The Ultimate Superheroines Forum

Hey all! So I've been getting random feedback about sex scenes in hardcore fetish films and I'm curious what the majority is on this...

Do you prefer when the Heroine is completely taken and defiant the entire time? Or when she initially is defiant and succumbs to her desires basically turning into a slut halfway through? Or do you like to see it mixed up?

How about other things that you wish producers did better as a whole? I'm filming 2 hardcore boy-girl scenes this week and I'd like to not make "classic rookie mistakes" out of lack of feedback beforehand

completely taken and defiant the entire time, leads to her staying in character and the humiliation of the defeat mean more. If they look like the enjoy it then it turns into bad porn.

Orgasm against the heroine's will should sound like they are fighting it till they can't control it and they cum painfully.

It's funny because that's what I had always thought was the wish for this since it makes most sense to me-- most heroines wouldn't want to admit defeat etc - but there are a lot of viewers requesting that the heroine realize they enjoy it then start to get into it...

Now, I have a scenario I want to shoot which the latter happens, but in a very innocent, discovery way...

Depends on the story written. The defiant scene is always fun, but them submitting to their base desires is always cool at times too..

It depends mostly on the story written. I'd prefer the resistant the whole time thing but I'd really like to see one where the heroine enjoys it so much that she gets all dominant with it. Really you can't go too wrong with superheroines having sex especially with some of the girls we're used to seeing in your videos. I'd say it comes down more to the girl and costume is what makes it for me.

I've always liked the idea of the heroine getting into it near the end but i can definitely see it breaking the tension as it takes away the unpredictability of the rest of the film and we know there are no surprises ahead, but if her changing is very important to you then maybe just try having part of her start to come round to it but not entirely so that the peril/effect of the scene isn't lost while also being able to add this new aspect and make both these aspects work cohesively together.

"Do you prefer when the Heroine is completely taken and defiant the entire time?"
This mostly.

"Or when she initially is defiant and succumbs to her desires basically turning into a slut halfway through?"
This is a good option if you don't want VISA (or MASTERCARD) to see it as rapey, and shut down your merchant account. Kind of why kink.com does all those pre and post interviews with the actresses surrounding the harsh treatment. Although kink.com is so huge now it probably doesn't need those pre/post interviews anymore. But smaller companies and rapey material still need to watch it.

"Or do you like to see it mixed up?"
Not in the same video, but in a series of videos, sure.

Great to see you're going full-fledged pornographer now.

I prefer when the heroine is NOT resistant through the entire experience. Perhaps she's overcome by the physical sensation, or her will is broken and she gives in to it, or she is conflicted by the fact that she's aroused by the situation. Voiceover is especially useful in getting this across. The implication is that it's an effect of the villain's power or (side) effect of the heroine's power, or a psychological kink she has. It can also be interesting if sexual stimulation explicitly affects the heroine's powers or mental state; this can even be a plot device for the heroine's resistance or active participation.

Not to say that the heroine resisting throughout being taken ruins a video, but sometimes that resistance is portrayed flatly, like a single facial expression of displeasure while otherwise just waiting out the villain until he quits. If the heroine isn't restrained, some physical resistance or struggle makes sense; this can be useful to justify a change of angle/position.

Of course the path your video takes will be shaped, limited, or dictated by what the actors are willing to do -- and they may not be able to articulate their limits ahead of time if it's not familiar territory for them. After all, this isn't basic pornographic sex scene stuff.

Edit: one interesting kind of sexual effect I don't see often is the idea that a climax specifically will suddenly and explicitly nullify her powers, perhaps more than briefly or even permanently -- or that a climax can transfer powers.

Logan wrote:It's funny because that's what I had always thought was the wish for this since it makes most sense to me-- most heroines wouldn't want to admit defeat etc - but there are a lot of viewers requesting that the heroine realize they enjoy it then start to get into it...

Now, I have a scenario I want to shoot which the latter happens, but in a very innocent, discovery way...

+1 - I look forward to seeing what you have in mind.

It needs to be pretty well acted and you know your actresses skills the best, but may I suggest a voice-over where the heroine plans to wrest control of the sexual situation from her opponent somehow when she changes her position only to fail by some unexpected action on that villain's part. I think that would be hot.

That's a brilliant concept Doc.
You can't see it but I am saluting you sir.

enigma wrote:When you say hardcore sex scene, do you mean with actual penetration? Because that's what hardcore means to me.

If that question is for me, then yes, I mean hardcore.

My preference is for scenes in which the heroine remains defiant throughout her ordeal and then a brief epilogue essentially confirms her full (taciturn) surrender. The implication being that she has developed Stockholm syndrome or her mental state has been irrevocably altered by what has happened to her.

What's also a neat touch is for the heroine's outfit to be pulled/torn during the sex scene but for this to have been removed (save for boots/gloves) by the time we rejoin her following the screen fade.

Defiant all the way through, but as she is taken, her will weakens as she realizes she has been thoroughly defeated. A great example is last week's release of "supergurl-weakened, beaten, broken" @ PrimalFetish.com----an excellent example....the SG character is beaten down, bound on a nifty bondage rack (upright) vibed through her costume, then her breasts revealed, her costume shorts pulled down and she's vibed again to climax. The next scene is an incredible scene of her lying on a horizontal rack/table, top pulled up, bottoms pulled down, ball-gagged and her arms and legs hanging off the rack. She is then taken sexually. Incredible vid.

Fenton wrote:Defiant all the way through, but as she is taken, her will weakens as she realizes she has been thoroughly defeated. A great example is last week's release of "supergurl-weakened, beaten, broken" @ PrimalFetish.com----an excellent example....the SG character is beaten down, bound on a nifty bondage rack (upright) vibed through her costume, then her breasts revealed, her costume shorts pulled down and she's vibed again to climax. The next scene is an incredible scene of her lying on a horizontal rack/table, top pulled up, bottoms pulled down, ball-gagged and her arms and legs hanging off the rack. She is then taken sexually. Incredible vid.

Anyone else see that vid? I'll check it out if it's something multiple people enjoyed...

When it comes to sex scenes be it simulated or actual penetration. I like it when the heroine is defiant and if hit in the right spots she give out sounds of enjoying it, but quickly become defiant again. Not liking that her body responds positively to the villain. Maybe in the end she gives up being defiant and succumbs(thus defeated completely). If the heroine just straight up likes it from the get go, it becomes plain cosplay porno.
The most important thing is that the costume stays on for the most part. It's pretty pointless having the girl stripped down naked right away and then have a long penetration scene or whatever. Because if that's the case, I could just go to any porn streaming site for free and pretend it's about a heroine. I don't recall seeing any complete nude videos like that, but I frequently see questions about if the costume stays on or not so they must exist somewhere?

Anyway, I like that heroines can be very sexual(why else wear sexy costumes?). Once it becomes straight up slutty it loses a lot of the appeal.

I suppose it depends on the character and our perception of how we THINK they would react. Personally speaking, I like the heroine to be defiant throughout her ordeal. But as her captor toys with her, be it playing with her through her outfit or removing parts of her costume. You see the confidence falter as she realises how hopeless her situation is. Also agree that the costume should not come off right away, half of a heroines power is her costume and the what it represents. By stripping it off slowly or cutting it off her a bit at a time, your symbolically taking away her strength and purity. Always annoys me that most heroines go commando under their costumes. Much better when they have underwear on, as it gives another thing to take away from them. You take away their strength by removing their costume and their dignity when you remove their underwear, its the final insult.

Logan wrote:

Fenton wrote:Defiant all the way through, but as she is taken, her will weakens as she realizes she has been thoroughly defeated. A great example is last week's release of "supergurl-weakened, beaten, broken" @ PrimalFetish.com----an excellent example....the SG character is beaten down, bound on a nifty bondage rack (upright) vibed through her costume, then her breasts revealed, her costume shorts pulled down and she's vibed again to climax. The next scene is an incredible scene of her lying on a horizontal rack/table, top pulled up, bottoms pulled down, ball-gagged and her arms and legs hanging off the rack. She is then taken sexually. Incredible vid.

Anyone else see that vid? I'll check it out if it's something multiple people enjoyed...

Logan: I don't usually buy from that group.....but the preview pics were enticing so I bought. (Huge fan of your Wizard Series, by the way). Their production values aren't quite to your level, but this particular vid is one of my faves. The actress (ignore the braces on her teeth!) comes across as a good, teen Sg (which, by the way, SG is supposed to be). Her expressions as she gets used and humiliated are quite good. And the price is hard to beat @ $19.99 for 27 minutes.

if the scene is written well and acted well,,i can appreciate both,,,i guess if i had to choose i prefer defiant the whole time with forced O

I guess it depends on the story. I like the Docs idea that something unexpected happens which does the trick after she's been deviant before that. But mixing it up sounds ilke the best idea.

For me personally its not really necessary, I'd rather have a few very nice scenes where the heroine worships the villainess's hot body be it either through hypnosis, mind control or whatever or just because she's got no other choice.

But I understand that in some video's its a necessary thing to have a sex scene especially if its male female content

I like them to be defiant. I'd rather see them taken fully aware of what they're doing instead of mind controlled.
Don't care to much about forced O's or the heroine finally enjoying herself. It should be a nightmare though the whole thing.

Defiant till the end! She has been defeated and this is the proof! ..... evil laugh..

Love your idea Logan--can't wait to see what you do with it.
As for the question, I like the defiance at first, but then the eventually submission when the heroine either 1) finds out she likes it, or 2) realizes there is nothing she can do to prevent climaxing.
But what I really like is the heroine cursing and bits of internal monologue as she admits to herself she is either liking what is happening or asking the guy to go harder on her (after all, wouldn't a superheroine need it to be rough?).

Yes Logan it is a great vid from primal and worth checking out.

Primal has done a lot of different and cool things and it was always my dream to see their content with your film style.

she initially is defiant and succumbs to her desires basically turning into a slut halfway through...
All day, everyday.

Okay, I purchased and watched the clip. So i saw 12 minutes of Hitachi, a very basic fight scene, a brief setup, and her being fucked.

I liked the rack device she was on and there was a pretty cool from behind aerial position she was in-- did it not bother anyone else that she was waiting for the cumshaw like a porn star? Or that she gave him her leg when he first entered her? Am I the only one that cares about those little details when filming? lol

I'm not bashing the film-- it was a cool concept-- but I feel like if this is a great clip that maybe I'm trying too hard to make the story setup as intricate and detailed as I do? Thoughts?

Logan while I'm new here, I would say the fact you saw all those things only highlights your attention to detail. Which I don't see as a bad thing, I doubt others will either. Tell your story how you want to tell it.

It might helpful to include a poll in this discussion. -Tyr Garm

I fully agree with Dragon; its much better when the superheroine fights against her impending orgasm and remains proud and defiant, her humiliation and utter defeat is then total. When she starts to enjoy her predicament it just becomes porn. Much better to see her fight and then become drained and helpless by her unwanted pleasure.

Logan wrote:...
I'm not bashing the film-- it was a cool concept-- but I feel like if this is a great clip that maybe I'm trying too hard to make the story setup as intricate and detailed as I do? Thoughts?

Probably. But it's your pornography: you're the pornographer. You should produce the porn you want to. Your vision, not anyone elses. And of course, your talent (actors) will bring what they bring to it, that's what you pay them for.

The theme can be a bit blurry, the fantasy and the reality, I mean we have to live with ourselves don't we ? My fantasy hungry side, sure, wants to have the poor heroine defeated after putting up a fight then reduced to a ragdoll for her conquerors pleasure BUT .... it sure as hell makes me feel comfortable with myself knowing that the heroine is enjoying what is happening to her even though it was uninvited.

Perhaps this duality could be achieved with the heroines spoken dialogue and actions being defiant, and her overheard inner thoughts saying what she is really thinking ?

Anyway, as redmanx says, once the heroine becomes a willing participant the 'heroine v villain' illusion melts and you end up with regular porn, especially if the costume is completely gone. What we really want is to have our heroine remain to the very end of the production.

Defiant all the way.

Logan you are correct the story does not need to be that elaborate to be good, The acting like it could be real makes it good, Most of your stuff which I have seen a lot of get's into very cool fighting scenes and not a lot of set up and it is similiar here as well. Subtle small things make it work well.

Logan wrote:Okay, I purchased and watched the clip. So i saw 12 minutes of Hitachi, a very basic fight scene, a brief setup, and her being fucked.

I liked the rack device she was on and there was a pretty cool from behind aerial position she was in-- did it not bother anyone else that she was waiting for the cumshaw like a porn star? Or that she gave him her leg when he first entered her? Am I the only one that cares about those little details when filming? lol

I'm not bashing the film-- it was a cool concept-- but I feel like if this is a great clip that maybe I'm trying too hard to make the story setup as intricate and detailed as I do? Thoughts?

Yes, those things do bother me. I'd rather see a more realistic storyline and more realistic behavior from the heroine. But it doesn't bother me THAT much and the video makes up for it in other ways.

Logan take a look at my Primal favorite and you will see what I mean.
http://www.superheroineforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=21793

Logan wrote:Okay, I purchased and watched the clip. So i saw 12 minutes of Hitachi, a very basic fight scene, a brief setup, and her being fucked.

I liked the rack device she was on and there was a pretty cool from behind aerial position she was in-- did it not bother anyone else that she was waiting for the cumshaw like a porn star? Or that she gave him her leg when he first entered her? Am I the only one that cares about those little details when filming? lol

I'm not bashing the film-- it was a cool concept-- but I feel like if this is a great clip that maybe I'm trying too hard to make the story setup as intricate and detailed as I do? Thoughts?

She IS a porn "star". Didn't bother me at all. I like minimal fight scenes. These fetish vids are not going win any awards. They are fetish vids. If I want to see a good fight scene I'll watch the Charles Bronson movie "Hard Times". I have no false hopes that any of the actors in any of these fetish vids are good actors. I'm not looking for anything more than a very simple story. In this particular vid I think that the gal did a great job with her expressions. (Her voice is annoying, so being ball-gagged is a plus). She conveyed a sense of defeat and despair. I would also prefer a sybian rather than an hitachi, but maybe that'll happen some day. Also like that she is "nude" but the costume is still on. And the rack was really cool.

"Do you prefer when the Heroine is completely taken and defiant the entire time? Or when she initially is defiant and succumbs to her desires basically turning into a slut halfway through? Or do you like to see it mixed up?"

To be honest, I don't think I've ever truly seen the former. In the end, the heroine is always knocked out partially or too weak to resist in some way at the end of every movie I've seen, 'just waiting to cum,' in a sense. The closest I've seen to the former from you in this context is Defeated Heroines 4: It's all a Haze, where the heroine at least mentally tried to resist (never seen that anywhere else, so props for that!). I know there's the "fear" of crossing into the "rape" zone, but I can't really remember seeing or hearing about that being a problem in any of the Asian superheroine films from producers like Giga or Zen for example (they seem kind of extreme at times).

I know you said the idea was for two m/f films you were going to make, but that doesn't mean you can't take the following into consideration for any further films...

I always imagined a dream scenario to be a film where the villainess and the superheroine (f/f) battles it evenly out for at least half of the movie, and then the villainess slowly starts to overpower the heroine (maybe through some cheap last desperate lowblow at the moment of defeat while having fallen to her knees?), and then she forces herself upon the heroine (the common "pornstar move" I've seen used in many heroine movies up to date is that the heroine's movement gets restricted through either bondage or partially bondage, or that she's completely out (for some reason), which takes away the point. If she's tied up or knocked out, it kind of doesn't matter whether or not she submits to her pleasure because she can't do anything about it regardless). I've yet to see someone try to have the heroine being taken on the floor (for instance), but somehow manages to halt the humiliation that is happening to her by for example being able to get in a blow with a sudden backwards headbutt while being penetrated from behind, and then try to crawl away while the villainess wipes the blood away from her lip or something (if it caused some damage, blood is entirely optional though), only to approach the heroine more aggressively stating that she tried to be nice to her but now she has to do it the hard way - Maybe this time she pulls her hair to control her head for instance - this is of course imagined in a scene with strapon.
What I'm imagining in a sense is kind of like a Hollywood Superheroine fight (excluding the heavy expensive CGI stuff of course), but with the hardcore element over it. It mostly feels like it's either the one (All the PG13 (?) stuff) or the other (the pornmovies), which I think is a missed opportunity.

So yeah, I always prefer the former. There's too many producers out there who flat out focuses on the last, even to the extent that the "heroine" is unable to use her superpowers even before entering the room (or before the movie starts), or being knocked out with one mere hit (that's not even convincingly thrown). It practically just covers up any other lesbian movie out there with the actresses starting out in heroine clothes/latex instead of jeans. This is my take on it though, even if I know a lot of these videos sell. I always leaned more towards the fighting aspect of it as well as there being humiliation that doesn't feel like an ordinary porn movie. To my belief, I don't think there's a lot of other people out there except for you and Alex Bettinger who can successfully pull off what I initially talked about if you actually want to (which also rarely seems to be the case xP - and yeah, I am talking about f/f). I don't know if you know or how well you know Alex, but he's pretty great at at least creating the (completely) taken and defiant the entire time feeling for his f/f videos, but like I said, they are often times "only" softcore.

- Oh, and I go by the name ME92 on another forum. Just thought I would toss that out to make sense with my other comment(s) on there on your upcoming projects.

I like seeing her turning into a slut and then thinking about it in her head

I just can't buy into the whole "forced orgasm" or the "suddenly realising she secretly wanted it to happen" things, although I get that I seem to be in a minority since these have both become pretty much staples of the genre.

I vote for not enjoying it or wanting it at any stage.

Also, she doesn't necessarily have to be defiant until the end, she could end up despairing, panicking, or just laying back and thinking of England, Rye's recent Enthusiastic Participation movie was a good example of the latter I think. There are various reactions depending on the character and story, basically anything as long as she doesn't start acting like it's a fetish video.

EDIT - Except mind control scenes of course, but that's another discussion.

Defiant to the end.

Logan wrote:Hey all! So I've been getting random feedback about sex scenes in hardcore fetish films and I'm curious what the majority is on this...

Do you prefer when the Heroine is completely taken and defiant the entire time? Or when she initially is defiant and succumbs to her desires basically turning into a slut halfway through? Or do you like to see it mixed up?

How about other things that you wish producers did better as a whole? I'm filming 2 hardcore boy-girl scenes this week and I'd like to not make "classic rookie mistakes" out of lack of feedback beforehand

I want to see it mixed up. Some scenes with the heroine being seduced into a slut and other scenes with her resisting while being forced to orgasm. My favorites are when a female villain seduce a heroine into being her slut.

The scene today was hot. Really fell in the "none of the above category" lol when you watch it, if you share any of my tastes, you're welcome.

For those who saw Crimson Climax, I feel like I topped that one today with Brooklyn Chase... So excited to get it edited!!!

Logan wrote:The scene today was hot. Really fell in the "none of the above category" lol when you watch it, if you share any of my tastes, you're welcome.

For those who saw Crimson Climax, I feel like I topped that one today with Brooklyn Chase... So excited to get it edited!!!

"None of the above category?" So she wasn't defiant at any time during the scene?

Eh...it doesn't matter I suppose. I'll never see it!

theScribbler wrote:

Logan wrote:The scene today was hot. Really fell in the "none of the above category" lol when you watch it, if you share any of my tastes, you're welcome.

For those who saw Crimson Climax, I feel like I topped that one today with Brooklyn Chase... So excited to get it edited!!!

"None of the above category?" So she wasn't defiant at any time during the scene?

Eh...it doesn't matter I suppose. I'll never see it!

OK...

Logan wrote:

theScribbler wrote:

Logan wrote:The scene today was hot. Really fell in the "none of the above category" lol when you watch it, if you share any of my tastes, you're welcome.

For those who saw Crimson Climax, I feel like I topped that one today with Brooklyn Chase... So excited to get it edited!!!

"None of the above category?" So she wasn't defiant at any time during the scene?

Eh...it doesn't matter I suppose. I'll never see it!

OK...

Cause why would I, or anyone else see it, if it has "none of the above" elements discussed in this thread?

Logan wrote:The scene today was hot. Really fell in the "none of the above category" lol when you watch it, if you share any of my tastes, you're welcome.

For those who saw Crimson Climax, I feel like I topped that one today with Brooklyn Chase... So excited to get it edited!!

By that, do you mean it contains none of the elements people have mentioned above?

hiddenevil wrote:

Logan wrote:The scene today was hot. Really fell in the "none of the above category" lol when you watch it, if you share any of my tastes, you're welcome.

For those who saw Crimson Climax, I feel like I topped that one today with Brooklyn Chase... So excited to get it edited!!

By that, do you mean it contains none of the elements people have mentioned above?

I just mean it wasn't definitively anything stated... I guess "all of the above" could have been substituted out in it's place... The scenario involved (the 2nd half at least) Brooklyn's Wonder Woman character 'Divinity' searching for 'Serenity' who was in Crimson Climax... basically, she realizes her only way out is to "please" Red Menace... she tries to trick him twice and ends up engaging in sexual acts (plenty of defiance before and some during) until she tries to double-cross him during sex and he gets pissed and sexually "breaks" her after she states she has control of him sexually. Then it turns into him basically telling her she would be the mother of his children to start a new Army of Amazons as his children... as a summary...