Balancing Story with Peril?

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Artee
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Right, so I've been having this...problem with my stories - it takes too damn long to get to the action, or at least I feel that way.

I feel there needs to be some balance between establishing the character as a hero, through doing heroic stuff like beating bad guys up, defeating crime rings, etc and not losing, so it tastes all the better when they eventually lose and face the consequences of their defeat.

The question is: What's a good balance between story and peril/sexual content and which do you personally prefer?

Quick, punchy stories that cut right to the action? Stories like Heroine Transformations, Batgirl Seduced, the Fuchsia Fox stories?

Or perhaps you prefer long, drawn-out plotlines like Pariah: New Arrival (and Void's other stories) and Perils of Valora 3?

Of course, then comes the issue of fanfiction (using already-established characters like Batgirl and Wonder Woman, versus original characters like the aforementioned Pariah, Fuchsia Fox and Valora. Naturally fanfiction tends to cut to the action sooner as we all already know their histories, powers while we don't really know Pariah's past, Fuchsia Fox's powers unless the author explicitly mentions or shows them.

Sorry for the convoluted thoughts, I'm not very sure about this, or about posting this in the first place - sounds a little weird to discuss this when I don't really know what my stand is in the first place.
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Abductorenmadrid
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I suspect that in general people want to cut to the chase. I have been writing stories where things build to the peril - and in general "they don't sell well". It might be that it is my style that puts people off, or, the peril isnt "sexual" enough when it arrives, or any number of things, but in general, I think it's just my plot arcs are of the slow variety and that is the source of my low popularity. However, I like the challenge of writing a mystery or having a good twist over just writing straight off sex scenes or peril porn - I don't think I can change what I write.

Maybe you could experiment - with some "one off" heroines if you dont want to risk an established character - and see how it goes, both in terms of writing and in response.
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tallyho
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Well you could have the action start it and then intersperse with flashback or memory for exposition.

I am about to do something along those lines in my next chapter for my Devil May Cry story, where it will start with SG fighting 2 killer robots and then have her thinking on how the hell she let herself get in this mess. But the exposition is in small installments with the battle going on as it unfolds.
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Abductorenmadrid wrote:
4 years ago
I suspect that in general people want to cut to the chase. I have been writing stories where things build to the peril - and in general "they don't sell well". It might be that it is my style that puts people off, or, the peril isnt "sexual" enough when it arrives, or any number of things, but in general, I think it's just my plot arcs are of the slow variety and that is the source of my low popularity. However, I like the challenge of writing a mystery or having a good twist over just writing straight off sex scenes or peril porn - I don't think I can change what I write.
Yeah, I feel there's a certain time investment demanded by longer stories regardless of the quality, and to be honest sometimes I skip to the sex scene to see how it looks before continuing to the plot :P

But yeah, writing longer stories is just more...fun I guess? I don't know if it's more challenging, as a shorter story demands better skills at summarising and at cutting out needless scenes, skills I don't possess. But yeah, it's surely more fun for the writer, but maybe not for the reader. Hmm.
Abductorenmadrid wrote:
4 years ago
Maybe you could experiment - with some "one off" heroines if you dont want to risk an established character - and see how it goes, both in terms of writing and in response.
Yeah that sounds like a great idea, thanks for your input!
tallyho wrote:
4 years ago
Well you could have the action start it and then intersperse with flashback or memory for exposition.

I am about to do something along those lines in my next chapter for my Devil May Cry story, where it will start with SG fighting 2 killer robots and then have her thinking on how the hell she let herself get in this mess. But the exposition is in small installments with the battle going on as it unfolds.
I don't personally see myself writing this way, as I feel fight scenes should be quick, fast and decisive rather than filled with paragraphs where the characters spend half the time thinking of something and not throwing punches, though often I don't really follow my own 'rules'. Just sounds a little weird to me, but I'll be interested to see how you pull it off.
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Great topic. I agree that in general, most people want to cut to the chase (with "the chase" being the reader's particular main interest). But I agree with your point that the heroine needs to be established and built up, or she's just a punching bag and not much of a heroine. In the end, I'd say write what you want to write. I ultimately did that, knowing that the audience would be much smaller, but enjoying the process more as I felt I was being true to myself. I tried to describe my story once as a poor man's Wonder Woman TV show from the 80s, where my heroine spends much of the story out of her superheroine guise, and when she is a superheroine, she wins more than she loses, but every now and then someone gets the better of her. I think that also makes the heroine's appearances more awe-inducing to the other characters in the story.
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tallyho
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I wasnt talking about paragraphs interspersing the action but the odd line here or there that allows the reader to fill in how she got here and collectively builds up the situation by drip feeding it into the story. It's nothing I have invented it's a common practice
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So something like this.
" Batgirl dodged beneath the swinging fist of the first goon and heard the satisfying thud of it hitting the wall behind her. As she rose she brought up her right fist into the jaw of goon2 sending him reeling back into goon3. Great. Shame about goons 4,5 and 6 now closing in on her. Dammit! She cursed her naivety as she dodged yet another swinging fist and landed a sweet kick of her own. An anonymous tip off was nearly always gonna be a trap! She just -"oof"! - bit slow getting out of the way of that one Barbara, you are gonna have to do better than that- didn't anticipate so many goons. She swept a low roundhouse into two more that knocked them back into their companions, buying her some breathing space. She used it to punch the lights out of the guy who had hit the wall. One down 5 to go. What sorta snitch would ring the Commissioners office anyhow, rather than just a police hotline? Yep- "Ahhh!" - she cried as punch caught her ribs- all the " Take THAT!" she felled another with a low kick to his genitals and a clubbing blow to his neck when he doubled up - hey fighting fair was relative when outnumbered 6 to 1 - signs were there. Yep, it was a dumb play on her part. Yet - she ducked a haymaker- she had just been unable to resist answering the phone in her dad's empty office. So now - duck, roll, parry, punch , parry kick - 4 down- she found herself here"

I just wrote all that off the cuff but you get the idea it completely does away with the need for a scene of her getting a tip off in her fathers office and I personally dont think it detracts from the fight but just puts you there in her shoes
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Damselbinder

I think it's a question of what you intend to do with your story. I'm grateful, btw, to be namedropped here. It's true, for much of Valora I've written her to be all but invincible in combat so that when something perilous happens it really kicks.

But, also, I write long-form stories because I see myself as having stories to tell. I want to tell the story of Valerie Orville. Peril is a part of it, but it's nowhere near all of it. Maybe that enhances the peril, maybe it doesn't, but I find peril more appealing when it's about a PERSON that I find attractive, not just "hot lady in catsuit."
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As a well-known creator of definitely long-form stories, I offer what might be a surprising take on things here. Short form stories can be beautiful when well-done. And there in lies the rub; it's rare to find a well written long-form story. Too many writers just want to "get to the good stuff" as Vladi put it once in his admonition to write well for his story contests at Wizard's Lair.

Sure, everyone enjoys the peril and sex scenes in SHIP, that's why we all visit here: to see such images and read such scenes. But there needs to be at least a modicum (no pun intended) of character building before a viewer or reader can invest the full amount of his interest in the heroine or hero (equal opportunity author here) being abused.

Now, with a known heroine like Wonder Woman or Supergirl or Batgirl, there's less foundation building necessary, of course. But even there you want to create some sort of new dilemma that hasn't been used countless times in other stories. Yes, you can start off with a bank robbery to draw the heroine there but wouldn't it be better if there was something really unique that happens that makes the story or video suddenly amazing rather than the same old same old?

But having creative and new dilemmas is only part of the issue with long versus short stories. You can create excellent character moments in a short story that quickly define the character. Behavior that is distinctly memorable can do it in just a sentence or two. An example might help here:

Mighty Teen caught the arrow with a instant surge of her right arm. The point quivered inches from her cheek as she looked at Bowman with a smirk. "That's as close as you'll ever get to having your shaft held by me, ya' loser! Give it up. You're going down. And not in a good way." Now, clearly that's a very camp version of how to make a heroine memorable very quickly but the point is valid. You can make short stories dramatic and memorable with good writing.

One more thing, you can build strong characters in a long form story by having short, easily digestible chapters. Some people get frustrated by that though so you run a risk of losing readers there. That's my take on the topic for now. More later if I think of new suggestions.
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Bert

Some of us have goldfish levels of attention span and are incapable of long form stories.

I think writing stories has to be about what makes the writer happy. Sure it's great if people respond to it, but unless you're doing this professionally why would you take away from your own enjoyment by writing to an audience? I say tell your stories in the way that is most fun and rewarding for you.
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Except there’s a reason people decide to share. Everyone is searching for an audience. Yet only some stories find an audience. This forum is littered with dead tales. I wonder why that is?
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I have written mostly longer pieces, but I do a lot of humor to it also. Not everyone can hold an audience’s attention with just their wit and pen. Something I did in a Penelope Pitstop story that worked well was to start out in the Villain’s head and go from there.

The Hooded Claw was fantasizing about all the perverse and evil things he had already put the heroine through while jerking off under his desk. It introduced the character, gave his motivation and let the reader have an early taste before the main action even started.

The problem with a lot of the Genre is that most of it is tough to read. And your best hope is to engage them quick with what they are there for without giving up on making a complete story. While you want to write the story for yourself, you also want it to appeal to a larger audience.
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Bert

There's a vast array of tastes out there. Longer stories can be popular, but it depends on what readers are looking for. I started reading a story here last year and waded through 10,000 words before there was any action at all, and that was just a brief skirmish. To me that's really, really boring, but another reader might thrill to that amount of buildup. The thing is, the writer obviously wanted to create a world and spend time filling out the characters. That's his or her prerogative. Is a shorter, less involved story that gets more views a better story? Not necessarily. Maybe fewer people invest the time in reading a long story, but maybe they end up getting more enjoyment from it.

When I shared a couple stories last year I certainly didn't do it with the expectation that many people would read them. I shared because I hoped to get a bit of feedback about whether it was worth the effort of writing them. I did receive some feedback, and I am slowly doing some more writing now. But what I write is what I like to read. I mean, we're talking about maybe a few dozen readers here, or perhaps a little more. Write what makes you happy.
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Bert wrote:
4 years ago
There's a vast array of tastes out there. Longer stories can be popular, but it depends on what readers are looking for. I started reading a story here last year and waded through 10,000 words before there was any action at all, and that was just a brief skirmish. To me that's really, really boring...
LOL - I think that must have been one of mine!
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Abductorenmadrid wrote:
4 years ago
Bert wrote:
4 years ago
There's a vast array of tastes out there. Longer stories can be popular, but it depends on what readers are looking for. I started reading a story here last year and waded through 10,000 words before there was any action at all, and that was just a brief skirmish. To me that's really, really boring...
LOL - I think that must have been one of mine!
Could definitely have been one of mine too.
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That is why I put a sex scene in my stories every fourth page or less. I'm so paranoid about losing a single reader!! :D
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Abductorenmadrid
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Damselbinder wrote:
4 years ago
Abductorenmadrid wrote:
4 years ago
Bert wrote:
4 years ago
There's a vast array of tastes out there. Longer stories can be popular, but it depends on what readers are looking for. I started reading a story here last year and waded through 10,000 words before there was any action at all, and that was just a brief skirmish. To me that's really, really boring...
LOL - I think that must have been one of mine!
Could definitely have been one of mine too.
Sorry Damselbinder, I wasn't trying to steal your fame as being the most "boring" writer here - seriously though - I am glad I am not alone in wanting to create a world rather than going straight for the quick fix, so kudos to you for that, I mean it.
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There is no correct balance. Every single person who reads your story will have a different idea of the correct balance, just as each writer will have their own opinion of the correct balance, or even just their own opinion of what they believe their readers are looking for as that balance...

It's better not to think about it if you ask me, write what you want to write, read what you want to read. In time the readers looking for a similar balance will find you, and vice versa. Looking for a quick fix? Lots of that around! Looking for something deeper and long form. Lots of that around. Looking for something with enormous set up time and one explosive payoff? Some of that even. Looking for camp with heroines tripping over their own boots so a random thug can stumble across and have her? More of that than I like.
Bert

Abductorenmadrid wrote:
4 years ago
Damselbinder wrote:
4 years ago
Abductorenmadrid wrote:
4 years ago
Bert wrote:
4 years ago
There's a vast array of tastes out there. Longer stories can be popular, but it depends on what readers are looking for. I started reading a story here last year and waded through 10,000 words before there was any action at all, and that was just a brief skirmish. To me that's really, really boring...
LOL - I think that must have been one of mine!
Could definitely have been one of mine too.
Sorry Damselbinder, I wasn't trying to steal your fame as being the most "boring" writer here - seriously though - I am glad I am not alone in wanting to create a world rather than going straight for the quick fix, so kudos to you for that, I mean it.
Sigh. :huh: You guys conveniently failed to quote the rest of that thought - "but another reader might thrill to that amount of buildup. The thing is, the writer obviously wanted to create a world and spend time filling out the characters. That's his or her prerogative." And - "Maybe fewer people invest the time in reading a long story, but maybe they end up getting more enjoyment from it."

And all of that was in service of my main point, which is to write what makes you happy. Obviously, people who write long form tales derive satisfaction from it, and clearly there is an audience for that. I also mentioned that I have a goldfish level attention span, so consider the source.

In conclusion, I think I was very nice about how I called he/she's story boring, so fuck you guys! :laugh:
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Abductorenmadrid
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Bert wrote:
4 years ago
Abductorenmadrid wrote:
4 years ago
Damselbinder wrote:
4 years ago
Abductorenmadrid wrote:
4 years ago
Bert wrote:
4 years ago
There's a vast array of tastes out there. Longer stories can be popular, but it depends on what readers are looking for. I started reading a story here last year and waded through 10,000 words before there was any action at all, and that was just a brief skirmish. To me that's really, really boring...
LOL - I think that must have been one of mine!
Could definitely have been one of mine too.
Sorry Damselbinder, I wasn't trying to steal your fame as being the most "boring" writer here - seriously though - I am glad I am not alone in wanting to create a world rather than going straight for the quick fix, so kudos to you for that, I mean it.
Sigh. :huh: You guys conveniently failed to quote the rest of that thought - "but another reader might thrill to that amount of buildup. The thing is, the writer obviously wanted to create a world and spend time filling out the characters. That's his or her prerogative." And - "Maybe fewer people invest the time in reading a long story, but maybe they end up getting more enjoyment from it."

And all of that was in service of my main point, which is to write what makes you happy. Obviously, people who write long form tales derive satisfaction from it, and clearly there is an audience for that. I also mentioned that I have a goldfish level attention span, so consider the source.



In conclusion, I think I was very nice about how I called he/she's story boring, so fuck you guys! :laugh:
Apologies Bert - I never meant to intentionally misquote anyone - this was entirely self deprecating humour on my part and nothing more. I am all good with your valid opinion and I am generally happy being in my niche as a "slow build-up writer". :D
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Bert

Oh jeez, I thought I was clear that that was all tongue-in-cheek mock outrage!
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Bert wrote:
4 years ago
Oh jeez, I thought I was clear that that was all tongue-in-cheek mock outrage!
Dammit !! LOL How dare you not unsee my hidden obvious stealth faux-rage! So confused - I am going back to bed ...
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Bert

Good reply. And so brief! ;)
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Artee wrote:
4 years ago
Right, so I've been having this...problem with my stories - it takes too damn long to get to the action, or at least I feel that way.

I feel there needs to be some balance between establishing the character as a hero, through doing heroic stuff like beating bad guys up, defeating crime rings, etc and not losing, so it tastes all the better when they eventually lose and face the consequences of their defeat.

The question is: What's a good balance between story and peril/sexual content and which do you personally prefer?

Quick, punchy stories that cut right to the action? Stories like Heroine Transformations, Batgirl Seduced, the Fuchsia Fox stories?

Or perhaps you prefer long, drawn-out plotlines like Pariah: New Arrival (and Void's other stories) and Perils of Valora 3?

Of course, then comes the issue of fanfiction (using already-established characters like Batgirl and Wonder Woman, versus original characters like the aforementioned Pariah, Fuchsia Fox and Valora. Naturally fanfiction tends to cut to the action sooner as we all already know their histories, powers while we don't really know Pariah's past, Fuchsia Fox's powers unless the author explicitly mentions or shows them.

Sorry for the convoluted thoughts, I'm not very sure about this, or about posting this in the first place - sounds a little weird to discuss this when I don't really know what my stand is in the first place.
And this is why I suffer from writer's block. I get too caught up in this very thought process and thus takes me forever to get a story done.
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Artee
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On mobile so I can't really reply to everything, but I personally believe that while we SHOULD write what we want to read, improvement is also important so you can continue writing what your target audience wants to read. Shorter stories tend to be able to receive better, frequent feedback compared to longer stories that the reviewer may have forgotten his/her criticism by the time he/she reaches the end.

I think that's something that could be important but I'm not sure if it's mentioned here.
Bert

That's interesting. I don't know if the Doc's current Invisible Woman story is a long one or not, but he's presenting it in short, catchy chapters and I find that quite effective.
Damselbinder

I think the way I'd think about it is this.

When I take into account what my audience would want to see, I never let that decide what plot I'm going to write, or about whom, or what the meaning in any given story is going to be. So even if I think my readers will prefer short stories, well gosh-darn-it I can't write the stories I want to tell in a short space. Or you might be writing a story about Wonder Woman getting sleeping gassed over and over again or something, and people say "mate it's really samey" - okay, fair, but maybe you just really, really, really want to do that WW gassed story. In which case, either you're writing that, or you're not writing at all.

Now, I may nevertheless think "okay, given that I'm writing the story I'm writing - what are readers going to care about?" So that might influence the mix of perils I include, or to whom I subject them, or might cause me to leave out or take focus away from a subplot that I might find fun, but that the audience seems not to be too interested in. I might, if I see certain characters being responded to positively, beef up their role a bit provided it doesn't mess with the main story at all.

Imaginably, the audience might spot more major problems that I hadn't, of course. They might let me know that a character I'd intended to be very important to the story isn't all that great - that happened to Aerogirl back when I was writing Enhancegirl. I'd intended her to be very important, but it was pointed out to me that she wasn't all that interesting, and I dialled back on her, and eventually just wrote her out entirely so the cast wouldn't be too crowded.

But then again, sanity isn't statistical. Your audience might be wrong, and you might be right.
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It depends a bit, but in general I do prefer stories where things are established and built up to, not just a hard "wham bam thank you m'am" sort of deal.
Having said that, as mentioned by others, fanfic does tend to let you build a bit of a connection and pull you in faster due to people already having a relationship with the characters and knowing a lot of the details.

I've noticed on other sites too that a lot of people do seem to go for the quick fix though, whether it's emotional catharsis or other types of climaxes.

Personally, if given a choice, 9 times out of 10 I'd prefer a genuinely well written story where the peril and it's consequence comes along as a natural consequence of the characters action and not one that's obviously rushed to get to the "pay off" (the 10th time is when I'm rushed to get to the pay-off).
Damselbinder

Mlod wrote:
4 years ago
It depends a bit, but in general I do prefer stories where things are established and built up to, not just a hard "wham bam thank you m'am" sort of deal.
Having said that, as mentioned by others, fanfic does tend to let you build a bit of a connection and pull you in faster due to people already having a relationship with the characters and knowing a lot of the details.

I've noticed on other sites too that a lot of people do seem to go for the quick fix though, whether it's emotional catharsis or other types of climaxes.

Personally, if given a choice, 9 times out of 10 I'd prefer a genuinely well written story where the peril and it's consequence comes along as a natural consequence of the characters action and not one that's obviously rushed to get to the "pay off" (the 10th time is when I'm rushed to get to the pay-off).
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Damselbinder wrote:
4 years ago

Imaginably, the audience might spot more major problems that I hadn't, of course. They might let me know that a character I'd intended to be very important to the story isn't all that great - that happened to Aerogirl back when I was writing Enhancegirl. I'd intended her to be very important, but it was pointed out to me that she wasn't all that interesting, and I dialled back on her, and eventually just wrote her out entirely so the cast wouldn't be too crowded.

But then again, sanity isn't statistical. Your audience might be wrong, and you might be right.
Oh no, is that what happened to Aerogirl? I really adored her in Parts 6-10, and hoped we’d be seeing a lot more of her. Maybe she’s off somewhere with Ocelot, pretending she still hates it when the thief ties her up and defeats her in the bedroom yet again.
Damselbinder

Ericc15 wrote:
2 years ago
Damselbinder wrote:
4 years ago

Imaginably, the audience might spot more major problems that I hadn't, of course. They might let me know that a character I'd intended to be very important to the story isn't all that great - that happened to Aerogirl back when I was writing Enhancegirl. I'd intended her to be very important, but it was pointed out to me that she wasn't all that interesting, and I dialled back on her, and eventually just wrote her out entirely so the cast wouldn't be too crowded.

But then again, sanity isn't statistical. Your audience might be wrong, and you might be right.
Oh no, is that what happened to Aerogirl? I really adored her in Parts 6-10, and hoped we’d be seeing a lot more of her. Maybe she’s off somewhere with Ocelot, pretending she still hates it when the thief ties her up and defeats her in the bedroom yet again.
Ah well, that's kind. I did give her a brief cameo in the final story to sort of let people know that she was alright.
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Write what you want to read.

I write because most of the people writing superheroine in peril porn are guys. There are a lot of amazing male writers out there, and I do not in any way want to make this a dis against them. However they are also writing what they want to read.

When you write the story of a fox hunt, both foxes and hounds love the tale, and hang on every word of it. They may even share many common favorite tales, but at the end of the day, those who know themselves as hounds see the story from the hounds point of view, and those who know themselves to be foxes see the same common scenes differently.

There are things that the hounds really want that aren't really all that catchy for foxes, and some things that really work on foxes seem irrelevant to the hounds. There are also things the hounds think are just awesome that make the foxes just sigh and stop reading, their good time ruined. It may be a superior story, a 10/10 for every reading hound, since I am a fox, that won't really help me any.

So I write what I want to read. There a tons better authors on this site, sadly most of them are old hounds, love their work, but they are not really writing for foxes, just about foxes.

As one of those foxes, I need the story. I need to emotionally invest in the characters, in the struggle. I need to see myself as the fox, to know the fox is strong and clever, is fast and agile, and absolutely knows it can beat any number of hounds and never get caught. Only then can the peril really touch me.

Please don't get me wrong. I masturbate writing these, masturbate reading these. Women are no less sexual beings than men, it isn't that we don't want the sex scenes it is that when you dumb down the foxes too much there isn't room for us to fit into them. When you cut right to the chase, we haven't had time to make that sweet little fox our own and we just can't get that into it.

Then there is the problem of plot. If I want my superheroine to go through a long series of steps to be broken down, there has to be a reason to move along between incidents to progress along the path. Plus, if she doesn't put up a struggle the whole way, and not remind us she is a threat, it's kind of easy to forget she is a superheroine, and then the power kind of fades. For me it is always about the taming, that is what gets me off. The journey from superheroine to submissive slut is the part that gets me.

Before that descent, and after rock bottom, I don't really care. All my writing will be found on that slippery downslope. All the sex bits, the action bits, and the character internal dialogue bits are part of that slope, and if I can't keep myself captivated to keep writing the whole thing, I will just quit. So you get to see, what I stayed interested long enough to record.
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Overlord
Overlord
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Joined: 10 years ago
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The balance between story and action is a personal choice. you are your number one reader. I enjoy writing the parts of the story that lead the character from one part of the adventure to the other. I also know that when reading a story, it has to be well written for me to go through a lot of plot to "get to the good stuff".

If you aren't having a good time writing it, maybe you need to cut away at it. I have started to write more Vignettes, so I don't need to create a big plot to carry a story. For example I have written a full story with Lady Peasoup taking on Batgirl. It was fun to write, and is a complete story, but really took months to do. When I wanted to write about Lady Prudence getting Batgirl in the Dungeon of Fogg Place, I really just cut to the chase and wrote the gloating villainess and the description of the peril. I've done the same with other perils, Lotus and the oil vat and Nora Clavicle going one on one with Batgirl. I am sure there are people that say they would prefer a whole story and other that are happy just for the shorty.

One of the hardest parts of editing is cutting what doesn't belong. Nothing worse than reading what you wrote and saying it doesn't work. One of the advantages of writing a story about Batgirl or some other heroine is that you don't have to do a lot of world building in the story. The villain of the week doesn't have to explain why they aren't going to just shoot Batgirl , Supergirl or WW and dump the body. It is something the reader already understands about the characters. Catwoman already is the readers mind of how she looks and how she acts, so you can just pick it up from there.

My OC stories tend to be much bigger projects, but is some ways, they are more interesting to write, because I get to create the rules for them. Bridgett Bonds is a rock singer and the villains have to trick her into situations where her life is in danger. Danger Babe is a crime fighter, and her Evil Crime Lord step-aunt has put a million dollar bounty on her head, but only if she get killed in a perversely sexual death trap. I get more to set the rules, for the universe, but it is a bigger investment of writing.
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