Is Wonder Woman the real bad guy?

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Mr. X
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Is Wonder Woman the real bad guy?

Post by Mr. X »



This guy brings up some good points with Injustice the games and the comics. Clark kind of has motivation. But WTF is Diana doing? So she just tosses every principle? In a way SHE is the voice whispering in Clark's ear telling him to oppress humanity. Is SHE the real bad guy in Injustice?

Same thing goes for Flash Point. I get the flash went back in time and altered history BUT Diana was Diana well before Flashpoint yet she becomes a harpy who has an affair, murders Aquaman's wife and strangles Steve Trevor AND murders a bunch of children.

It seems odd that Wonder Woman has gotten a lot of bastardized versions of herself that don't make sense. Last good game depiction I've seen of her was the Justice League vs Mortal Combat cross over. And its odd that these games completely desexualize her. The first Injustice game she looks like China from WWE. Second she looks pretty harsh and angry. But they sex up Black Canary and Harley and even the other girls in Injustice 1 look pretty good. In the mortal combat game they gave Katana breast jiggle.
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Re: Is Wonder Woman the real bad guy?

Post by NotUv2 »

Mr. X wrote: 3 months agoIt seems odd that Wonder Woman has gotten a lot of bastardized versions of herself that don't make sense.
I think the video hits the nail on the head with what seems to have happened with Injustice: the writers not really knowing what to do with WW and just making her a plot device instead of an actual character. Some of the other more awkward outings seem to be about just inverting her whole character and having her act the opposite of her values for shock points (cf. Flashpoint Wonder Woman, Nazi Wonder Woman, Crime Syndicate Wonder Woman).
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Re: Is Wonder Woman the real bad guy?

Post by lionbadger »

Mr. X wrote: 3 months ago And its odd that these games completely desexualize her. The first Injustice game she looks like China from WWE. Second she looks pretty harsh and angry. But they sex up Black Canary and Harley and even the other girls in Injustice 1 look pretty good. In the mortal combat game they gave Katana breast jiggle.
hazard a guess that they are following some art direction/approval process? It's a bit pointless for someone to get pissy at MK for sexualisation when people are being sawn in half left right and centre and with the other characters you mention there must have been something external pushing for a dour WW (unless the MK design team literally view WW as a sterotypical greek guy who is dipping is toe in the trans debate).
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Re: Is Wonder Woman the real bad guy?

Post by Damselbinder »

It's one of the reasons I don't think the "hero turns evil" storyline ever really works that well. Unless it's been carefully, painstakingly, psychologically-mindedly plotted out for a particular character over a long period of time, it is never plausible for a superhero to 'turn evil' in the way that comic book characters do. People just don't do that. They have psychotic breakdowns, they may commit A crime in the heat of the moment, but they're not suddenly going to start murdering people or setting up fascist states on a dime.
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Re: Is Wonder Woman the real bad guy?

Post by Mr. X »

Yes it seems Wonder Woman is up for anything. "Save people... ok" "Murder and oppress people... color me there." "fight for justice... ok" "Enslave humanity... count me in".

At least with Dr. Fate they explain order wanted Brainiac to win cause he was bringing order to a chaotic world.

Would have been cool is WW was actually possessed by Aires or some such entity trying to break up humanity.

As of late I've seen her more like Goku. He doesn't really care all that much about right or wrong, he just wants to fight. So it could be the same with her. She just wants to fight.

I've heard this idea of X triggering bad events called the Aires phenomena. If it wasn't for Hitler there would be no WW2 which is wrong. Same here. One act from Joker triggers this whole collapse which seems absurd.
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Re: Is Wonder Woman the real bad guy?

Post by Damselbinder »

Mr. X wrote: 3 months ago Yes it seems Wonder Woman is up for anything. "Save people... ok" "Murder and oppress people... color me there." "fight for justice... ok" "Enslave humanity... count me in".

At least with Dr. Fate they explain order wanted Brainiac to win cause he was bringing order to a chaotic world.

Would have been cool is WW was actually possessed by Aires or some such entity trying to break up humanity.

As of late I've seen her more like Goku. He doesn't really care all that much about right or wrong, he just wants to fight. So it could be the same with her. She just wants to fight.

I've heard this idea of X triggering bad events called the Aires phenomena. If it wasn't for Hitler there would be no WW2 which is wrong. Same here. One act from Joker triggers this whole collapse which seems absurd.
For an Elseworlds tale or something, like a completely original continuity, I suppose that could be an interesting take. Wonder Woman as Conan the Barbarian, rather than the Arthurian-champion she normally is. But it'd be strange to start doing that with existing versions of the character.
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Re: Is Wonder Woman the real bad guy?

Post by Femina »

Injustice is stupid... so like... you can't trust ANY characterizations there. It's sorta haphazardly delineates characters down party lines in order to force a conflict. It makes for a bitchin Mortal Kombat style fighting game sure... but it doesn't make for a storyline that's very true to the character. It never has... which is only futher reason why Zack Snyder working SO HARD to turn Justice League into a prologue to Injustice is just stupid.

It's stupid.
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Re: Is Wonder Woman the real bad guy?

Post by Dazzle1 »

Outside of this genre, I want my Wonder Woman to be the ones from the Comics. The strong, most moral member of the Justice League.
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Re: Is Wonder Woman the real bad guy?

Post by Disciple »

Dazzle1 wrote: 3 months ago Outside of this genre, I want my Wonder Woman to be the ones from the Comics. The strong, most moral member of the Justice League.
Okay, this? This right here?

is why I think the idea of a "shared" DC universe is stupid to begin with. Unlike Marvel's heroes, Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman et al. weren't created with the intent of interacting with one another - hell, most of the time their creators didn't even know each other professionally. One- or two-off crossovers might be good for novelty value (akin to a hypothetical Sherlock Holmes Meets 007 story), but if they have to interact with each other on a regular basis, you end up having to warp one (or more) heroes out-of-character just so they have something to argue over.

Every DC hero was created to be the "most moral" character in their own setting. If they have to compete with each other, someone's going to get dumped on. In practice it's usually Wonder Woman, possibly because writers see her as the most "expendable" member of the team to begin with - you already have Superman for all your primary-color flying brick needs, why have someone else doing the same thing, just in heels?

(And God help you if someone decides Captain Mar... err, Shazam, who also has the same general powerset plus the Greek God background, should also be on the team.)
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Re: Is Wonder Woman the real bad guy?

Post by Damselbinder »

Disciple wrote: 3 months ago
Dazzle1 wrote: 3 months ago Outside of this genre, I want my Wonder Woman to be the ones from the Comics. The strong, most moral member of the Justice League.
Okay, this? This right here?

is why I think the idea of a "shared" DC universe is stupid to begin with. Unlike Marvel's heroes, Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman et al. weren't created with the intent of interacting with one another - hell, most of the time their creators didn't even know each other professionally. One- or two-off crossovers might be good for novelty value (akin to a hypothetical Sherlock Holmes Meets 007 story), but if they have to interact with each other on a regular basis, you end up having to warp one (or more) heroes out-of-character just so they have something to argue over.

Every DC hero was created to be the "most moral" character in their own setting. If they have to compete with each other, someone's going to get dumped on. In practice it's usually Wonder Woman, possibly because writers see her as the most "expendable" member of the team to begin with - you already have Superman for all your primary-color flying brick needs, why have someone else doing the same thing, just in heels?

(And God help you if someone decides Captain Mar... err, Shazam, who also has the same general powerset plus the Greek God background, should also be on the team.)
I think there is much to be said for keeping superheroes in their own little worlds. Marvel's X-Men, for instance, are treated strangely considering how much people celebrate the Fantastic Four in-universe. Still, I think at this point there have been enough memorable Justice League stories that it would be hard to argue against EVER having shared universes. I think it is more than possible to write a bunch of characters all of whom are equally virtuous where there is still conflict because of the other variables. Batman is (let's say for the sake of argument) as good a person as Superman, but Batman is also paranoid, secretive, suspicious and unsociable. Wonder Woman is a paragon in her own way, but she has - or certainly can be written to have - a moral code that doesn't quite gel with the modern world. The problems of which you speak certainly exist. It would just be a shame to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
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Re: Is Wonder Woman the real bad guy?

Post by NotUv2 »

What with the concept of the Justice League dating back to the early 1960s, I think the ship has sailed on keeping heroes siloed away in their own little universes. Especially since if you have two heroes with comics published by the same company, eventually your readers are going to start clamoring to know either a) which one would win in a fight or b) how awesome it would be if they teamed up. Ultimately how superhero teams come to be in the first place and I expect it's a really hard temptation for companies to avoid.

But yeah, while Wonder Woman has distinct enough powers to be her own person, she overlaps pretty heavily with other heroes, more or less so depending on which arbitrary setting Superman's power level is at (is he a Flying Brick or is he Super-Everything right down to Super-Knitting Powers or at some point between?). There is also the baggage of so many different versions of WW over the decades, from being a pretty frank icon of bondage kink to being an icon of female empowerment, multiple different origin stories, a nonpowered interlude with Diana as a Sixties action-girl heroine... and is she a calm ambassador? Worldly warrior? Naive innocent? Some combination of these? It must be really tough to write her for mainstream publication.
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Re: Is Wonder Woman the real bad guy?

Post by Mr. X »

Yes the silliness of the Justice League is Batman is fighting heavy weights like Darkseid and cosmic entities then has trouble with the Joker and exploding penguins.
In JL War Darkseid punches batman.... he should be hamburger at that point.

I also think its "cheap" entertainment to take classic good characters and just make them evil instead of writing excellent villain characters.
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Re: Is Wonder Woman the real bad guy?

Post by Damselbinder »

Mr. X wrote: 3 months ago Yes the silliness of the Justice League is Batman is fighting heavy weights like Darkseid and cosmic entities then has trouble with the Joker and exploding penguins.
In JL War Darkseid punches batman.... he should be hamburger at that point.

I also think its "cheap" entertainment to take classic good characters and just make them evil instead of writing excellent villain characters.
Agreed - unless it's a deliberately cheesy 'mirror universe' thing. Those are fun.
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Re: Is Wonder Woman the real bad guy?

Post by Femina »

Yes and I mean... look, Injustice's STORY is stupid.... but it serves the purpose of pitting the DC universe against each other in a fighting game. I don't mean to knock THAT aspect of it or anything... I only really object to the idea of taking those characterizations and attempting to make them the baseline... ordinarily my advisement would have been 'hey DON'T WORRY about how poorly WW's characterization comes off in Injustice, that game is nonsense and everyone knows it, they just wanna have WW fight the Flash for fun!"

It's just that then Snyder started making movies and keeps threatening to make Injustice the most recognizable form of these characters... which is, as previously noted... stupid.
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Re: Is Wonder Woman the real bad guy?

Post by argento »

It is that the player of the video game, does not have to know the story of Wonder Woman. Diana is a fighter, who has to win the fight.That is one of the reasons why She was desexualized.
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Re: Is Wonder Woman the real bad guy?

Post by Mr. X »

One iteration of Wonder Woman I could buy into is the Red Son version where she bought into the ideals of communism. But she didn't become a harpy in that one. She just had misplaced ideals.
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Re: Is Wonder Woman the real bad guy?

Post by argento »

Mr. X wrote: 3 months ago One iteration of Wonder Woman I could buy into is the Red Son version where she bought into the ideals of communism. But she didn't become a harpy in that one. She just had misplaced ideals.
Yes, that's right!She fell in love with Clark, but when she realized he was a dictator she left.
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Re: Is Wonder Woman the real bad guy?

Post by Evil Spider »

Mr. X wrote: 3 months agoIn the mortal combat game they gave Katana breast jiggle.
Kitana is very hot indeed and so is Jade from Mortal Kombat game. Mileena is a sexy mutant hybrid clone of Kitana, my venomous spidersenses are tingling very hard for her, you just need to see her pretty smile behind her mask to know why!
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