a real life hobby, it's a pretty terrible concept.

As a tool for fiction its fine. Fiction is full of terrible actions, that's what creates action and drama. Regularly people are shot, killed, and have other brutal things happen to them. In a work of fiction, it is more acceptable.

Really, saying people go out and rape women because of your stories, is like saying people take guns and kill people or create acts of terrorism because of big budget movies. Most sane people won't do it just because they read it in a story. There is PLENTY of superheroine fiction around. I assure you, the odds of me getting into tights and foiling crime are at least as slim as the average reader being inspired to go out and take some one against their will (or if they do, they probably would have done it with or with out your story).

[Johanna]

Noncon all the way for me: I'm into the hardcore torture/interrogation victim fantasies and the excitement comes from imagining myself in such a terrifying predicament; peril's not true peril if the captive's even slightly okay with what's going on.

[endofallthings2]

I'm one of the biggest fans of the 'nasty stuff'. Not just non-con, but humiliation, fatal demises for heroines etc. However, I'm also absolutely clear that there is fantasy on one side, and reality all the way over at the far end of the other side. We can all be computer game action heroes or anti-heros and kill/main and society doesn't bat an eye, however introduce sexuality into that fantasy realm and due to our weird cultural hang ups it becomes a big ethical deal. Others have already said it more eloquently - however a fantasy life is actually healthy.

[arkane]

The force doesn't have to be the patriarchy

Probably you don't enjoy it freely because you mix politics into it.


libido doesn't give a *§#% about politically correct

[Night_Lantern]

This has been a fascinating thread to read through. I too have questioned what my kinks and writings on here say about me as a person. But I do agree that it is a person's actions that say more than their thoughts and words. Who hasn't gone to a place in their mind that they wouldn't share publicly right?

Consent is paramount to me in any real-life sexual relationship and I view the stories I write almost like pre-negotiated scenes. It's not an exact equivalent since I'm the one forcing the heroine into these compromising and sexually humiliating situations. But I try to divorce my sexual desires as the writer from the heroine's experience of the situation as much as I can. I also tend to find it leads to better story when I'm more sensitive to and lean into the heroine's emotions than simply describing physical acts being performed on her while she mindlessly moans in ecstasy (a big turn-off for me). And as the reader you can click away at any point it crosses a line for you or bores you (whichever comes first haha) and I won't be offended. We each have our own preferences and I certainly don't want to impose what I feel is okay on you.

Anyhow, this is all to say I have enjoyed the acceptance and positivity I have encountered on this forum for the most part as I explore what fascinates me about superheroines in tight costumes and bondage. And I believe most of us perceive the distinction between what we write or think about here and what we do as human beings.

[shevek]

The force doesn't have to be the patriarchy

Probably you don't enjoy it freely because you mix politics into it.


libido doesn't give a *§#% about politically correct

No idea what you're talking about, I enjoy it just fine

I simply said that the "force" that creates the nonconsensual situation doesn't have to be viewed as coming from "patriarchy"..as third-wave feminists would tend to interpret. It can be coming from anywhere, including a woman. And you're right, it's just raw libido.

[DrDominator9]

As one of the writers here who spends so much of his efforts in the Dungeon section, sometimes developing lengthy situations of non-consent, I have questioned myself on more than one occasion about the effects my stories may have had on people. Yes, they are fantasy but my style is to try to write them as realistically as possible and stay away from the campiness where I can. That said, I wonder if my work serves as a safety valve for those people on the edge of things, letting them enjoy non-consent in a safe way so that they don't feel the need to "wander off the reservation" as it were and commit real acts of carnage in real life. Or do the stories stoke the fires? I guess I hope for the former and pray against the latter. Perhaps one could say I should play it safe and not write about non-consent at all and thus be a better writer and person because of that. But that seems like a censorship of my own creativity and that's a slippery path as well. Just some heavy thoughts on a Monday afternoon.