Living in the shadow of the corona virus

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tallyho wrote:
3 years ago
Don't understand the SA position of suspending Astazeneca jabs as they don't seem as effective against the SA strain. It protects against the normal virus which is still prevalent in SA and lessens the impact of the stronger strains so its still hot to be better than nothing.
That's a tricky one. Since the evidence they have indicates that it does little to protect against the SA strain, suspending use presumably means they still go forward with using other vaccines. You don't want people walking around thinking they have protection if they don't, particularly if there are other options.

On a broader level, until infection numbers around the world are far, far lower than they are now, new strains will continue to appear. Presumably the vaccines can be tweaked to protect against new strains, but that takes time. We still need to be on high alert until infection numbers are way lower, which will happen as vaccine use proliferates.
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But if the normal strain IS present and it is then you are still helping contain that. Suspending it doesn't solve any thing, because if it doesn't work so well on what you have now it's not gonna get any better. And we have been spoiled by getting the 90%+ protection rates. The annual flu jab only gives 30-50% protection. Even if its efficacy is low its got to be better than nothing. If you aren't gonna use the jabs give them to a country that will. But sitting on them makes no sense.
To me, anyways.
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Has anyone on the forum had it?
The only person I knew who had it died, though a friend of my sister has had it and whilst she is recovering its really hit her hard.
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I know of a woman in her 20's who attended a covid party and drank from the same glass as an infected person. Last I heard she was face down on a ventilator in hospital. I hope she survived.
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Grim stuff but totally avoidable.
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My son and his fiance' got it back in last March after coming off a Disney cruise. They're in their late 20s and fortunately both recovered. My son's case was quite mild from what he said. Hers was a bit more problematic but she recovered with no lasting effects from what she says. Phew!
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Tragic milestone of half a million US dead today
Just awful. UK at over 120,000.
The infection rates are dropping in the UK and US, so as more are vaccinated there is hope.
Stay safe and follow the guidelines.
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CNN covered it in depth. Fox Network barely did.
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DrDominator9 wrote:
3 years ago
CNN covered it in depth. Fox Network barely did.
Fox was covering the Covid scandal in NY, which CNN is not

And Fox did cover it

I alternate between both channels when I work out.
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I thought this was a thread about Corona virus and not a thread about the bourgeoisie grinding the hillbillies and bumpkins into the dirt.
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DrDominator9 wrote:
3 years ago
CNN covered it in depth. Fox Network barely did.
In fairness to Fox News, they were way too busy stoking up "culture wars" bullshit about the Muppets.



In reality, the Muppet Show episodes were shown completely uncut with a brief disclaimer about some of the content. A total non-story, but inexplicably more important than the landmark of 500,000 Covid deaths.
"A brass unicorn has been catapulted across a London street and impaled an eminent surgeon. Words fail me, gentlemen."
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Heroine Addict wrote:
3 years ago
DrDominator9 wrote:
3 years ago
CNN covered it in depth. Fox Network barely did.
In fairness to Fox News, they were way too busy stoking up "culture wars" bullshit about the Muppets.



In reality, the Muppet Show episodes were shown completely uncut with a brief disclaimer about some of the content. A total non-story, but inexplicably more important than the landmark of 500,000 Covid deaths.
But Heroine Addict, the communist left made the corona virus in Bernie's basement! Don't see CNN reporting on that! Fox news as the largest main stream media outlet is the only outlet brave enough to take on the main stream media! :giggle:
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Daily cases fall below 50k in the US. Due to masks? Due to vaccine? Not clear given that enormous SPIKE occurred AFTER compliance with mask wearing. As with any disease virus is going to virus and it will fade at some point.
Damselbinder

Mr. X wrote:
3 years ago
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Evbv63nUcAM ... name=large

Daily cases fall below 50k in the US. Due to masks? Due to vaccine? Not clear given that enormous SPIKE occurred AFTER compliance with mask wearing. As with any disease virus is going to virus and it will fade at some point.
...due to vaccine.
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the ONLY way it is going to go away is annual vaccines, well let me rephrase that, it is not going away, but may be able to be containable back to pre-pandemic levels, sadly it is here to stay now, unless the world can do what it did with Polio, Measles, etc...both of which have also come back but they react diffently to a one time vaccine unlike Covid.
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Mr. X wrote:
3 years ago
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Evbv63nUcAM ... name=large

Daily cases fall below 50k in the US. Due to masks? Due to vaccine? Not clear given that enormous SPIKE occurred AFTER compliance with mask wearing.
Those contracting the virus can be asymptomatic for a while before they start to show effects - - you'll recall this was one of the great fears with Covid-19, that people could be wandering around infecting others for some time without realising it. Some viruses show themselves within 24 to 48 hours of infection, but Covid-19 isn't one of those, it can lie dormant for ages. Factor in delays to gather and report figures, and you should expect a lag between interventions and their effect.

Also, remember that two factors control how fast the virus spreads: (1) how dense the population is, and (2) how dense the population is. All the mask mandates in the world won't help you if your population is stupid enough to attend holiday gatherings or sports watching parties.

If anyone doubts the effecacy of masks in preventing the spread of infection, I suggest the following: the next time you find yourself on a surgeon's operating table about to be sliced open, you inform the doctors they can remove their gloves and masks. That should put your theory to the test. Nothing like experimenting on yourself to push back the boundaries of science and medicine (spoiler alert: past generations of doctors may have already attempted simular experiments and published substantial works on the outcomes... but feel free to verify their results if you feel current medical understand of germ theory is insufficient. ;) )
As with any disease virus is going to virus and it will fade at some point.
This is true. Viruses burn themselves out once they run out of people to infect and/or kill. Effectively once everyone is either immune to every mutant strain, or six feet under pushing up the daisies, they run out of raw materials.

Zombie apocalypses fail for the same reason, I believe. :laugh:

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Only 1 death in Wales yesterday, and it was at 50 a day 2 weeks ago.
They reckon it's an average of 14 days for the virus to lie dormant hence a big spike of deaths is really the impact of the situation 10-15 days earlier, upto 28 days previously as In UK deaths are counted as Covid for people diagnosed as having it in the previous 28 days.
I assume it's a similar criteria Stateside.
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Damselbinder wrote:
3 years ago
Mr. X wrote:
3 years ago
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Evbv63nUcAM ... name=large

Daily cases fall below 50k in the US. Due to masks? Due to vaccine? Not clear given that enormous SPIKE occurred AFTER compliance with mask wearing. As with any disease virus is going to virus and it will fade at some point.
...due to vaccine.

I'm doubting that. If you look at the start of the drop its around Jan 1. We had approved the vaccine but it wasn't out yet. Sure it probably helped but my personal view is that it was a placebo for paranoia. The gov wants their solution to work so the gov maybe avoiding more broad, scary numbers.

In any event the graph does show the giant spike when we had the MOST mask and social distancing compliance. This to me says there is no direct evidence that masks, distancing and forcing businesses to close did all that much good and its pretty clear there was a a massive surge for months at the height of these measures.

I still favor lawsuits against mayors, governors etc who forced businesses to close for long periods. We were told 2 weeks by the experts, not 8 months to a year. Newsome and others need to be recalled and criminal charges pressed against them.
Damselbinder

Mr. X wrote:
3 years ago
Damselbinder wrote:
3 years ago
Mr. X wrote:
3 years ago
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Evbv63nUcAM ... name=large

Daily cases fall below 50k in the US. Due to masks? Due to vaccine? Not clear given that enormous SPIKE occurred AFTER compliance with mask wearing. As with any disease virus is going to virus and it will fade at some point.
...due to vaccine.

I'm doubting that. If you look at the start of the drop its around Jan 1. We had approved the vaccine but it wasn't out yet. Sure it probably helped but my personal view is that it was a placebo for paranoia. The gov wants their solution to work so the gov maybe avoiding more broad, scary numbers.

In any event the graph does show the giant spike when we had the MOST mask and social distancing compliance. This to me says there is no direct evidence that masks, distancing and forcing businesses to close did all that much good and its pretty clear there was a a massive surge for months at the height of these measures.

I still favor lawsuits against mayors, governors etc who forced businesses to close for long periods. We were told 2 weeks by the experts, not 8 months to a year. Newsome and others need to be recalled and criminal charges pressed against them.
The infection and death rates have dropped precipitously since the vaccine has started to be administered. Don't be absurd.
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Damselbinder wrote:
3 years ago
The infection and death rates have dropped precipitously since the vaccine has started to be administered. Don't be absurd.
Ok that is probably true however the graph does show little to no correlation between mask wearing,social distancing, business closures and covid 19 cases. In fact it shows a reverse. Not saying the masks etc cause covid but there isn't evidence that these mask and closure draconian measures did any good. Even Faucci stated on 60 minutes the masks do no good unless you're sick and only to stop some spittle.

For example the Sands is now selling the Venetian in Vegas with one of the reasons being the covid restrictions and its predicted other casinos will sell out as well. That's huge economic damage that we are just starting to feel. 100s of millions was spent on the raiders stadium in which now no one can attend. Again massive economic damage. And this is just vegas.
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I think a lot of us were pleasantly surprised at these BLM rallies where we had months of folks congregating in large numbers and we did not see a spike in numbers. I suppose the only thing one can take away from that is that being outdoors can significantly reduce the chances of COVID infection from one person to another. I wonder if years from now when these universities and medical schools do their studies of COVID, that these studies will conclude that the potential infection rate for folks outdoors is even lower than first thought, that the directive for a lot of these open air stadiums to ban fans from these venues was possibly an overreaction from health officials and politicians.
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gma reporting development of nasal spray vaccine.
Such are promises
All lies and jest
Still, a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest Simon & Garfunkel
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bushwackerbob wrote:
3 years ago
I think a lot of us were pleasantly surprised at these BLM rallies where we had months of folks congregating in large numbers and we did not see a spike in numbers. I suppose the only thing one can take away from that is that being outdoors can significantly reduce the chances of COVID infection from one person to another. I wonder if years from now when these universities and medical schools do their studies of COVID, that these studies will conclude that the potential infection rate for folks outdoors is even lower than first thought, that the directive for a lot of these open air stadiums to ban fans from these venues was possibly an overreaction from health officials and politicians.
Most BLM rallies had the majority of participants wearing masks.
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bushwackerbob wrote:
3 years ago
I think a lot of us were pleasantly surprised at these BLM rallies where we had months of folks congregating in large numbers and we did not see a spike in numbers. I suppose the only thing one can take away from that is that being outdoors can significantly reduce the chances of COVID infection from one person to another. I wonder if years from now when these universities and medical schools do their studies of COVID, that these studies will conclude that the potential infection rate for folks outdoors is even lower than first thought, that the directive for a lot of these open air stadiums to ban fans from these venues was possibly an overreaction from health officials and politicians.

The virus spreads through two means: (1) a vapor droplet form that hangs around in the air after someone coughs, speaks, etc. ; (2) a contact form that contaminates surfaces for up to 2 to 3 days. Outdoors, breezes tend to disperse the vapor form quick enough to greatly lower the odds that the infection can spread, particular if you just pass someone briefly in the street at a reasonable distance, although if you're next to an infected person for some time then presumably those odds increase. Likewise, if you're walking in the street then you're unlikely to be touching surfaces. This is not the case with a sport stadium were you may be touching seats, handrails, door handles, and other surfaces that could easily have been touched by someone infected. Once the virus is on your hands, it spreads to everything you touch, including very likely your insides once you take your mask off (this is why you should thoroughly wash your hands with soap and water as soon as you get home, before removing your mask - - the virus is contained within a fatty shell that disintegrated in regular detergent.)

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five_red wrote:
3 years ago
Mr. X wrote:
3 years ago
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Evbv63nUcAM ... name=large

Daily cases fall below 50k in the US. Due to masks? Due to vaccine? Not clear given that enormous SPIKE occurred AFTER compliance with mask wearing.
Those contracting the virus can be asymptomatic for a while before they start to show effects - - you'll recall this was one of the great fears with Covid-19, that people could be wandering around infecting others for some time without realising it. Some viruses show themselves within 24 to 48 hours of infection, but Covid-19 isn't one of those, it can lie dormant for ages. Factor in delays to gather and report figures, and you should expect a lag between interventions and their effect.

Also, remember that two factors control how fast the virus spreads: (1) how dense the population is, and (2) how dense the population is. All the mask mandates in the world won't help you if your population is stupid enough to attend holiday gatherings or sports watching parties.

If anyone doubts the effecacy of masks in preventing the spread of infection, I suggest the following: the next time you find yourself on a surgeon's operating table about to be sliced open, you inform the doctors they can remove their gloves and masks. That should put your theory to the test. Nothing like experimenting on yourself to push back the boundaries of science and medicine (spoiler alert: past generations of doctors may have already attempted simular experiments and published substantial works on the outcomes... but feel free to verify their results if you feel current medical understand of germ theory is insufficient. ;) )
As with any disease virus is going to virus and it will fade at some point.
I am scheduled for my shot late this month. My mother who had both her shots no ill effects
This is true. Viruses burn themselves out once they run out of people to infect and/or kill. Effectively once everyone is either immune to every mutant strain, or six feet under pushing up the daisies, they run out of raw materials.

Zombie apocalypses fail for the same reason, I believe. :laugh:

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Dazzle1 wrote:
3 years ago
I am scheduled for my shot late this month. My mother who had both her shots no ill effects
Just to avoid confusion, I didn't write this bit - - I'm assuming Dazzle1 accidentally did a mashup between my quote and his own comments.

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As the saying goes, "science doesn't know everything, but everything we know, we know through science." I think early on in the pandemic when politicians chose to doubt the science, they weren't picking a fight with a group of people who had infallible knowledge of all the answers, but they were picking a fight with people who had the best tools to find the answers. As the months have rolled by and those tools started to provide fruit, the politicians should have backed down and conceded, but they didn't.

I have my concerns that the current trend in the naysayer movement, with their calls to immediately re-open states 100% and their nitpicking of cherry picked data, is actually more about face saving than it is about a genuine evidence-based differences of opinion. They picked a fight with science, and that worked for a short time, but eventually science's tools were always going to be a more reliable way of getting to the genuine answers. So now the naysayers are reduced to either bickering over tiny details, or just ignoring the answers outright, so that they don't have to admit they got it wrong. Clutching at straws to save face.

In some regards the QAnon movement are going through the same thing, except more comical and absurd: Trump is still President: Biden is actually a robot or body double being controlled by Trump ; Biden's Oval Office is actually a studio set and Trump is still in the real Oval... etc. The difference here is that when QAnon supporters try to save face, we can all laugh at them, but when naysaying state governors try to save face, people potentially may end up on mortuary slabs.

EDIT: I think what we need to do is come up with some kind of fig leaf, so that these politicians can get behind the science without having to admit they were wrong. Some might say that they shouldn't be allowed a graceful exit away from their science denials, that they need to publicly admit they picked the wrong strategy, but we should remember that these politicans are quite prepared to literally see some of their constituents die rather than suffer the political consequences of being seen to change their mind. So let's forget about political point scoring and come up with some way to allow the naysayers to quietly shift to a science based approach without worrying about their poll numbers. It will almost certainly save innocent lives.

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Bert

five_red wrote:
3 years ago
EDIT: I think what we need to do is come up with some kind of fig leaf, so that these politicians can get behind the science without having to admit they were wrong. Some might say that they shouldn't be allowed a graceful exit away from their science denials, that they need to publicly admit they picked the wrong strategy, but we should remember that these politicans are quite prepared to literally see some of their constituents die rather than suffer the political consequences of being seen to change their mind. So let's forget about political point scoring and come up with some way to allow the naysayers to quietly shift to a science based approach without worrying about their poll numbers. It will almost certainly save innocent lives.
R5
First, I'd like to thank you. That Supergirl timeline you put together is fantastic!

Okay, as for the above quote - it seems naive to me. Republican governors of Republican states are forced by the current reality of the party to toe the Trump line of covid denial. Trump owns Republican voters so completely that every sitting Republican politician must act in ways that please Trump or risk being primary-ed by a Trump loyalist and losing their job.

It's important to grasp the way Trump has earned such undying loyalty from his voters. He does it by validating their biases. Trump never stops trolling journalists, scientists, the intelligence agencies, basically every form of actual expertise and every well of actual knowledge. By constantly attacking expertise, as well as liberals and allied countries, Trump isolates his supporters and creates an us vs. them view that amplifies and empowers their biases. By throwing in with Trump, his base gets to feel superior to all of the agents of change who makes their lives confusing. It turns out that that empowerment is so alluring that many people will believe it despite all available evidence to the contrary. There are many cases from around the country of Trump supporters denying the existence of covid-19 even as it steals their final breaths in hospital rooms.

I think when the history of this time is written, it will be described as the age of schadenfreude. Close to half of the American voting public are more strongly motivated by seeing their perceived enemies (liberals and smarty-pantses) suffer than they are by their own well-being. In practical terms that means the more proof you offer for, say, mask use to prevent the spread of the virus, the more strongly Trump supporters will dig in and resist. I see no short term solution to that anti-reason.
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tallyho wrote:
3 years ago

Most BLM rallies had the majority of participants wearing masks.
And so what if they do, they're not social distancing. If people can be in a BLM crowd wearing a mask and social distancing they can eat at Paco's restaurant or drink at Sam's bar or shop at Mary's candle shop or separate themselves at church.

This is not about wearing masks, its about disobeying the command from the bourgeoisie to wear masks.

And this is the same pattern from the bourgeoisie over and over.
Make a rule - scream it in your face - make it a law - then break that rule right in your face. Its a show of power. Rules are for thee not for me.
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BwBob had said he was pleasantly surprised that you had the BLM rallies but not seen surges of the virus in those towns. I was pointing out why.
Compare that to the 19 Trump election rallies with the fatal combinstion of no masks and close proximity and 14 of them caused huge spikes in those towns with an estimated 32000, cases directly traceable to those outbreaks, and therefore hundreds dead.
They were dubbed superspreader events for a reason.
You want to get out of this mess you follow the rules. Simple as.
Wash your hands, wear a mask, keep your distance, get the vaccine.
It's not even hard.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/10/31/coronav ... s-say.html
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I don't know how any of us one way or another can break down the BLM ratio of mask wearers to non mask wearers, but I saw an awful lot of folks not wearing masks at those rallies. I do appreciate five red's sensible and logical explanation of why the infection rates of stadiums full of people would be different from BLM rallies. I still am in the "wear a damn mask dummies" thought process, but from a purely scientifically curious observational mode I am curious about how Florida, a notoriously non mask compliant state, about what their infection and positive case rate is, did Florida become overcome with COVID cases at an increased infection rate compared to other states that were more mask compliant. That is my question. In that same scientifically curious observational mode that is interested in data, I am curious as to how Texas and Mississippi deal with in my opinion is a foolhardy decision to repeal their mask mandates and return to business as usual, that from a DETACHED, scientifically curious mode, it will be interesting to see the results of those decisions in those states. Whether any of us like it or not, in a sense, Texas and Mississippi will be the canaries in the coal mines for this reckless experiment.
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five_red wrote:
3 years ago
Dazzle1 wrote:
3 years ago
I am scheduled for my shot late this month. My mother who had both her shots no ill effects
Just to avoid confusion, I didn't write this bit - - I'm assuming Dazzle1 accidentally did a mashup between my quote and his own comments.

R5
Sorry about the screw up.
Bert

bushwackerbob wrote:
3 years ago
I don't know how any of us one way or another can break down the BLM ratio of mask wearers to non mask wearers, but I saw an awful lot of folks not wearing masks at those rallies. I do appreciate five red's sensible and logical explanation of why the infection rates of stadiums full of people would be different from BLM rallies. I still am in the "wear a damn mask dummies" thought process, but from a purely scientifically curious observational mode I am curious about how Florida, a notoriously non mask compliant state, about what their infection and positive case rate is, did Florida become overcome with COVID cases at an increased infection rate compared to other states that were more mask compliant. That is my question. In that same scientifically curious observational mode that is interested in data, I am curious as to how Texas and Mississippi deal with in my opinion is a foolhardy decision to repeal their mask mandates and return to business as usual, that from a DETACHED, scientifically curious mode, it will be interesting to see the results of those decisions in those states. Whether any of us like it or not, in a sense, Texas and Mississippi will be the canaries in the coal mines for this reckless experiment.
The canary in the coal mine experiment has already been run. Stats show that the American death rate from covid-19 is 2.5 times higher than Canada's. That's a very telling statistic. Canada and the U.S. are similar in many ways. Both large countries that span from Atlantic to Pacific oceans. Similar urban/rural split. Similar governance, with states/provinces responsible for health care decisions. Similar spread of liberal to conservative states/provinces. Similar culture. The main differences are:

A. Canadians as a whole are a bit less suspicious of the federal government.
B. Canadians are less suspicious of science based policy.
C. Canada didn't have a raging, self-obsessed idiot running the show.

Look, this isn't complicated. Donald Trump consistently put his reelection goals and his ego ahead of the welfare of the American people. Close to half the country do whatever Trump says, so his supporters rushed to the anti-covid precaution bandwagon out of loyalty.

The Texas and Mississippi "experiments" won't be fully conclusive because major employers are maintaining mask and other covid precautions - because they aren't idiots. Sadly, the lack of state support will encourage Trump supporters to resist those sensible precautions which will lead to isolated cases of violence. With the more transmissible British strain gaining ground daily in the U.S., states ending mask and other mandates now will suffer serious consequences, but hopefully the corporate/sensible individual effect will help reduce the carnage.
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Bert wrote:
3 years ago
bushwackerbob wrote:
3 years ago
I don't know how any of us one way or another can break down the BLM ratio of mask wearers to non mask wearers, but I saw an awful lot of folks not wearing masks at those rallies. I do appreciate five red's sensible and logical explanation of why the infection rates of stadiums full of people would be different from BLM rallies. I still am in the "wear a damn mask dummies" thought process, but from a purely scientifically curious observational mode I am curious about how Florida, a notoriously non mask compliant state, about what their infection and positive case rate is, did Florida become overcome with COVID cases at an increased infection rate compared to other states that were more mask compliant. That is my question. In that same scientifically curious observational mode that is interested in data, I am curious as to how Texas and Mississippi deal with in my opinion is a foolhardy decision to repeal their mask mandates and return to business as usual, that from a DETACHED, scientifically curious mode, it will be interesting to see the results of those decisions in those states. Whether any of us like it or not, in a sense, Texas and Mississippi will be the canaries in the coal mines for this reckless experiment.
The canary in the coal mine experiment has already been run. Stats show that the American death rate from covid-19 is 2.5 times higher than Canada's. That's a very telling statistic. Canada and the U.S. are similar in many ways. Both large countries that span from Atlantic to Pacific oceans. Similar urban/rural split. Similar governance, with states/provinces responsible for health care decisions. Similar spread of liberal to conservative states/provinces. Similar culture. The main differences are:

A. Canadians as a whole are a bit less suspicious of the federal government.
B. Canadians are less suspicious of science based policy.
C. Canada didn't have a raging, self-obsessed idiot running the show.

Look, this isn't complicated. Donald Trump consistently put his reelection goals and his ego ahead of the welfare of the American people. Close to half the country do whatever Trump says, so his supporters rushed to the anti-covid precaution bandwagon out of loyalty.

The Texas and Mississippi "experiments" won't be fully conclusive because major employers are maintaining mask and other covid precautions - because they aren't idiots. Sadly, the lack of state support will encourage Trump supporters to resist those sensible precautions which will lead to isolated cases of violence. With the more transmissible British strain gaining ground daily in the U.S., states ending mask and other mandates now will suffer serious consequences, but hopefully the corporate/sensible individual effect will help reduce the carnage.
What about Florida though. You have had a lot of dopes running around Florida for a good while now without masks (or brains it seems). I have heard conflicting data about the numbers overall. I do disagree with you to an extent in that without the mask mandate, that while to an extent, you may be right that some responsible employers will still enforce their own mask mandates and play it safe, there will be many more that will not do that, that you will have many more folks in those states walking around freely without masks and that will at least tell us something about the infection rate versus states that still have them in effect. You are quite right that Canadians are less suspicious of the federal government, and I would add to that statement that folks in a southern state like Mississippi and in Texas are even more distrustful of federal authorities and mandates. I think we indeed will learn something from how those two states decision to get back to normal.
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Again the bourgeoisie classists turn this into a partisan fight to keep the 4s and below in their place.
Damselbinder

Mr. X wrote:
3 years ago
Again the bourgeoisie classists turn this into a partisan fight to keep the 4s and below in their place.
X, can you please not be so hostile? I'm sure you're right that there are going to be some elitist jackasses making jokes about dumb rednecks or whatever, but that's not the same thing as being appalled by people doing what appears to be radically self-destructive. Even if you're right about everything you've ever said about the virus, surely you must acknowledge that some people really do believe what Fauci (etc) have been telling them, and think that the doubters are putting their lives and the lives of others in danger. As soon as you start saying "oh it's bourgeoisie classists" you've lumped together people who may be radically politically unaligned. It's a form of identity politics.

I thought you didn't like identity politics.
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Damselbinder wrote:
3 years ago
Mr. X wrote:
3 years ago
Again the bourgeoisie classists turn this into a partisan fight to keep the 4s and below in their place.
X, can you please not be so hostile? I'm sure you're right that there are going to be some elitist jackasses making jokes about dumb rednecks or whatever, but that's not the same thing as being appalled by people doing what appears to be radically self-destructive.
That right there is an elitist comment. "Appalled"? Oh those serfs! Who are you to decide this for others? Cause others don't go along with your view does not mean they are dumb or rednecks or whatever. Your plan DOES NOT WORK. Some people don't want it. Its not the ONLY WAY.

And if how covid was handled by the so called "experts" is any indication, how these same "experts" handle climate change will probably result in the deaths of millions. I don't have the answers but its apparent so called experts like Fauci changing his mind every 4 weeks has no answers either.

My generation spent a great deal of effort and time swatting the bourgeoisie right across the nose with a rolled up news paper and telling them to F-OFF. Now we have to do the same thing to the busy body left.

No thanks. Keep your "plan". we are seeing what the leftist plan is doing to california.

And here's something to contemplate. If you "plan" requires people who don't like you or are opposed to you to 100% capitulate and go along with it then its doomed to failure and is really just a way to keep people fighting. Anybody who wants success wouldn't need to pull an opposing team kicking and screaming along with them. They would figure out a voluntary means to do so. VOLUNTARY.
Damselbinder

Mr. X wrote:
3 years ago
Damselbinder wrote:
3 years ago
Mr. X wrote:
3 years ago
Again the bourgeoisie classists turn this into a partisan fight to keep the 4s and below in their place.
X, can you please not be so hostile? I'm sure you're right that there are going to be some elitist jackasses making jokes about dumb rednecks or whatever, but that's not the same thing as being appalled by people doing what appears to be radically self-destructive.
That right there is an elitist comment. "Appalled"? Oh those serfs! Who are you to decide this for others? Cause others don't go along with your view does not mean they are dumb or rednecks or whatever. Your plan DOES NOT WORK. Some people don't want it. Its not the ONLY WAY.

And if how covid was handled by the so called "experts" is any indication, how these same "experts" handle climate change will probably result in the deaths of millions. I don't have the answers but its apparent so called experts like Fauci changing his mind every 4 weeks has no answers either.

My generation spent a great deal of effort and time swatting the bourgeoisie right across the nose with a rolled up news paper and telling them to F-OFF. Now we have to do the same thing to the busy body left.

No thanks. Keep your "plan". we are seeing what the leftist plan is doing to california.

And here's something to contemplate. If you "plan" requires people who don't like you or are opposed to you to 100% capitulate and go along with it then its doomed to failure and is really just a way to keep people fighting. Anybody who wants success wouldn't need to pull an opposing team kicking and screaming along with them. They would figure out a voluntary means to do so. VOLUNTARY.
Please actually read what I am saying. If I was of the opinion that a group of people were engaged in an activity that would kill them and others around them or at least had serious risk of doing so - even if I am WRONG that they are in danger - being appalled by needless loss of life is not elitist in and of itself.
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Damselbinder wrote:
3 years ago
Please actually read what I am saying. If I was of the opinion that a group of people were engaged in an activity that would kill them and others around them or at least had serious risk of doing so - even if I am WRONG that they are in danger - being appalled by needless loss of life is not elitist in and of itself.
THAT right there is the horrific fatal flaw. That "if you don't do what we say people will die". How come everything the left does comes down to "throw all the rules out and do what you're told or millions will die"?

That is set up for failure and its as false as "build a southern wall or Isis will come in and kill your children".

Turning everything you want into a 4 alarm fire is fatally flawed.
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Millions HAVE died globally and half a million are dead because of the precise attitude you are advocating leading to a half assed approach to following the guidance to get out of it.
You cannot declare "YOUR PLAN DOES NOT WORK" when the plan has never been followed properly to begin with in your country. Every country where it has has clearly seen the benefits.
The disease is new and every day we are learning more about it. Logically then as you learn more information you USE that information to modify your response. That's not changing your mind every 4 weeks that's responding to changing circumstances. What's your alternative to this approach (which again does clearly work when implemented by the populace)? Gee maybe it's time to give that ingesting disinfectant inside the body another shot, huh.
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It's getting harder to be optimistic about the future of humanity.
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tallyho wrote:
3 years ago
Millions HAVE died globally and half a million are dead because of the precise attitude you are advocating leading to a half assed approach to following the guidance to get out of it.
THERE! Snap shot that. Because I did not OBEY YOU, MILLIONS DIED. So its on ME? You have empirical evidence than me COMPLAINING about business closures or wearing masks MURDER millions of people?

See that's the twisted and demented argument. Its about grinding a lower class into the dirt with a guilt trip.

Millions die every year from influenza, heart disease, cancer..... dozens of things.

But to reduce the argument down to "you didn't do X therefore millions died"... yeah that's grinding someone into the dirt and setting up class conflict.

Again if your solution is a bunch of people who don't think like you must do what you say or the wold blows up then your solution won't work.

Tallyho. Name one time in your life this tactic has EVER worked to pull someone over to your side? One time. Please name it.
Damselbinder

Mr. X wrote:
3 years ago
tallyho wrote:
3 years ago
Millions HAVE died globally and half a million are dead because of the precise attitude you are advocating leading to a half assed approach to following the guidance to get out of it.
THERE! Snap shot that. Because I did not OBEY YOU, MILLIONS DIED. So its on ME? You have empirical evidence than me COMPLAINING about business closures or wearing masks MURDER millions of people?

See that's the twisted and demented argument. Its about grinding a lower class into the dirt with a guilt trip.

Millions die every year from influenza, heart disease, cancer..... dozens of things.

But to reduce the argument down to "you didn't do X therefore millions died"... yeah that's grinding someone into the dirt and setting up class conflict.

Again if your solution is a bunch of people who don't think like you must do what you say or the wold blows up then your solution won't work.

Tallyho. Name one time in your life this tactic has EVER worked to pull someone over to your side? One time. Please name it.
X, when have your argumentative tactics worked? When has saying "YOU'RE GRINDING THE LOWER CLASS INTO THE DIRT" to people saying "take the virus seriously" convinced anyone? Also, your argumentation is flatly illogical. Tally didn't say "you, X, have [y] attitude, therefore because of you personally people have died." He said "people with the attitude you are advocating have approached the virus (solving it, avoiding it, whatever) in a half-assed way." Even if he's wrong, he didn't say what you thought he said. What you do, as far as I can see, basically every single time you engage in an argument with someone, is you interpret what they say in the least charitable way possible such that you can get to ignore it and say it's a class thing.
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There is demonization by both sides. But there is far more by the left, just look at the Squad, Pelosi and Dem leadership, or the censorship by big tech and the media.

The left can't even give Trump credit for warp speed and blame him instead of China for all the deaths
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China isn't the one who scrapped the Whitehouse pandemic unit in 2017. Then denied that he had done it.

China isn't the one who refused to use the pandemic play book because it had been developed by the Obama administration.

China isn't the one who mocked wearing masks.

China isn't the one who held huge political superspreader events.

China isn't the one whose half assed policy resulted in thousands of people having returned to the States from all over the world being stuck in airports for hours in close proximity to other travellers before being allowed to travel to all parts of the states and merrily go about their business spreading it to all and sundry.

China isn't the one whose health message consisted of 'one day it will magically disappear'

China isn't the one who cancelled the Covid press briefings.

China isn't the one who didn't attend a Covid meeting in 5 months.

China isn't the one who suggested ingesting disinfectant might be a good idea.

China isn't the one who never once acknowledged the massive numbers of dead and treated that as both a tragedy and a serious issue.

China isn't the one who exposed his own security detail to infection just so he could drive around and score political points when he should have been isolating.

China isn't the one who felt it was more important to go and play golf than deliver any messages on public health.

China isn't the one who said the vaccine distribution was all in place when it wasn't.

China isn't the one who spent the last 3 months of his presidency making absolutely zero effort to reinforce any kind of health message.

China isn't the one that turned the Whitehouse Rose Garden into super spreader central.

China isn't the one- oh what's the point.? If seeing half a million graves doesn't convince you it's his fault then logic won't. All that above isn't even a complete list. You are wrong when you say the Dems blame Trump for the deaths in the states (ya know as he was in charge an' all).
The WORLD blames Trump for the death toll in the states being as high as it is.

Look at that list above and as I say it isn't even complete. Those things HAPPENED.
Against that what have you got? His administration gave money to warp speed. Which delivered a vaccine 8 days before other firms not involved delivered vaccines. Great.

Here's a crazy idea for you. Maybe the world blames him for your death toll being astronomical because he IS the one responsble.
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China created the virus and lied about it.

Pelosi refused to work with her President, she is the U.S elected official most responsible for the death and economic harm followed by Cuomo and Newsome.

Learn the facts

Obama drained the fund, he was a failure as a President and a man

We would have 10 times as many dead if Obama or Biden was in charge
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'Learn the facts' :giggle: that is so hilarious in support of a regime that has told 30,000 lies or untrue statements in 4 years, :lol: :lol: :lol:

Your choice did NOTHING face it. NOTHING.
Mumbling something about other people being worse in denial of the facts when those other people were all advocating following the guidelines makes absolutely no sense.
Don't forget this man rated his performance as 10 /10. On that basis, if he HAD gone to meetings, then it must go to 11. Because 11 is better than 10. Therefore if he HAD promoted the health message, add another one. Lead by example in wearing a mask - he's at 13. Not held the super spreader rallies 14. Not had the Rose garden outbreaks 15. Pretty soon we keep that up and he couldve been rating himself at 25 /10 because he's that bloody good. But he didn't. He stuck at 10/10 because he's so modest. What a guy, what a guy.

The trouble with having your head permanently in the sand is the view isn't great.

Please let's park Warp Speed on the basis that ALL OTHER MAJOR NATIONS OF THE WORLD WERE DOING SIMILAR PROGRAMS.

So that aside JUST TELL ME WHAT HE DID TO FIGHT THE SPREAD OF THE VIRUS
(AND PLEASE DON'T MENTION THE SO CALLED 'TRAVEL BAN' on China as it was only partial, wasn't a ban and allowed an estimated 10,000 plus people to come into the country and spread it)

You advocate learning the facts (albeit selective ones) so GIVE ME SOME.

LIST HIS ACTIONS IN FIGHTING THE VIRUS.

I'd particularly like to see his actions on the last 5 months of his Presidency when the virus was reaching a crescendo- oh no wait scratch that golfing doesn't do anything.

(and before there's an uproar with people saying I'm shouting I am old school and use caps for emphasis.)

So please. The floor is yours List his many achievements in fighting the virus. Like I say, maybe concentrate on the last 5 months of his regime. I'm sure there will be lots. Lots and lots
Many, many people are saying there are lots. Great people. Important people. Lots of great important people. Glowing with bigly admiration for the way the very stable genius dealt with this.
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Bert

Having recently been sanctioned for calling a deserving person a bad name, I realize my credibility here is on shaky ground. Still, I will share my thoughts. What are you guys doing? It takes time to collect your thoughts and then type out these lengthy posts. To what end? After the last year of these discussions I'm sure every member here with an interest knows where the two individuals in question are coming from, so refuting their posts has no utility for other readers. That leaves only arguing for it's own sake, and the two individuals will obviously never admit to being wrong. Personally, it's offensive to me to watch all this genuine effort at constructing reasonable arguments being wasted. It's like it cheapens the entire concept of reason to keep throwing it around with so little impact. Please, just ignore them. Please.
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