Is the heroine hardcore genre fading?

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Dogfish
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vadimfv wrote:I wanted to respond to Dogfish: I understand what you say about second-wave feminism being against pornography, but that is not entirely the case. I think it was mainly an extreme anti-porn segment of 2nd Wave (your Andrea Dworkin types) who were against porn. Among the second wave, you also had your pro-porn types, such as Camille Paglia (who is now 68...definitively 2nd wave). You even had your extreme performance artists in the 1980s, who used sex, violence, bondage and body fluids to convey their art and messages (such as Karen Finley or Lydia Lunch), bridging the gap, in some ways, to the 3rd wave, the basic texts of which (such as bell hooks 'feminism is for everybody') were just starting to bubble at the time. And women's issues were clear-cut back then: things like equal pay, abortion rights, and so on. I think movements like riot grrl (zines/music/self-defense, etc.) which allowed the young Gen-X women license to explore their bodies and rights in every manner imaginable, drew the final dividing line between 2nd and 3rd wave.

The third-wave is a lot different. Because of more political correctness, extreme anarcho/leftism, intersectionalism, anti-globalism, and the explosion of gender studies depts on campuses (2nd wave feminists didn't grow up with any of that)...the number of "issues" that a third-wave feminist could worry about has exploded..on the one hand everything from racism to economic inequality to police brutality..and on the other hand to the likes of FGM and worldwide girls' education, etc., which are all technically valid concerns. But because of the wide fractionalization of issues, there are a lot of issues they address which just seem childish and silly compared to the big picture (like whether comics and games are too sexy)..and that's where you get your Anita Sarkeesians and the like, and then you finally end up with the MTV cunts like Franchesca Ramsey and Laci Green who try to inculcate impressionable Youtube kids with untruths like white people are always bad and privleged, people of colour can never be racist, First World micro-aggressions are so damn important (god forbid you should criticize a 3rd wave feminist on Twitter, you'll get doxxed or banned) and plenty of other bullshit that never had anything to do with feminism before.

Sure, there are plenty of sex-positive 3rd wave feminists..but I think they parse the issues in minute ways that could still result in plenty of attacks against porn. For example, they wouldn't want to ban the entire porn industry (that would eliminate the lesbian-porn-for-lesbians category) but they might want to make it "safer" with lots of regulations to "protect" women (hence this Weinstein bullshit). They also might want to increasingly ban certain types of porn that they feel are specifically exploitative, whether it's a forced-sex scene or really almost forced-anything scene (which a whole lot of porn includes, including SHIP) or they even might want to go so far as to discourage porn where the man does not *look* at the woman...anything involving "objectification" (which, much of the time, is the whole IDEA of porn to begin with...you use an object to get your sexual desires off, instead of a person..a practice as old as the Venus of Willendorf).

I think a great idea for producers would be to move *away* from the traditional centers of entertainment. The internet, to some extent, makes things decentralized: I've seen actresses in this genre who are based in Portland, Seattle, Michigan, New Jersey, Virginia, and right in my own city [location deleted]. And there are other growing entertainment capitals such as Atlanta. FInd the area where you can keep your costs to a minimum while retaining as high a quality as possible, and keep plugging!

Feel free to tell me I'm wrong on any of this if you like. I like to learn as much as anyone else. Oh, and to respond to Revenger's OP, I too have resisted temptation several times to purchase Cory Chase's videos because of how mediocre the quality of the sets and costumes looks. Might have to break down eventually, though :)
The broader issues now coming under feminism is the intersectional stuff. It's basically a counter to the push made by rich white women to be as rich as white men and then call it Feminism Accomplished. Intersectionality is a strand of feminism that says, "Either we're all getting equality or none of us are", which is why you see it conflating with issues of race, disability, trans rights and so. It's well meaning but can often be very militant and unwelcoming. I've seen a lot of perfectly nice people get burned by those folks, but I've also seen those folks have to put up with waves of crap from all sorts of places, so I figure it's about even. Good news though, they're probably not going to actually hurt you or do anything worse than call you a name. Now in my experience (and weirdly enough I know a few of these folks) a lot of these people are very sex positive, very kink friendly and very supportive of sex work, pornography and all that good stuff.

A lot of that is down to Twitter, because back in the day you could set yourself up as either a religious puritan or a no-fun-allowed progressive and you'd be able to control the story. You could say to the media about how horrible X and Y are, how people are exploited, and so on. Nobody could question that, because you were 'The Expert'. And this went on for decades. But then Twitter appeared and sex workers, models, producers and other people connected to that world are able to speak out, and what they are saying is demolishing the narrative of both the religious and the radical progressives (often called SWERFs, Sex Worker Exclusive Radical Feminists). And if you pay attention to the prevailing social trends it's pretty clear that this is the side with the momentum in terms of the argument, these new sex positive folks, but they're mostly either too young or too marginalised or disenfranchised to do anything about it with regards to the law. But that'll happen in time.

There is a battle for freedom of speech going on at the moment and there is, at the same time, a gigantic decoy of a battle for free speech going on. The decoy is the one about safe spaces, about campus censorship, about political correctness. That's Fucking Nothing. I cannot stress enough how meaningless that all is. Seriously, there's a openly racist guy on TV literally about to win the GOP presidential nomination, the idea that there are things that you 'cannot say because it's un-PC' goes out the window in the face of a Trump candidacy. You can say those things, and people will make you President, so, y'know, maybe that threat is a tad overblown.

The actual battle for freedom of speech is being kept quiet and is being fought on a broad range of fronts. It's internet censorship (in the UK, in China and in other parts of the world where the government wants to use porn as a justification for blanket Internet censorship). It's also corporate censorship, because if you can't pay for porn using your own money because a bank doesn't approve of what you're buying, that's censorship. We've sleepwalked into a situation where Visa, Paypal and a range of other companies have de facto control over the content that can be sold online, which is a more dangerous brand of anti-capitalism than anything some goonbah in a Guy Fawkes mask would ever come up with, because they're basically preventing markets from functioning.

End of the day, way I see it, external hard drives are huge and cheap, and so I am going to stockpile everything I want like some sort of porn squirrel before it all gets locked down. The short term future might be very bleak (I'm actually kind of optimistic for the longer term, but we're definitely headed into rough waters).
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Mr. X
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Seriously, there's a openly racist guy on TV literally about to win the GOP presidential nomination
I assume you're talking about Trump? How is he openly racist vs some other team merely labeling everyone they don't like as "racist"? In fact could you explain what the word "racist" means cause it apparently has lost all meaning. BTW I'm not a Trump supporter. In fact I think this auto labeling is the censorship you're talking about.

Trump can say what he likes cause he's insulated by billions of dollars. The rest of us are not. In fact isn't auto labeling Trump racist exactly the PC tactic used to silence people?
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theScribbler
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Seriously, there's a openly racist guy on TV literally about to win the GOP presidential nomination, the idea that there are things that you 'cannot say because it's un-PC' goes out the window in the face of a Trump candidacy.
I see you're talking about Trump.

I don't think Trump is really racist. I think he says outlandish things to get the media to talk about him (free coverage on TV and other media), and also he says things he believes the folks he's selling himself to, campaigning for their votes, want to hear. The lout routine seems to be working so far. Yep, he could win the primary.
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digitalbleh
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Id say in my opinion that the scene is not dieing. It seems over the last decade, that one shop will close down but another one will turn up in its place. The whole genre seems like a risky business in the first place, as most people are wanting movies made about wonder woman, supergirl and batgirl, which are copyrighted characters in the first place.

On the point of piracy it is sad, i honestly think it is both sad for the producer and for a legitimate consumer, as the producer will lose sales and the consumer might be angry that they have paid where other people have got it for free. This is a problem for everything though not just porn. I can say for certain i have pirated tv shows and pc games, more so years ago when i was alot younger, today i might grab a tv show check it out and buy the dvd when it comes out. I have a nice job now and i can afford to do it, whereas i could not afford it when i was younger. I have been on a tube site or two but the quality of videos on those sites is generally so poor i cannot stand to watch them. 99% of any adult movie i watch is paid for either in single video purchases or in sporadic subscriptiions to my fav sites. Piracy is a big problem, but can every single one of you producers and users say that you have not pirated something in your life. Did you ever have a cassette player you recorded your fav radio show onto. Did you ever get a ringtone for your old nokia, Did you ever record a show onto a vcr, did you ever share an mp3 file. Id say most people did.

One of the other big issues with the genre is mentioned above, is the fact that the billing compaines as time went by have got stricter. I know one producer told me in an email that there old billing processor told them to remove certain aspects of things in there videos or they would no longer host their billing, it seems to happen to a lot of people. The other thing is the rise of computer related fraud, it is becoming more frequent over the years, not just in porn but in all online shopping retailers. The credit card compaines recently introduced the pin and chip features in a lot of countries and statistics have said that the rise in online fraud has risen by 40% as the pin/chip is not used on an online purchase.

Is there solutions to the above problem? Not really. I mean you could host your own website and offer no downloads of your videos and have them as stream only, and then encrypt the stream, kinda like how netflix does it. Do most people have the money to even do that? Not really. You could watermark all your videos, then track the uploaded video to a person, you could even go as far as to collectivly share a list between all your producers of know people buying and reuploading your videos, and ban them from all sites. Again its a cost issue tho, i cant see it ever being affordable. You could change your business model to that of "perfect 10" run your own billing and then sue anyone and everyone, and make your money off the courts not the videos themselves.

Is the whole genre of s.h.i.p dieing, as i said i dont think so, there is 22 thousand people registered on this forum, granted all arent active. There is prob the same amount of people who dont know this forum is around that has seen a s.h.i.p based film. There is a lot of people i bet now, watching all these superhero movies and tv shows around at the moment, thinking to themselves as they watch the latest episode of supergirl, how good it would be to see an enemy rip off her top or maybe more. Back when i got into this scene i just read the stories on mr.x site, then i found rye's 3 subscription based websites. When those died i noticed a lot of people try and take the place of rye, ive seen some of those producers come onto this site and post in a rye video realse topic of how they want to have videos like rye. We have just seen the "closure" of primal, i bet there will be a new producer come into the scene to try and take that place in the market. We have producers on here that have started as an actress and then decided to make there own movies in the scene, kendra for example, first saw her years and years ago in leageofamzingwomen videos. People come and go demand changes, but i doubt this genre will ever fade away.
Last edited by digitalbleh 8 years ago, edited 2 times in total.
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Leadpoison
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Mr. X wrote:^^^This^^^

Though I do think the conversion rate for pirates is 0%. A pirate, when forced to buy, will not buy.

A funny story -

I had a customer write me complaining there was nothing new on my site and he wanted his money back. I update literally every week and have never missed an update. So I explain that. He writes back that he's upset he downloaded all my stuff on pirate sites and when he joined he didn't find anything new.

I "of course" apologized that my stuff was pirated and that he got all my stuff for free and that I was really really sorry he paid one time. He then complained its my fault that I "let" my stuff get pirated cause its so easy to prevent the theft of jpg files.

That made me a sad panda.
Fuck that guy.
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batgirl1969
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Leadpoison wrote:
Mr. X wrote:^^^This^^^

Though I do think the conversion rate for pirates is 0%. A pirate, when forced to buy, will not buy.

A funny story -

I had a customer write me complaining there was nothing new on my site and he wanted his money back. I update literally every week and have never missed an update. So I explain that. He writes back that he's upset he downloaded all my stuff on pirate sites and when he joined he didn't find anything new.

I "of course" apologized that my stuff was pirated and that he got all my stuff for free and that I was really really sorry he paid one time. He then complained its my fault that I "let" my stuff get pirated cause its so easy to prevent the theft of jpg files.

That made me a sad panda.
Fuck that guy.
That sounds like a great punishment for that guy...of course it would probably need to be done by another guy or a tranny...not one of us heroines...unless of course it involves a fat massive strapon. Well..there we have a new scenario...a female director who literally fucks that guy for stealing her stuff!!
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Mr. X
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Leadpoison wrote:Fuck that guy.
To be fair he did convert or at least pay so if nothing else it did draw him to the site.
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swampy170
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Without quoting Digitalbleh's whole post - there are some open-source solutions for netflix-style server software. It wouldn't be that costly to adapt the code to suit your needs.

Of course, you have greater hosting costs - you probably need your own server to do the streaming. It's gonna cost more - but the streaming model, as Netflix clearly shows, can be effective to combat piracy if implemented correctly.

IMO SHG's the only outfit in SHIP who have the catalog to produce something like that - but, saying that, SHC has a TON of material. If Dano wants to keep running the subscription model, perhaps that's his way to get back into the market in a serious way - streaming entire SHC films.
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swampy170
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theScribbler wrote:
Seriously, there's a openly racist guy on TV literally about to win the GOP presidential nomination, the idea that there are things that you 'cannot say because it's un-PC' goes out the window in the face of a Trump candidacy.
I see you're talking about Trump.

I don't think Trump is really racist. I think he says outlandish things to get the media to talk about him (free coverage on TV and other media), and also he says things he believes the folks he's selling himself to, campaigning for their votes, want to hear. The lout routine seems to be working so far. Yep, he could win the primary.
Absolutely, from an outside the US view - I don't think Trump is deep enough to have deeply seated views on anything (except lowering his own taxes), including race. He says phrases to please certain demographics, and they vote for him. *facepalm*

Here's hoping the American people see sense before it's too late, after all past a certain stage the American political system is borderline undemocratic (electoral colleges et al).

How can you be happy to not even vote directly for your president?! - must have more faith in your politicians than we do on this side of the pond! Scary!
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swampy170 wrote:Without quoting Digitalbleh's whole post - there are some open-source solutions for netflix-style server software. It wouldn't be that costly to adapt the code to suit your needs.

Of course, you have greater hosting costs - you probably need your own server to do the streaming. It's gonna cost more - but the streaming model, as Netflix clearly shows, can be effective to combat piracy if implemented correctly.

IMO SHG's the only outfit in SHIP who have the catalog to produce something like that - but, saying that, SHC has a TON of material. If Dano wants to keep running the subscription model, perhaps that's his way to get back into the market in a serious way - streaming entire SHC films.
DanO has never really moved beyond MPEG-1 and MPEG-2 formats developed in the 1990s. The front page of SHC boasts "Optimized for 800x600 screens". He even sells old archives on 700MB CD-ROMs. He's just one of those guys who can't or won't drag his site into 2016.

You know how 1850-ish is the sweet spot when the Amish believe technology went as far as God wanted it to go? DanO seems to be like that with the Millennium. Anything from after 1999 is bad.

What you're suggesting would require new blood to revitalize SHC. Besides which, applicants for that job would probably have to contact DanO on his fax machine or pager.
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swampy170
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Veeery true - unfortunately :-(

I just see the quantity of Dano's catalog, and the potential there - particularly if they did want to get back into production. A wealth of IP to fall back on, and a great number of videos that could be put up on a netflix-style superheroine site that people would be interested to see in an easilly accessible format.

LOL regarding fax - he is a 90's era supervillain, very similar to the North Koreans with the technology timewarp. Although even they seem to be thawing!
Dogfish
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Mr. X wrote:
Seriously, there's a openly racist guy on TV literally about to win the GOP presidential nomination
I assume you're talking about Trump? How is he openly racist vs some other team merely labeling everyone they don't like as "racist"? In fact could you explain what the word "racist" means cause it apparently has lost all meaning. BTW I'm not a Trump supporter. In fact I think this auto labeling is the censorship you're talking about.

Trump can say what he likes cause he's insulated by billions of dollars. The rest of us are not. In fact isn't auto labeling Trump racist exactly the PC tactic used to silence people?
He literally said Latino immigrants are rapists. He has also called for banning Muslims from entering the USA. He's got a white supremacist group running a Super PAC for him. He lied about Muslims celebrating the 9/11 attacks. Seeking to throw minorities under the bus for your own advancement in life is part and parcel of what racism is all about, "What is right for these people is worth less than what is right for me because they are X and I am Y."

I'm sick of this bullshit that you can't call a man racist unless you literally catch the motherfucker in his Klan robes. And I'm sick of people defending men like Trump, who constantly appeal to bigotry and racism as a means to get attention, as if the possibility that they might not actually be 100% committed on their hatred in some way excuses their position.

The term racist hasn't lost all meaning at all, it's just there's a hell of a lot of racists about these days (same as it ever was), and unlike in the past people are actually pointing that kind of thing out now. People didn't complain about racism in the past, they accepted it, it was the norm. Now it isn't acceptable, at least in theory, so people point it out.

In practice a guy is going to be the GOP candidate by saying Latinos are rapists and that Muslims are a danger to society that need to be kept out of the country. He might be insulated from litigation by his money, but apparently you can still be an openly, vocally racist dick and win a primary in the USA. So tell me again how PC culture is silencing people.

The culture silencing people these days isn't a few angry hippies raging on twitter because somebody said something crappy. It's banks who can cut off a person or business from their source of income on a whim. It's a legal system that can wreck your life with federal charges over exercising the right to protest. It's a media that will blanket an issue in lies and that will actively ruin lives to serve it's agenda.

And I don't want to drag this too far off topic, so I'll drag it back in that direction. That culture of silencing I spoke of is directly part of this issue we were originally discussing, because it is the small producers getting hit by the banks. It is the small producers that can't bring any sort of force of law to bear against the piracy sites (and believe me, there's a lot more money running a file hosting service that asks no questions than actually making content these days). It's the small producers that get targeted when the laws change, because the bigger, mainstream sites are often run by people with enough case to buy political favours (for example the man who owns the Express group of newspapers makes a lot of money from porn, and his influence is probably part of why they see the porn problems in the UK as being cause by small companies not the big producers).

I don't like to come off angry or preachy or anything, but I like America and I don't like watching it make the sort of mistakes that we end up watching documentaries about on the History Channel for the next seventy years. :)
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1) Latinos and Muslims are not a race. And plenty of democrats have called for blocking immigration. FDR with Japanese, Italians and Germans. Carter with Iranians. The Latino comment is deplorable. But I've heard plenty of generalizations about white men. They are slave masters, oppressors etc.

2) Actually there is footage of some Muslims celebrating 9/11.

3) Blanket accusing people of being racist who disagree ideologically is not going to win the day. every election its the same thing. X republican is racist, sexist, homophobic. Oh and the people making those accusations are clearly hypocrites. Screams of misogyny and sexist while calling Palin a cunt and putting her head on bikini bodies. Yeah real nice. Seemed fine to pass out "Bros before Hos" t-shirts.

So yes the word racist is worn out. As worn out as the word Nazi or misogynist. No meaning.
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Mr. X
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Heroine Addict wrote: DanO has never really moved beyond MPEG-1 and MPEG-2 formats developed in the 1990s. The front page of SHC boasts "Optimized for 800x600 screens". He even sells old archives on 700MB CD-ROMs. He's just one of those guys who can't or won't drag his site into 2016.

You know how 1850-ish is the sweet spot when the Amish believe technology went as far as God wanted it to go? DanO seems to be like that with the Millennium. Anything from after 1999 is bad.

What you're suggesting would require new blood to revitalize SHC. Besides which, applicants for that job would probably have to contact DanO on his fax machine or pager.

The other issue is those older videos are on DAT tape and at max 720x480 or so. So remastering won't get larger video. We didn't move to HD till 2006 or so.
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The lack of easily locatable hard core videos (which was long before I even found this site) was a big part of why I started reading comics and erotica. Once I started reading dirty stories I found that I could get WAY more bang for my buck buying those stories compared to videos, which seem ungodly priced to me.

I mean, I understand the cost to make them must be high but even the most amazing heroine video has never seemed worth it to me as a consumer when I can get like ten times the length of media for a fraction of the price when buying just a regular movie. I know that's kind of like comparing oranges and apples, but regular media is so cheap now it doesn't make sense to me to drop 30$ on a ten minute porn video when I can get 2 hours of Avengers for 10$. If I need to fap I'll turn to all the other porn that's soooooooo much cheaper or free.

And when it came down to it yeah I produce things in this medium (3d comics and ebooks) because I love the medium. When it didn't make sense to try and sell my comics I decided it was better to just put them out there for free. I know not everyone is willing to do that, but if the market isn't willing to pay for something there will be those of us who will create the content for free because we love it.
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rarely say anything on forums. but this is important to me. superheroine peril needs something new. maybe 2 or 3 new producers who can do hardcore. personally I've spent thousands over last ten years or more. I'm not into g/g or bondage. so I really just wasted lots of that money. I even had a few custom videos done. didn't get close to what I wanted. that's why I just stopped buying most anything about year or more ago. that's the way it's going to be until something changes. I'm not throwing money away anymore. plus most things that are done are same things that have been done before. I don't even think some of it is even fetish, I think you could call it fluff. I hope something changes for the better soon. I actually want to spend some money. just on things I really want. did buy the new Electra woman/ Dyna Girl video. personally I'm a big 60's batgirl fan ( guess cause I'm older ). I know there are copyright problems. but I'd love to see someone do some videos right from some of scenes from batman series with Yvonne Craig. I think I'd fall over if someone did video from scene where Batigirl sneaks into Riddler's little used gymnasium. and she's captured by his henchmen. make a hot video. that's all I have. I love the genre and hope it gets a lot better. I'll spend money again if it's worth it.
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mikeyash wrote:rarely say anything on forums. but this is important to me. superheroine peril needs something new. maybe 2 or 3 new producers who can do hardcore. personally I've spent thousands over last ten years or more. I'm not into g/g or bondage. so I really just wasted lots of that money. I even had a few custom videos done. didn't get close to what I wanted. that's why I just stopped buying most anything about year or more ago. that's the way it's going to be until something changes. I'm not throwing money away anymore. plus most things that are done are same things that have been done before. I don't even think some of it is even fetish, I think you could call it fluff. I hope something changes for the better soon. I actually want to spend some money. just on things I really want. did buy the new Electra woman/ Dyna Girl video. personally I'm a big 60's batgirl fan ( guess cause I'm older ). I know there are copyright problems. but I'd love to see someone do some videos right from some of scenes from batman series with Yvonne Craig. I think I'd fall over if someone did video from scene where Batigirl sneaks into Riddler's little used gymnasium. and she's captured by his henchmen. make a hot video. that's all I have. I love the genre and hope it gets a lot better. I'll spend money again if it's worth it.
Well, the producers who best emulate the four-color aesthetic, style and tone of the Batman TV series are Jim Weathers, Kendra James, Anastasia Pierce, Christina Carter and this forum's owner Mighty Hypnotic. All of whom do mainly girl/girl and bondage, which you don't like.

There is, of course, the mainstream XXX "porn parody" genre. Axel Braun did a meticulous recreation of the 60s Batman. However, being mainstream hardcore, rather than fetish, it has virtually no peril.

What you're asking is risky on many levels. DC/WB could shut it down at any moment. Shooting boy/girl sex is expensive, particularly with multiple henchmen. Plus, if it's too rapey, VISA could withdraw payment processing.

Just out of interest, what's the best video you ever bought? The one that comes closest to delivering what you want to see?
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mikeyash
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alex braun's Dark Knight. Batgirl ( Penny Pax ) with Joker. Alex Braun hasn't done anything like it since. if copyright problems and rapey problems don't change somewhat or somehow I personally think superheroine peril is dead as far as I'm concerned. I'm not saying this to be jerk or because I'm mad. just a fact. eventually I'm just going to stop concerning myself with it that much. it's getting old check clips4sale and this forum and some sites and producers to see if there is something I like, only there nothing. eventually I'm just not going to waste my time. I'm not pointing fingers. if that's the way it has to be then so be it. I would be disappointed. thanks for returning my message. mike.
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So a month ago Revenger brought up Steve Steele and Sexed Up Superheroines on this thread. He had SUS for quite a long time and produced 25 vids with consistent quality until he mysteriously stopped. What's interesting is that all of those vids were barely even mentioned on this forum the whole time he was producing them..not sure why that is, he certainly had one of the better companies in the hardcore SHIP genre. Anyway..for those who wondered where he's gone - it looks like he's still around: he has a store on C4S http://clips4sale.com/6466/steve-steele-presents/ and has posted a couple mindcontrol vids in the past two months. Unfortunately it doesn't look there's a way to reach him. Anyone have any info about Steve Steele and why he stopped making the SUS vids?

Also..I've noticed that almost all the actresses in those SUS vids are now retired. One of the few exceptions being India Summer who is amazingly chugging along at 40. Also the beautiful Hungarian girl Nesty who is 31 (someone should hire her). Who, indeed, is taking up the mantle in the hardcore SHIP genre, in terms of both producers *and* actresses?
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