My Issues with Rey in The Force Awakens

[LadySapphire]

I like many millions enjoyed my viewing of Star Wars Episode 7. After my second viewing I realised something, there were no truly great moments. No great light saber duel, bit of dialogue, or even epic character moment. Even the introduction of Luke was lack luster. His exile alone has come to not sit right with me. Why would the same character who ignored Obi-wan and Yoda's protest to stay and complete training in order to leave and save his friends run into exile when such a threat as the first order existed? The man who never gave up on his father who he MET in episode 5 now seemingly has given up all hope and effort to redeem his nephew? Anyway I'm getting off track. My main focus is on our new heroine, Rey.

Now let me say that the concept of Rey excited me greatly leading up to the movie. The promise of a strong female lead in a franchise so beloved by many was a big draw for me. Little did I know that JJ abrams and Disney allowed past criticisms and political correctness ruin the potential for Rey's character. Before anyone gets mad just hear me out.

The following are issues I had with Rey:

1. Ill just start with my biggest and most glaring issue. Rey NEVER loses. Even at the expensive of other characters and even future arcs. Case in point, defeating Kylo. Now I know it was Kylo minutes after killing his dad, weakened by conflict and a powerful bow-caster wound. Heres why that doesn't hold up for me. Finn is able to wound him when a Ren who allegedly defeated Luke (according to canon novels) and who is known as the Jedi Killer among the first order. He was 23 , thats right 23 when he turned on Luke so anyone saying he never had enough training is sorely misguided. So fact is injured or not, Finn should have been defeated in seconds. Now back to Rey. Our great PC supposed feminist heroine who doesn't need to hold Finn's hand and beats 3 enemies with ease, and knows more about the Millennium Falcon than Han itself "I bypassed the power converter" (or something like that) CRINGE. Just poor safe writing and a forced moment. Our "heroine" predictably and disappointingly defeats a fully trained former Jedi and current apprentice of Snoke. This in my opinion, is a narrative blunder. Not only does it affirm the PC Mary sue perception of her (MARY SUE IS NOT SEXIST DAISY! It was a term coined by a woman..) , It also ruins any payoff of Kylo Ren's defeat in episode 9. So she just beats him again? BORING.
A strong female character is not a man rejecting, over powered heroine who never is in danger and beats up everyone who is in her way. A strong female and well , a strong protagonist in general is one who perceives despite heavy obstacles. They stand up after falling a few times. Luke literally wins by losing. He loses in 5 and even has to be saved by his father in 6. The reason those moments are beloved is because despite obstacles and loses, Luke never gave up hope and his persistence is what redeemed his father. Not giving up and having faith toppled an empire.

2. My next issue is Rey having the ability to do advanced force feats with no recent, if any at all, training. Do you seriously expect us to believe that she can perform Jedi mind tricks on her own and get inside an advanced force user in kylo's head during the interrogation? Or that she out force pulls Kylo Ren to grab the light saber when Luke needed training and even struggled to get it during the wampa scene? WHAT THE HELL DOES LUKE HAVE TO TEACH HER??? The real kicker is, according to her chat with Han Solo on the millennium falcon, she didn't even know that the force was real. Remember? "It's true all of it.." How the hell does she even know what a mind trick is or how to use the force to read someones mind? UGHHH I truly was hoping it was going to be Luke who caught the saber when it zoomed past Kylo. A perfect entrance and someone who logically could defeat kylo because he HAS TRAINING. When Daisy (i act by smiling in serious scenes and keep my eyes wide all film) Riddley caught it I remember saying "oh" on my first viewing and sinking in my seat face palming by the third viewing. Such lazy writing and now nobody will take Kylo seriously as a villain.

3. Probably the saddest and potientially damaging issue in all this, the combination of the first and second issue has and will result in the undermining of the acheivements of past Star Wars protagonists. Rey can already beat kylo and perform things that took Luke 3 movies to learn. Man that Luke was real weak huh?If this naive scavenger can do it with no training than Luke must have been a royal screw up. Not to mention she defeated the guy who killed many jedi and drove the infamous Luke Skywalker into hiding with no training despite him having full range of motion. Man that Luke guy is a fraud. Man she knows how to fix the famous ship even better than Han Solo. She can fly it masterfully despite never having flown it. (Luke didnt even know what the buttons were look it up. And he was considered a great pilot) That Han Solo is overrated. Do you guys see where im going?


Anyway just my repressed concerns. I truly believe the only solution now is to pull a twist such as Ren coming to the light and Rey going to the Dark. Hell imagine the moment when they show us that all this time Ren has been speaking to Anakins Ghost and that they are embedded in the first order to destroy it from within. How cool would that be? Luke in exile to keep Snoke from sensing it. Also could be a plausible reason for letting Rey win as to prevent Snoke from getting his hands on her at the end of TFA. Cut to a scene where all of Lukes students emerge from the temple after faking their deaths to embed Kylo in the first order. A flash back of the Han death scene where Han gives him a nod of approval as he knows what must be done to maintain his cover. That would be my pitch for it!

What do you guys think about my issues with the film? I want to hear others opinions!

[tallyho]

You really need to get out more.

[LadySapphire]

You really need to get out more.

Don't I know it ...

[tallyho]

There were far bigger issues with the film as a whole than a couple of character inconsistencies I wouldn't fret over it, it was just a film and a mediocre film at that.

[Heroine Addict]

The ability to harness the Force is essentially a super power. It has no basis in real science, so our understanding of how it works comes from six movies and numerous spin-offs with varying degrees of canonicity.

My reading of The Force Awakens was that Rey was shown as being unusually adept because it sets up a mystery for this new trilogy. We have the unworthy tantrum-throwing heir being humiliated by this strange girl. I'm not convinced it's a matter of Mary Sue getting special treatment due to "PC" or "SJWs". My own conclusion is that the emergence of this new breed of Jedi (or whatever) is the whole point of TFA.

We've seen something like 60 years of Jedi history so far. Most of it from the perspective of one family. It seems very blinkered to limit the made-up science of a made-up far away galaxy to what we've seen before.

[swampy170]

But, you are being sexist.

Your opinion of Rey's force mastery is essentially "she can't possibly be that good - she's a girl" - hence the Mary Sue comment.

Rey's spent years in Exile, in a place where the Millenium Falcon has resided for years also - a ship she's aware of and obviously studied while it's been sitting. Hence her reticence to immediately choose the ship as a means of escape. Every owner has called it a hunk of junk....

Further subtext is given to her force mastery also, her staff fighting ability is obviously significant - a skill utilised by force users pre-lightsaber.

She clearly has some awareness of the force pre-TFA, while having no formal training her heritage would seem to be the culmination of a family of highly force-sensitive people. Further, she's been fending for herself for years and has exceptional piloting skills - we don't know her full back story, however her force sensitivity combined with obviously difficult life circumstances is the perfect crucible for forming a master of the force.

While we only see her start to harness the higher force functions in TFA, she has obviously been deeply immersed since a small child.

[tallyho]

You ALL need to get out more.


Yes, I'm an asshole.

[Dragon1]

I happen to agree with the points the Lady has made and thought the same things when I watched that abomination of a remake of episode 4 and every element was worse.

[Mr. X]

I agree LadySapphire and add

4. Does Rey even play an integral part in the story
5. Can Rey be replaced with pretty much anyone and not have an effect on the story.

[Mr. X]

But, you are being sexist.

Don't resort to that kind of argument. It doesn't work.

Rey's spent years in Exile, in a place where the Millenium Falcon has resided for years also - a ship she's aware of and obviously studied while it's been sitting. Hence her reticence to immediately choose the ship as a means of escape. Every owner has called it a hunk of junk....

Further subtext is given to her force mastery also, her staff fighting ability is obviously significant - a skill utilised by force users pre-lightsaber.

I disagree strongly here. First off Luke had some skills but he had to go through training to unlock force abilities. Even after training with Yoda he nearly got killed in his first fight with Vadar. Sure she may have some little hints at force ability but hardly enough to beat Kilo who trained uder Luke, was Luke's best student and who killed all Luke's students and scared Luke away and got some training from Snokes. Rey should have been at least mutilated like Luke was. Killed at best.

Also if she did have some skills then she's pretty pathetic at surviving. If she has fighting skills she could have traded that for food/money. If she had pilot and engineer skills enough to flight the MF expertly and repair it then she could have easily gotten work at the port fixing ships. If survival is all it takes to be a Jedi master then every homeless person in America is a Jedi Master.

While we only see her start to harness the higher force functions in TFA, she has obviously been deeply immersed since a small child.

No evidence of this at all in the story.Again plenty of people can fight and not have force powers.

[Ninja J.]

I think P.C. is becoming overused these days. Seems like whenever there's a character or just something we don't like in general, we just chalk it up to P.C. but that's another issue I guess. Onto the issues:

Honestly, your post wasn't even really about Luke, but of all the characters he's the one I have the biggest issue with and he's barely in it. The biggest issue is where the fuck is he? The galaxy is going to hell, billions are dying or dead because of a student he trained went bad and he's on another planet hiding like a bitch. He went from a kid who couldn't wait to join the fight against the Empire that he played no part in (so he thought). But in Force Awakens you could argue Kylo Ren's fall was his fault and Luke goes all EMO. I think Luke is far more damaged than Rey or Kylo or Finn ever could be. But on to Rey:

1. Ill just start with my biggest and most glaring issue. Rey NEVER loses...

I think this is a sign of a weak unrealistic poorly written character. It makes it hard to root for someone when there is never a sense of urgency or danger to the main character. This is a problem I think will be (and should be) addressed in "The Last Jedi." I think Rey will lose and lose hard, like Luke did in 5.

As far as Finn, he really doesn't last very long against Kylo. Can we be honest about that? I can assume, from the programming and what we saw from his battle against that one Storm Trooper, that Finn is adept in other weapons besides just blasters alone. So, the fact that he lasted 30 seconds instead of 5 against Kylo I don't have a hard time believing.

Our "heroine" predictably and disappointingly defeats a fully trained former Jedi and current apprentice of Snoke. This in my opinion, is a narrative blunder. Not only does it affirm the PC Mary sue perception of her (MARY SUE IS NOT SEXIST DAISY! It was a term coined by a woman..) , It also ruins any payoff of Kylo Ren's defeat in episode 9. So she just beats him again? BORING.

While I agree it poses a potential problem to have your main villain already defeated in the story and that needs to be addressed. However, again let's be honest, it is never implied that Kylo is or was a fully trained Jedi. If he was, then why does Snoke need to "Complete his training"? I think Rey will fail and Kylo will get some credibility (that he lost in Force Awakens) back in this next movie. I'm not arguing that Rey needs to look more vulnerable and Kylo needs to look a lot stronger from a story/character perspective. I just think this will happen in the next film, so I'm not worried about it, yet. If this was a stand alone movie then I these concerns would be a lot more warranted in my opinion. And if these issues aren't addressed in the next films then they are likely to suck as much as the prequels. While I see Rey defeating Kylo as an issue from a creative standpoint, I don't find Rey defeating Kylo that unbelievable.

My next issue is Rey having the ability to do advanced force feats with no recent, if any at all, training.

This argument doesn't hold up for me. Firstly, it's space magic. We are given only vague explanation on how the Force actually works. Secondly, what is Jedi Training? Luke seemingly learns more on his own than he did moving rocks with Yoda. Thirdly, where is all this "training" that supposedly Luke had that everyone is saying he received. Luke is able to go Rambo on an entire Empire battalion on the Death Star, deflect blaster shots blindfolded after holding a lightsaber for only the second time in his life, fly an x-wing the first time ever and shoot a torpedo down a hole that the Rebels' best pilots couldn't do, pull out a lightsaber stuck in ice with telekinesis, see a ghost, all before even meeting Yoda. So, I'm not seeing all the "training" Luke supposedly had. Seeing Rey able to do certain fantastic feats seemingly isn't all that out of the norm for one who can wield the force with or without "training." Also, touching Vader's lightsaber seems to have sparked some sort of mysterious effect on her. Maybe that "Awoken" some force powers in her? I don't know. We don't know. It wasn't explained yet. Hopefully, it will be. Until then criticizing The Force is a silly notion when no one knows how it works or what its limits are.

3. Your problems with Rey defeating Kylo stem also from the notion that Kylo defeated Luke, but that event is actually never shown. We don't know how this event went down. Did Luke and Kylo even duel? It's not known. By the way, people keep forgetting that Kylo wasn't alone during the massacre in the visions we see from T.F.A. He is standing with a dozen other dark jedi, presumably the Knights of Ren. So we can't assume Kylo killed every jedi that Luke trained on his own. We also don't know how the betrayal went down. If it was like a "Red Wedding" from Game of Thrones betrayal that Luke never saw coming, it's totally plausible that Kylo's surprising betrayal, even with incomplete training, was enough to defeat a caught off guard Jedi Master and his trainees. As for Rey, knowing more about the Falcon than Han, I'm not sure where you're getting that. From one bypass? She's a scavenger, it's not unbelievable that she knew something about the Falcon that Han didn't know or didn't think of at that split second. I don't think Rey is undermining the previous characters whatsoever. You're basing a lot of your argument on hypothesis from one movie. There's too much we don't know yet.

Anyway just my repressed concerns. I truly believe the only solution now is to pull a twist such as Ren coming to the light and Rey going to the Dark. Hell imagine the moment when they show us that all this time Ren has been speaking to Anakins Ghost and that they are embedded in the first order to destroy it from within. How cool would that be? Luke in exile to keep Snoke from sensing it. Also could be a plausible reason for letting Rey win as to prevent Snoke from getting his hands on her at the end of TFA. Cut to a scene where all of Lukes students emerge from the temple after faking their deaths to embed Kylo in the first order. A flash back of the Han death scene where Han gives him a nod of approval as he knows what must be done to maintain his cover. That would be my pitch for it!

I actually think this is pretty awesome!!!

Point is there's too much we don't know based on one movie to criticize Rey or Kylo or Finn or Snoke or Luke etc. Despite all the previous movies, we really don't know how the Force works either. I get that Rey defeating Kylo probably wasn't a great idea from a creative standpoint but I don't see anything that Rey or even Finn, does in The Force Awakens, fall out of the realm of the possibilities of a Star Wars Universe that has The Force can't cop out.

[Mr. X]

yes but if the explanation becomes "the force can do anything" then the story just devolves into relativism and nihilism. Anyone can do anything for no real reason is not a good story.

Unless of course you're then just making a flat out magic or horror movie, then it doesn't matter cause now you're telling a story through emotions vs reason. So one could ask if Star Wars is even sci fi anymore.

Same with prometheus. As sci fi its a pretty bad movie. But as horror it makes sense since its not about reason, its about fear.

As for the sexism claims, if Rey was a guy (which BTW she very well could have been since her identity seems pretty irrelevant to the story) I would have the same views. Golden boy characters are badly written characters.

[LadySapphire]

But, you are being sexist.

Your opinion of Rey's force mastery is essentially "she can't possibly be that good - she's a girl" - hence the Mary Sue comment.

Rey's spent years in Exile, in a place where the Millenium Falcon has resided for years also - a ship she's aware of and obviously studied while it's been sitting. Hence her reticence to immediately choose the ship as a means of escape. Every owner has called it a hunk of junk....

Further subtext is given to her force mastery also, her staff fighting ability is obviously significant - a skill utilised by force users pre-lightsaber.

She clearly has some awareness of the force pre-TFA, while having no formal training her heritage would seem to be the culmination of a family of highly force-sensitive people. Further, she's been fending for herself for years and has exceptional piloting skills - we don't know her full back story, however her force sensitivity combined with obviously difficult life circumstances is the perfect crucible for forming a master of the force.

While we only see her start to harness the higher force functions in TFA, she has obviously been deeply immersed since a small child.

Aside from the obvious fact that i am girl, the Mary Sue and Gary sue are like John and Jane Doe. Do you even know the definition of a mary sue????

"A Mary Sue is an idealized and seemingly perfect fictional character, a young or low-rank person who saves the day through unrealistic abilities, sometimes with the intent to inspire young or marginalized people and show them that even they can have as great of a potential as leading characters."

There is no sexism invloved. She has no awareness of the force pre tfa. Watch the scene when she first speaks to han about the force.

[LadySapphire]

yes but if the explanation becomes "the force can do anything" then the story just devolves into relativism and nihilism. Anyone can do anything for no real reason is not a good story.

Unless of course you're then just making a flat out magic or horror movie, then it doesn't matter cause now you're telling a story through emotions vs reason. So one could ask if Star Wars is even sci fi anymore.

Same with Prometheus. As sci fi its a pretty bad movie. But as horror it makes sense since its not about reason, its about fear.

As for the sexism claims, if Rey was a guy (which BTW she very well could have been since her identity seems pretty irrelevant to the story) I would have the same views. Golden boy characters are badly written characters.

Yea you are making great points. Just because you can just chalk everything up to force magic doesnt mean that is all of a sudden going to make it compelling. Think about it. Its no longer impressive to see a person use force abilities if everyone can just magically do it. It is unfair to all the past jedi. BOTH FEMALE AND MALE. I never thought id be called sexist against myself.. haha.

And yea thats a great point Mr.X , there is nothing special or compelling about Rey. Your right you could replace her with just about anyone. That pains me because ive been dying for a badass female jedi in the main films.

[LadySapphire]

I mean how cool was it to see Luke use a jedi mind trick in episode 6 at Jabba's? It was an awesome character moment and payoff. He was now a Jedi and to the audience that watched him train and fall, that meant something. Hell even the prequels did a good job of showing that even in the prime of a Jedi not everyone was fit to become one. If they were they needed to be trained from a young age. BECAUSE ITS SUPPOSED TO TAKE TIME TO MASTER THE FORCE.

[Mr. X]

Yea you are making great points. Just because you can just chalk everything up to force magic doesnt mean that is all of a sudden going to make it compelling. Think about it. Its no longer impressive to see a person use force abilities if everyone can just magically do it. It is unfair to all the past jedi. BOTH FEMALE AND MALE. I never thought id be called sexist against myself.. haha.

And yea thats a great point Mr.X , there is nothing special or compelling about Rey. Your right you could replace her with just about anyone. That pains me because ive been dying for a badass female jedi in the main films.

It also destroys the entire theme of mentor-ship and training that ALL the films had which was huge part of the plots. The force takes YEARS to use properly and even Anakin who was probably one of the strongest force weilders got his ass handed to him by Lord Doku and he was helped by Obiwan. Heck it took three Jedi including Yoda to fight Doku.

Rey hears about the force and like 4 hours later is beating Luke's best student. Yeah that's not story telling and it would suck just as much if Rey was a guy. Now one thing I could see is if Ren dropped his guard cause he was trying to "score" or something and she sucker punched him, that would make sense. Now granted Rey didn't blow up the whole death star like Luke did but he only did that with a lucky shot where as Rey was expertly flying the Falcon without ever being in it.

In fact we had to deal with this in sci fi in the 70s and 80s. These golden boy heroes who could magically do stuff. Made the stories horrible.

[LadySapphire]

Yea you are making great points. Just because you can just chalk everything up to force magic doesnt mean that is all of a sudden going to make it compelling. Think about it. Its no longer impressive to see a person use force abilities if everyone can just magically do it. It is unfair to all the past jedi. BOTH FEMALE AND MALE. I never thought id be called sexist against myself.. haha.

And yea thats a great point Mr.X , there is nothing special or compelling about Rey. Your right you could replace her with just about anyone. That pains me because ive been dying for a badass female jedi in the main films.

It also destroys the entire theme of mentor-ship and training that ALL the films had which was huge part of the plots. The force takes YEARS to use properly and even Anakin who was probably one of the strongest force weilders got his ass handed to him by Lord Doku and he was helped by Obiwan. Heck it took three Jedi including Yoda to fight Doku.

Rey hears about the force and like 4 hours later is beating Luke's best student. Yeah that's not story telling and it would suck just as much if Rey was a guy. Now one thing I could see is if Ren dropped his guard cause he was trying to "score" or something and she sucker punched him, that would make sense. Now granted Rey didn't blow up the whole death star like Luke did but he only did that with a lucky shot where as Rey was expertly flying the Falcon without ever being in it.

In fact we had to deal with this in sci fi in the 70s and 80s. These golden boy heroes who could magically do stuff. Made the stories horrible.

Yea the master student point is a good one. WHAT THE HELL IS LUKE MEANT TO TEACH HER NOW IN THE LAST JEDI?

[Mr. X]

Also look at Rogue One and the Asian guy who was a force weilder. Again it probably took him years and years, his whole life to get to that level of expertise and he wasn't even in league enough to be a Jedi.

[LadySapphire]

Also look at Rogue One and the Asian guy who was a force weilder. Again it probably took him years and years, his whole life to get to that level of expertise and he wasn't even in league enough to be a Jedi.

Yup. The force was never meant to be a "cop out" "plot device" or "catch all".

[LadySapphire]

With this video, I rest my case:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvDso1B2_I8

[Ninja J.]

yes but if the explanation becomes "the force can do anything" then the story just devolves into relativism and nihilism. Anyone can do anything for no real reason is not a good story.

It's never implied anywhere that "anyone" can just use the Force but I agree the storytelling could be better. I think it's just weird that now when someone who is clearly Force Sensitive uses the Force it's unrealistic but when Luke did it or baby Anakin, it was just accepted. Again, not saying it's great storytelling, and yes it cheapens the Force and perhaps defeats the purpose of mentoring, I'm just saying why I never have and am still not convinced Rey is a Mary Sue. Now, if Rey was Jynn, a non Force user, then yes I wouldn't agree 100%.

[LadySapphire]

yes but if the explanation becomes "the force can do anything" then the story just devolves into relativism and nihilism. Anyone can do anything for no real reason is not a good story.

It's never implied anywhere that "anyone" can just use the Force but I agree the storytelling could be better. I think it's just weird that now when someone who is clearly Force Sensitive uses the Force it's unrealistic but when Luke did it or baby Anakin, it was just accepted. Again, not saying it's great storytelling, and yes it cheapens the Force and perhaps defeats the purpose of mentoring, I'm just saying why I never have and am still not convinced Rey is a Mary Sue. Now, if Rey was Jynn, a non Force user, then yes I wouldn't agree 100%.

Rey being a mary sue is not limited to the force instances. I recommend you give the vid I linked a shot. It breaks it down pretty well. Luke and baby anakin did not know how to do ANY thing with the force until someone taught them. There connection with the force made them good at things but it didnt make them unbeatable and it didnt just make them able to do advanced force techniques.

Its not that she felt the force or used the force. Its how she used it and how inconsistent it is with the established logic of the star wars universe. She shouldn't even know what half the things she did are. If everyone who was force sensitive could do mind tricks, force pull, force mind reading naturally than it makes the Jedi - padawan and sith - apprentice structures (which are the backbone of star wars) completely and utterly obsolete. What exactly will we get to see her learn now? What exactly will she overcome? If episode 8 has her suddenly just lose it still doesn't undo the cheapening of what it means to be a Jedi. Jedi were supposed to learn and train for years. Im not saying she cant be a fast learner and natural with the force, but do it in a way that makes some sense you know? Also it wont make sense now if suddenly she becomes vulnerable and knocked down by obstacles in episode 8. It will just create more plot holes. I dont know.

[LadySapphire]

I do have an idea of how it can be all turned around:

Have a twist such as Ren coming to the light and Rey going to the Dark. Hell imagine the moment when they show us that all this time Ren has been speaking to Anakins Ghost and that they are embedded in the first order to destroy it from within. How cool would that be? Luke in exile to keep Snoke from sensing it. Also could be a plausible reason for letting Rey win as to prevent Snoke from getting his hands on her at the end of TFA. A flash back of the Han death scene where Han gives Kylo a nod of approval as he knows what must be done to maintain his cover. Cut to a scene where all of Luke's students are being slaughtered and we see that a young girl (rey) has killed them all. Luke not having the heart to put her down instead decides to exile her on Jakku. After defeating Kylo the final scene in episode 8 is Kylo leaving with Luke and Rey leaving with snoke after finding out Kylo was a mole.

[Heroine Addict]

Yea you are making great points. Just because you can just chalk everything up to force magic doesnt mean that is all of a sudden going to make it compelling. Think about it. Its no longer impressive to see a person use force abilities if everyone can just magically do it. It is unfair to all the past jedi. BOTH FEMALE AND MALE. I never thought id be called sexist against myself.. haha.

And yea thats a great point Mr.X , there is nothing special or compelling about Rey. Your right you could replace her with just about anyone. That pains me because ive been dying for a badass female jedi in the main films.

It also destroys the entire theme of mentor-ship and training that ALL the films had which was huge part of the plots. The force takes YEARS to use properly and even Anakin who was probably one of the strongest force weilders got his ass handed to him by Lord Doku and he was helped by Obiwan. Heck it took three Jedi including Yoda to fight Doku.

Rey hears about the force and like 4 hours later is beating Luke's best student. Yeah that's not story telling and it would suck just as much if Rey was a guy. Now one thing I could see is if Ren dropped his guard cause he was trying to "score" or something and she sucker punched him, that would make sense. Now granted Rey didn't blow up the whole death star like Luke did but he only did that with a lucky shot where as Rey was expertly flying the Falcon without ever being in it.

In fact we had to deal with this in sci fi in the 70s and 80s. These golden boy heroes who could magically do stuff. Made the stories horrible.

Luke's training consisted of a few hours with Obi Wan, followed by a few days with Yoda and then one final visit to watch Yoda die. That was all we were ever shown.

Luke used telekinesis on Hoth without ever even seeing it before. He became an ace fighter pilot who could destroy the Death Star, despite his only previous experience being in non-military vehicles and something or other to do with shooting "wamp rats".

Mentorship and training really became a much bigger issue in the prequels, where Yoda observes that young Anakin is already too old to begin. So, taking the films in numerical order, we start with Jedi requiring training and mentoring from infancy until well into adulthood in The Phantom Menace. Then, by the time we get to Empire and Jedi, a few days is adequate. Even if we assume years of unshown and unmentioned training with blue ghost Obi Wan, Luke still only had a tiny fraction of the training which Jedi were supposed to receive and even young Anakin was too old to receive properly.

It's already established that the amount of training that a Jedi needs was cut down for Anakin and drastically cut down for Luke. No wonder Luke was a bit crap as a mentor. As we've already gone from "Force-sensitive Space Jesus requires less training" to "Son of Space Jesus requires hardly any training", it's not a huge leap to suggest that another Force-sensitive miracle child may have a load of midichlorians (or whatever) and perform certain feats with no training.

One thing that struck me about Rey is that she picks up skills almost by osmosis. Is she similar to Peter Petrelli from Heroes in that respect? Is just being near a Jedi enough to transfer some abilities? If so, maybe she's something much more dangerous than the Jedi or Sith?

[Abductorenmadrid]

During the lightsaber battle Kylo hounds Rey for the best part of it, pursuing her and forcing her to basically parry most of the way until she is driven to the cliff's edge. It's when Kylo says that Rey needs a teacher and that he could show her the ways of the force that she suddenly changes. Seemingly tapping into the force which she has just been reminded of she goes on to kick his butt. How close she was to being on the dark side of things you will have to decide for yourself but there certainly seemed to be that "look" about her character which give me the impression she was in danger of falling to the dark side. The snarl as she breaks from the edge of the cliff and circling of Kylo's prone body when she beats him to the ground certainly seemed more dark than light.

Going into the the "what if" territory, from memory we are only told from Rey's recollections she was abandoned as a young girl. What if she had already been given some jedi training before that but for whatever reason she had been made to forget? Her ability to use the force, even accidentally would still be there, but she evidently seemed to have problems joining the dots between what she could do and why she could do them, almost like a conditioned response not to. Perhaps then Kylo's words triggered something to unlock that disconnection, maybe just temporarily?

[Heroine Addict]

But, you are being sexist.

Your opinion of Rey's force mastery is essentially "she can't possibly be that good - she's a girl" - hence the Mary Sue comment.

Rey's spent years in Exile, in a place where the Millenium Falcon has resided for years also - a ship she's aware of and obviously studied while it's been sitting. Hence her reticence to immediately choose the ship as a means of escape. Every owner has called it a hunk of junk....

Further subtext is given to her force mastery also, her staff fighting ability is obviously significant - a skill utilised by force users pre-lightsaber.

She clearly has some awareness of the force pre-TFA, while having no formal training her heritage would seem to be the culmination of a family of highly force-sensitive people. Further, she's been fending for herself for years and has exceptional piloting skills - we don't know her full back story, however her force sensitivity combined with obviously difficult life circumstances is the perfect crucible for forming a master of the force.

While we only see her start to harness the higher force functions in TFA, she has obviously been deeply immersed since a small child.

Aside from the obvious fact that i am girl, the Mary Sue and Gary sue are like John and Jane Doe. Do you even know the definition of a mary sue????

"A Mary Sue is an idealized and seemingly perfect fictional character, a young or low-rank person who saves the day through unrealistic abilities, sometimes with the intent to inspire young or marginalized people and show them that even they can have as great of a potential as leading characters."

There is no sexism invloved. She has no awareness of the force pre tfa. Watch the scene when she first speaks to han about the force.

Well, the issue here is that accusations of Mary Sue are almost exclusively directed at female characters. Gary Stu (and similar) may exist as a potential equivalent for male characters, but hardly anyone is actually using them.

It's a false equivalence, which doesn't acknowledge usage and context. A bit like the people who think the N-word is equivalent to Cracker, as they're both racial epithets. Ignoring the history of those terms. (I'm not accusing you of wanting to use the N-word. Just pointing out that a term doesn't lose its historical connotations just because a little-used "equivalent" term for another group exists.)

See how there's virtually no outrage about Doctor Strange being a Gary Stu (or whatever). Even though he comes along as a grown adult and takes a relatively short time to master arts that people spend a lifetime learning. See how there's virtually no outrage about Neo being a Gary Stu. Even though he comes along as a grown adult and takes a relatively short time to master arts that people spend a lifetime learning. The concept of a Jesusy "chosen one" is hardly new. Yet it seems to be controversial when it's a girl.

What a strange conversation to be having on a forum where we discuss superheroines who usually have some "gift" that makes them better than mere mortals. It might be incongruous if a girl with super powers just appeared in something like Hacksaw Ridge. (Although the hero's truly remarkable feats were attributed in the movie to his religious faith.) However, we're talking about a galaxy where a powerful Force-user can cause a virgin birth and can conceal a massive Jedi genocide conspiracy from Jedi Knights who are supposedly mega-intuitive. The huge inflation of Jedi/Sith powers in these movies started long before Rey came along.

[LadySapphire]

But, you are being sexist.

Your opinion of Rey's force mastery is essentially "she can't possibly be that good - she's a girl" - hence the Mary Sue comment.

Rey's spent years in Exile, in a place where the Millenium Falcon has resided for years also - a ship she's aware of and obviously studied while it's been sitting. Hence her reticence to immediately choose the ship as a means of escape. Every owner has called it a hunk of junk....

Further subtext is given to her force mastery also, her staff fighting ability is obviously significant - a skill utilised by force users pre-lightsaber.

She clearly has some awareness of the force pre-TFA, while having no formal training her heritage would seem to be the culmination of a family of highly force-sensitive people. Further, she's been fending for herself for years and has exceptional piloting skills - we don't know her full back story, however her force sensitivity combined with obviously difficult life circumstances is the perfect crucible for forming a master of the force.

While we only see her start to harness the higher force functions in TFA, she has obviously been deeply immersed since a small child.

Aside from the obvious fact that i am girl, the Mary Sue and Gary sue are like John and Jane Doe. Do you even know the definition of a mary sue????

"A Mary Sue is an idealized and seemingly perfect fictional character, a young or low-rank person who saves the day through unrealistic abilities, sometimes with the intent to inspire young or marginalized people and show them that even they can have as great of a potential as leading characters."

There is no sexism invloved. She has no awareness of the force pre tfa. Watch the scene when she first speaks to han about the force.

Well, the issue here is that accusations of Mary Sue are almost exclusively directed at female characters. Gary Stu (and similar) may exist as a potential equivalent for male characters, but hardly anyone is actually using them.

It's a false equivalence, which doesn't acknowledge usage and context. A bit like the people who think the N-word is equivalent to Cracker, as they're both racial epithets. Ignoring the history of those terms. (I'm not accusing you of wanting to use the N-word. Just pointing out that a term doesn't lose its historical connotations just because a little-used "equivalent" term for another group exists.)

See how there's virtually no outrage about Doctor Strange being a Gary Stu (or whatever). Even though he comes along as a grown adult and takes a relatively short time to master arts that people spend a lifetime learning. See how there's virtually no outrage about Neo being a Gary Stu. Even though he comes along as a grown adult and takes a relatively short time to master arts that people spend a lifetime learning. The concept of a Jesusy "chosen one" is hardly new. Yet it seems to be controversial when it's a girl.

What a strange conversation to be having on a forum where we discuss superheroines who usually have some "gift" that makes them better than mere mortals. It might be incongruous if a girl with super powers just appeared in something like Hacksaw Ridge. (Although the hero's truly remarkable feats were attributed in the movie to his religious faith.) However, we're talking about a galaxy where a powerful Force-user can cause a virgin birth and can conceal a massive Jedi genocide conspiracy from Jedi Knights who are supposedly mega-intuitive. The huge inflation of Jedi/Sith powers in these movies started long before Rey came along.

First off, Dr. Strange sucks for the same reasons you spoke of. Second, people are using Mary Sue because Rey is a female. If she were a male in the same place it would not change anything. Thats the problem, she is so flat as a character she is easily interchangeable. Guy or Girl the problems remain. The facts are that she does things that make no sense when looking at what is established in the universe already. The "its not like a non force user just used the force" doesnt apply because im talking in terms of force users.

The jesusy chosen one is a straw man argument and in fact in the case of Anakin and Luke, it is told to us in their background that they are chosen ones. The movie just gives us rey who can do all these nonsensical things with no real back up or explanation.

THE ISSUE IS NOT THAT SHE CAN DO IT....THE ISSUE IS THAT IT MAKES NO SENSE. Like in the video above ill use the example of Batman.

Batman would be the ultimate Gary Stu and often does unbelievable feats and figures things out no one else can. HE SOUNDS like a Gary Stu but hes not because his writers established logical reasons and backround. He traveled the world training and learning. He is a billionaire so he can afford all these gadgets. He was born with an anaylical mind and is gifted etc.

With Rey they give no logical reason for her being able to fix and fly a ship better than Han solo, There is no logical reason as to why she needs zero training to do things in the force that require a teacher despite not knowing THAT THE FORCE EVEN EXISTED...i mean wth. She never even held a saber before facing kylo...

Imagine if Batman was just a rich guy who decided to put on a suit and suddenly can do all the things Batman can do with no explanation. It would make no sense.

Luke needed teachings and he went through lots of trial and error in the original trilogy. He loses his hand, he fails to mind trick Jabba, he leaves his training on Degobah early (which btw IN CANON it is explained that time passes differently there due to the way the force is on the planet or something) to save his friends but ends up needing to be saved by them. He needed Hans help to blow up the death star etc.

My main point being not only did i miss out on a female lead I could get behind, they also cheapened every other moment i loved about star wars and now everyone else look like a bunch of fools. Not in an impressive way. In a way that one badly written movie cheapens the rest of the saga. Even going forward. No one will cheer when Rey wins again in episode 9.

Tell me did anyone here have one moment where they felt scared or a moment to cheer about when it came to Rey's character or even the rest of the film? The examples in the film speak for themselves. These are not unwarranted claims.

Mary Sue may sound sexist and hell maybe the media doesn't point out Gary Stu types enough but that doesn't mean that what im saying has no merit.

P.S

As far as the super heroine comment, ALL SUPERHEROINES HAVE BACKSTORIES THAT EXPLAIN WHY THEY DO WHAT THEY CAN DO. Rey does not. What we do know about her background leads me to believe even more so that she should not be able to do what she does so quickly. Shes a boring and very badly written character.

TFA should have layed the ground work for the next film. Instead it forces the next film to comeback and correct its short comings.

[LadySapphire]

Her character just seemed so forced and I honestly feel like i was being pandered too in a way that was almost insulting. If that makes sense.

Role-models for young girls should be about more than just beating everyone up and never failing. It should be about being brave, kind, and never giving up until you achieve your goals no matter what. Rey is given no reason to be brave and no obstacles in the way of her goal. Its why no one cheered when she did all the things she did. I fear now that no one will cheer in episode 9.

I think thats the last ill say its making me sad. I do thank everyone for participating in this discussion. It is very fun and i encourage you all to continue.

[Heroine Addict]

The book or other spin off which claimed time passes differently on Dagobah may be in canon, but that information was not passed on to 99.9% of the people who watched the movies. If people need to do "required reading" to know key details, then the film scriptwriters aren't doing their job. Of course, as with so many of George Lucas's discrepencies, the most likely explanation is that the stuff about time passing differently on Dagobah was added later AS A RETCON because the prequels' depiction of Jedi training is literally decades longer than the training Luke received.

Your key problem with Rey appears to be that we didn't get an explanation for her skills. I believe this is because it's a mystery to be solved in a later film. If we get to the point where there's no explanation in VIII or IX and people have to look up Rey's origin in a book or comic, then that will be shoddy scriptwriting.

[LadySapphire]

The book or other spin off which claimed time passes differently on Degobah may be in canon, but that information was not passed on to 99.9% of the people who watched the movies. If people need to do "required reading" to know key details, then the film scriptwriters aren't doing their job. Of course, as with so many of George Lucas's discrepencies, the most likely explanation is that the stuff about time passing differently on Degobah was added later AS A RETCON because the prequels' depiction of Jedi training is literally decades longer than the training Luke received.

Your key problem with Rey appears to be that we didn't get an explanation for her skills. I believe this is because it's a mystery to be solved in a later film. If we get to the point where there's no explanation in VIII or IX and people have to look up Rey's origin in a book or comic, then that will be shoddy scriptwriting.

Yea TFA is FILLED with information not given on screen. No one knew the planets that got blown up was the home of the republic senate being one example. Its riddled with exactly that kind of shoddy writing. If you read the novels youll find many answers we should have been told on screen. So you and I agree on that point. However once it is explained in canon i will at least have my answer. So if Rey's explanation comes in the form of a comic then thats what ill be quoting while defending her to those who dont know why. It may not be the manor in which i want the info but at least ill have gotten it.

In this case I fear the writers left themselves no room for a feasible explanation.

So heres the question. What explanation could there possibly be if weve seen that in the force vision Rey has been on jakku since she was what appeared to be 8 or 9 years old and her not knowing that the force was real before talking to Han solo?

Think they have a good explanation or do you think the lazy , safe writing of Abrams has doomed this trilogy?

[Heroine Addict]

My (probably crap) explanation is that Rey is a mimic who picks up skills by some form of osmosis. She picked up some of Han and Chewie's abilities just by occupying their former positions in the Falcon. Then, when she met them, she became a real ace. She had visions of the Jedi and her own past/future just by touching Luke's old lightsaber. Then, when she met Kylo, she found herself able to do advanced Jedi moves.

There's something going on there. Maybe her parents were scared for her or scared of her? Maybe Luke is scared of her?

Or maybe she is just a Mary Sue, who has extraordinary skills for no apparent reason?


As for missing information appearing only in the books, that's only a problem if the films are made to seem inconsistent by the omissions. Such as the disparity between decades of training in the PT and days of training in the OT, which requires the Dagobah time thing to make sense.

[LadySapphire]

My (probably crap) explanation is that Rey is a mimic who picks up skills by some form of osmosis. She picked up some of Han and Chewie's abilities just by occupying their former positions in the Falcon. Then, when she met them, she became a real ace. She had visions of the Jedi and her own past/future just by touching Luke's old lightsaber. Then, when she met Kylo, she found herself able to do advanced Jedi moves.

There's something going on there. Maybe her parents were scared for her or scared of her? Maybe Luke is scared of her?

Or maybe she is just a Mary Sue, who has extraordinary skills for no apparent reason?

We must remember superpowers dont exist outside of the force. So its not likely at all. Especially if you take into account how little risk they took with everything else.

Although there is a chance that she could be different in the force than others but nothing she has done is new. Force visions have been apart of star wars for a long time.

Also things like her being able to understand Chewie despite no wookies being an Jakku leads me more to believe that its shoddy writing.

Now i agree that they might have been scared of her. Could be why she was exiled. Heres my idea for that direction:


Have a twist such as Ren coming to the light and Rey going to the Dark. Hell imagine the moment when they show us that all this time Ren has been speaking to Anakins Ghost and that they are embedded in the first order to destroy it from within. How cool would that be? Luke in exile to keep Snoke from sensing it. Also could be a plausible reason for letting Rey win as to prevent Snoke from getting his hands on her at the end of TFA. A flash back of the Han death scene where Han gives Kylo a nod of approval as he knows what must be done to maintain his cover. Cut to a scene where all of Luke's students are being slaughtered and we see that a young girl (rey) has killed them all. Luke not having the heart to put her down instead decides to exile her on Jakku. After defeating Kylo the final scene in episode 8 is Kylo leaving with Luke and Rey leaving with snoke after finding out Kylo was a mole.


Its alot more likely that Disney opts to go the tradition heroes journey route wher..Zzzzzz

[Mr. X]

Yea you are making great points. Just because you can just chalk everything up to force magic doesnt mean that is all of a sudden going to make it compelling. Think about it. Its no longer impressive to see a person use force abilities if everyone can just magically do it. It is unfair to all the past jedi. BOTH FEMALE AND MALE. I never thought id be called sexist against myself.. haha.

And yea thats a great point Mr.X , there is nothing special or compelling about Rey. Your right you could replace her with just about anyone. That pains me because ive been dying for a badass female jedi in the main films.

It also destroys the entire theme of mentor-ship and training that ALL the films had which was huge part of the plots. The force takes YEARS to use properly and even Anakin who was probably one of the strongest force weilders got his ass handed to him by Lord Doku and he was helped by Obiwan. Heck it took three Jedi including Yoda to fight Doku.

Rey hears about the force and like 4 hours later is beating Luke's best student. Yeah that's not story telling and it would suck just as much if Rey was a guy. Now one thing I could see is if Ren dropped his guard cause he was trying to "score" or something and she sucker punched him, that would make sense. Now granted Rey didn't blow up the whole death star like Luke did but he only did that with a lucky shot where as Rey was expertly flying the Falcon without ever being in it.

In fact we had to deal with this in sci fi in the 70s and 80s. These golden boy heroes who could magically do stuff. Made the stories horrible.

Luke's training consisted of a few hours with Obi Wan, followed by a few days with Yoda and then one final visit to watch Yoda die. That was all we were ever shown.

which is way more than Rey got. Comparing the same time lines that's like Luke nearly killing Darth on his first encounter on the death star instead of shooting a door lock. Also the time between the death star and Hoth is a year. The time between 2nd and thrid movie is a while. So its not 15 min here and 20 min there. And again Luke got beaten bad by vadar first time fighting.

Also Anakin trained his whole life since he was 10 or 8 and he couldn't beat Doku.

Its bad writing.

And we know its bad writing cause when little kid Anakin blows up the invader mother ship and expertly flies a fighter ship its pretty apparent that all was hokey fan service for little kids.

[LadySapphire]

Yea you are making great points. Just because you can just chalk everything up to force magic doesnt mean that is all of a sudden going to make it compelling. Think about it. Its no longer impressive to see a person use force abilities if everyone can just magically do it. It is unfair to all the past jedi. BOTH FEMALE AND MALE. I never thought id be called sexist against myself.. haha.

And yea thats a great point Mr.X , there is nothing special or compelling about Rey. Your right you could replace her with just about anyone. That pains me because ive been dying for a badass female jedi in the main films.

It also destroys the entire theme of mentor-ship and training that ALL the films had which was huge part of the plots. The force takes YEARS to use properly and even Anakin who was probably one of the strongest force weilders got his ass handed to him by Lord Doku and he was helped by Obiwan. Heck it took three Jedi including Yoda to fight Doku.

Rey hears about the force and like 4 hours later is beating Luke's best student. Yeah that's not story telling and it would suck just as much if Rey was a guy. Now one thing I could see is if Ren dropped his guard cause he was trying to "score" or something and she sucker punched him, that would make sense. Now granted Rey didn't blow up the whole death star like Luke did but he only did that with a lucky shot where as Rey was expertly flying the Falcon without ever being in it.

In fact we had to deal with this in sci fi in the 70s and 80s. These golden boy heroes who could magically do stuff. Made the stories horrible.

Luke's training consisted of a few hours with Obi Wan, followed by a few days with Yoda and then one final visit to watch Yoda die. That was all we were ever shown.

which is way more than Rey got. Comparing the same time lines that's like Luke nearly killing Darth on his first encounter on the death star instead of shooting a door lock. Also the time between the death star and Hoth is a year. The time between 2nd and thrid movie is a while. So its not 15 min here and 20 min there. And again Luke got beaten bad by vadar first time fighting.

Also Anakin trained his whole life since he was 10 or 8 and he couldn't beat Doku.

Its bad writing.

And we know its bad writing cause when little kid Anakin blows up the invader mother ship and expertly flies a fighter ship its pretty apparent that all was hokey fan service for little kids.

You are correct sir!

[KnightsofGotham.com]

His exile alone has come to not sit right with me. Why would the same character who ignored Obi-wan and Yoda's protest to stay and complete training in order to leave and save his friends run into exile when such a threat as the first order existed? The man who never gave up on his father who he MET in episode 5 now seemingly has given up all hope and effort to redeem his nephew?

This point was brought up but kinda not covered.
Oddly enough i understood why Luke was in exile.
it made perfect sensse to me, but then again I have read 90% of all the novels several times over and many of the other now non-cannon material.

But as someone else already said if you have to do background reading on the topic then the writers didnt do thier job correctly but its worth saying that if you wanted to delve into that story you would either need 45 minutes of exposition or treat it as a weekly tv show covering all the things that ended up happening to Luke mentally.

when you have great power but manage to fail misreably doing the most mundane thing (being a jedi master/instructor) you start feeling that maybe the weight of that kinda responcibility should rest on your shoulders. he was a teacher and lost one of his pupils to the darks8ide in a really bad way
(digging up Vaders helmet and blowing up a s5tar, etc)
If I was the instructor that allowed that to happen i wouldnt want to be a teacher either

Sure he eventually gets lured out of exile because Leas twins need help and guidence but eventually its the search for the witches that get him out of exile.

So where are we with this?

Imagine you are Luke.
You started your training late by over a decade (maybe even a decade and a half)
you are thrown face first into an issue thats far larger than you are and suddenly the fate of the galaxy rests on your shoulders. then you're the last jedi you have sacrificed so much including chunks of your actual body and now that its all over you set out to start teaching future jedi.
you werent trained well in the first place and the reason why you're alive is vbecause there are dozens of people getting your back and pulling your sack out of the fire.
you dont have the in depth knowledge of the force thats required
and now you are forced to teach.
and then one student goes rouge, kills all your students, and digs up vaders helmet.
he then goes on a killing spree going so far as to destroy a star in order to wreck a star destroyer.

you feel that maybe if you knew more about training you could have done a better job and suddenly you realize that you have to carry that weight.
so what do you do?
you go hide because the loss of that many people because you screwed up is a heavy heavy weight.
Generals who send solders to die usually feel a level of guilt. they sometimes also feel the weight of the enemy soildgers killed because he sent men out to kill them. now imagine that guilt magnified by hundreds of thousands.
I think you might go hide too.
There is a really deep thread that explains this far better but it would literally take me hours to type it all.
So yeah.
the books go far deeper into lukes issues
even if they arent canon.... there are too many similarities to say that they didnt take the books as inspiration

[tallyho]

^^^Boy, I hate it when those students go 'rouge' lol!



* See my earlier posts - I warned everyone I was an asshole

[sugarcoater]

Honestly, I think many Star Wars fans have made the franchise to be something it's not. It was a fun sci-fi lark as a kid. Memories of how good the series actually we're exaggerated over time. There is very little in terms of clever writing or quality thought put into the series so far. Yet for some reason, fans (including myself) treat the series as though it's some sort of hallowed story deserving of the benefit of the doubt for poor storytelling.
Simply put, from my perspective the storyline is a nice bit of Hollywood puff and little more. I enjoy aspects of the series and I hope more can be done with it in the future. But so far, it's hardly some transcendent story. The well observed points of criticism posted above illustrate just how poor the movies can be at times.

[Dogfish]

yes but if the explanation becomes "the force can do anything" then the story just devolves into relativism and nihilism. Anyone can do anything for no real reason is not a good story.

It's never implied anywhere that "anyone" can just use the Force but I agree the storytelling could be better. I think it's just weird that now when someone who is clearly Force Sensitive uses the Force it's unrealistic but when Luke did it or baby Anakin, it was just accepted. Again, not saying it's great storytelling, and yes it cheapens the Force and perhaps defeats the purpose of mentoring, I'm just saying why I never have and am still not convinced Rey is a Mary Sue. Now, if Rey was Jynn, a non Force user, then yes I wouldn't agree 100%.

Rey being a mary sue is not limited to the force instances. I recommend you give the vid I linked a shot. It breaks it down pretty well. Luke and baby anakin did not know how to do ANY thing with the force until someone taught them. There connection with the force made them good at things but it didnt make them unbeatable and it didnt just make them able to do advanced force techniques.

Its not that she felt the force or used the force. Its how she used it and how inconsistent it is with the established logic of the star wars universe. She shouldn't even know what half the things she did are. If everyone who was force sensitive could do mind tricks, force pull, force mind reading naturally than it makes the Jedi - padawan and sith - apprentice structures (which are the backbone of star wars) completely and utterly obsolete. What exactly will we get to see her learn now? What exactly will she overcome? If episode 8 has her suddenly just lose it still doesn't undo the cheapening of what it means to be a Jedi. Jedi were supposed to learn and train for years. Im not saying she cant be a fast learner and natural with the force, but do it in a way that makes some sense you know? Also it wont make sense now if suddenly she becomes vulnerable and knocked down by obstacles in episode 8. It will just create more plot holes. I dont know.

The idea that Anakin and Luke don't use the force is not even slightly true.

Anakin is a child and also the only human who is able to compete in Pod Racing, also he's great at Pod Racing. Luke meanwhile spends his days on the farm shooting rats with a spaceship. That's Jedi reflexes right there. Not trained by a master, but practiced over and over.

It's not established in the movies how force power levels are attained. Anakin is the most powerful force user, but he's very late to the training, Luke even later yet even more powerful. It's perfectly feasible that Rey, following this pattern, is a similar order of magnitude more powerful than Luke.

Can't really say for sure though, and I doubt it matters. We're getting Star Wars films forever now, we'll be swimming in them. Don't expect anything to make sense for too long.

[LadySapphire]

yes but if the explanation becomes "the force can do anything" then the story just devolves into relativism and nihilism. Anyone can do anything for no real reason is not a good story.

It's never implied anywhere that "anyone" can just use the Force but I agree the storytelling could be better. I think it's just weird that now when someone who is clearly Force Sensitive uses the Force it's unrealistic but when Luke did it or baby Anakin, it was just accepted. Again, not saying it's great storytelling, and yes it cheapens the Force and perhaps defeats the purpose of mentoring, I'm just saying why I never have and am still not convinced Rey is a Mary Sue. Now, if Rey was Jynn, a non Force user, then yes I wouldn't agree 100%.

Rey being a mary sue is not limited to the force instances. I recommend you give the vid I linked a shot. It breaks it down pretty well. Luke and baby anakin did not know how to do ANY thing with the force until someone taught them. There connection with the force made them good at things but it didnt make them unbeatable and it didnt just make them able to do advanced force techniques.

Its not that she felt the force or used the force. Its how she used it and how inconsistent it is with the established logic of the star wars universe. She shouldn't even know what half the things she did are. If everyone who was force sensitive could do mind tricks, force pull, force mind reading naturally than it makes the Jedi - padawan and sith - apprentice structures (which are the backbone of star wars) completely and utterly obsolete. What exactly will we get to see her learn now? What exactly will she overcome? If episode 8 has her suddenly just lose it still doesn't undo the cheapening of what it means to be a Jedi. Jedi were supposed to learn and train for years. Im not saying she cant be a fast learner and natural with the force, but do it in a way that makes some sense you know? Also it wont make sense now if suddenly she becomes vulnerable and knocked down by obstacles in episode 8. It will just create more plot holes. I dont know.

The idea that Anakin and Luke don't use the force is not even slightly true.

Anakin is a child and also the only human who is able to compete in Pod Racing, also he's great at Pod Racing. Luke meanwhile spends his days on the farm shooting rats with a spaceship. That's Jedi reflexes right there. Not trained by a master, but practiced over and over.

It's not established in the movies how force power levels are attained. Anakin is the most powerful force user, but he's very late to the training, Luke even later yet even more powerful. It's perfectly feasible that Rey, following this pattern, is a similar order of magnitude more powerful than Luke.

Can't really say for sure though, and I doubt it matters. We're getting Star Wars films forever now, we'll be swimming in them. Don't expect anything to make sense for too long.

Luke is not as powerful as Anakin in return of the jedi. I stated that their connection with the force makes them good at things but neither performed the advanced force abilities that Rey did without being taught first. Power level has nothing to do with it. This is a matter of knowing how to do things that she didnt even know about or even taught how. Even if she teaches herself, it makes more sense than learning a jedi mind trick in 56 seconds and force pulling a saber away from a trained force user with no explanation.

[Dazzle1]

In addition to Rey being a Mary Sue which has been done ad nauseum

The story is not that original: A doomsday weapon needs to be destroyed, the mentor is killed or sacrfices himself, a nobody on a dessert planet

Politics also became part of the movies after the first aired trilogy.

Abrams has ruined 2 of the 3 iconic Sci-fi franchises.

[Mr. X]

Hey I'm all for a good female character. LOVED Ripley in Aliens 2. Gee why can't we have a strong, smart woman that isn't an emotional wreck for once. Hey I'm all for some super chic beating people up... fine. But don't defend a poor story. What's the point about arguing "real and gritty" then throwing all that out. Its a poor story. Rey should have to work to get where she is, not have it handed to her. The other two trilogies are about that. That's the same golden boy nonsense we had back in the 70s and 80s where the white male was just gifted and on all the time. Boring. Bad story telling is bad story telling. In fact this reeks of when some grade school lets the retarded kid win a running race then applauds them like they actually won. How is that not condescending. "Here's your super chic... now shut up."

Also anger is supposed to pull you over to the dark side. So Rey beat Ren by getting angry. Unlike Luke who had to control his anger and learn that lesson Rey gets angry and whoops butt and wins. So even that aspect of the mythos is thrown out.

Fine have a super chic. Fine have her kick butt. But its sad to do it with a poor story and crapping all over the original material.

[xxxwarriorxxx]

Couldn't agree more Mr. X! Not a fan of Rey at all. Thought the story was unoriginal and just total nonsense. I enjoyed Rogue One so much better.

[sugarcoater]

In reading over some of the comments about Rey, I wonder if she isn't given such an easy role and made to be such a badass simply because Hollywood is deathly afraid of being accused of sexism/misogyny or racism. If Rey is beaten up, especially by a male, obnoxious critics could claim some aspect of sexism or misogyny. So to avoid anything along those lines, we get characters like Rey and Wonder Woman who won't face any serious peril while male counterparts face serious peril. I'll be curious to see if there is anything to this theory, but I do feel there might be something to this.

[Dogfish]

In addition to Rey being a Mary Sue which has been done ad nauseum

The story is not that original: A doomsday weapon needs to be destroyed, the mentor is killed or sacrfices himself, a nobody on a dessert planet

Politics also became part of the movies after the first aired trilogy.

Abrams has ruined 2 of the 3 iconic Sci-fi franchises.

Yeah nothing political about the first Star Wars movies at all. The Empire and their stormtroopers don't even slightly represent space Nazis or anything. Also there's nothing remotely political about making a movie in the middle of the Cold War which prominently features a weapon designed to blow up an entire planet. And there's nothing political about a diverse team of disparate adventurers from different cultures and social classes overcoming their personal differences to fight for a common cause.

Nope. Nothing political in the original Star Wars at all.

Star Wars has always been political. The thing is when you were a kid watching the first ones thinking how awesome X-Wings are you tend not to notice.

[Dogfish]

Luke is not as powerful as Anakin in return of the jedi. I stated that their connection with the force makes them good at things but neither performed the advanced force abilities that Rey did without being taught first. Power level has nothing to do with it. This is a matter of knowing how to do things that she didnt even know about or even taught how. Even if she teaches herself, it makes more sense than learning a jedi mind trick in 56 seconds and force pulling a saber away from a trained force user with no explanation.

Yes he is, that's why Vader wants him alive. It's the inherent power from the family connect that makes Vader and the Emperor realise that Leia is so valuable even though she hasn't spent five minutes in Jedi school.

What I think kind of sucks about these conversations when they pop up is that some people just watched Force Awakens and all they want to say about it is, "THEY BROKE STAR WARS". I mean here's a thought, maybe it's a trilogy, and everybody knows it's a trilogy, and maybe what we have here with Rey and her powers and capabilities is what's called a mystery. As in maybe there is an explanation but it's going to come later.

I mean if you look at the original series, it's not like near the end of the trench battle Darth Vader pops his head out of the TIE Fighter and shouts, "OI! I'M YOUR DAD!" No, they leave that for us to learn in the second movie. And I expect that's going to happen here.

It's weird that so many people are just presuming on the strength of one movie that they know everything is fucked. It's not fucked. It's just that Force Awakens wasn't that great*. There are a lot of questions to answer and chief among them is how come Rey is a badass.




*I kind of think Rogue One, which was excellent, has kind of made Force Awakens worse retrospectively. Rogue One dovetails into New Hope so neatly and it adds so much weight and significance to that flaw in the Death Star, the battle to get the plans and that final assault. So in Force Awakens when Han says, "There's always a way to blow these things up" it jars really badly with what Rogue One told us about the Death Star. Also the whole planet is a weapon thing is just bollocks. I mean the Death Star made sense, flies to a planet, blows up a planet. The planet thingy that just launches planet killing beams that are capable of near instant undetectable interstellar journeys? That's tragically bad.

[Visitor]

What was worse was having a planet killing weapon on a remote planet, but the target has to the minute countdown of when it'a going to have powered up to fire. Just consider the time to travel to it through hyperspace and you have the information traveling instantaneously. I know you want to build up tension, but parts of it made no sense.

It was so badly written that you have suspension of belief that you could drive the Enterprise through with room to spare. Overall you have a great concept, but when you get down to individual items there are too many flaws.

[sugarcoater]

I don't think there's much original political material in Star Wars. Would Rocky IV be political? It's common for Hollywood to take whatever issues the US is facing and using that as fodder for film. Having a corrupt powerful group manipulating a weak populace is hardly anything new. The first trilogy could just as easily be a criticism of absentee fathers.

As for not judging a trilogy solely by the first installment, there's not much else that can be done. On what else can we base opinions? And wasn't the first installment of the last trilogy clearly a sign of how bad that trilogy would be? And honestly, how much ridiculous overlap was there from the original trilogy (mostly "A New Hope", with a nod to the scene in "Empire" when Vader cuts off Luke's hand and Luke drops off the ledge)? There's even the sequence of having the young jedi head off to find their mentor.
In short, disappointing start and lack of clever plot so far. As a fan, I'm hoping for a better result than the flaming mess that was the most recent trilogy.

[Heroine Addict]

In addition to Rey being a Mary Sue which has been done ad nauseum

The story is not that original: A doomsday weapon needs to be destroyed, the mentor is killed or sacrfices himself, a nobody on a dessert planet

Politics also became part of the movies after the first aired trilogy.

Abrams has ruined 2 of the 3 iconic Sci-fi franchises.

Subjectively, you may believe Abrams ruined Star Wars and Star Trek. Objectively, his work on both franchises has outperformed the previous batch of installments, both commercially and critically. No question.

Star Trek was in a Hell of a state before Abrams. The TV show Enterprise had limped to the episode count needed for syndication and the last couple of TNG movies performed abysmally. The franchise was moribund.

Having said that, the general implausible awesomeness and mega-fast promotion of Nu-Kirk were annoying. Yet there were surprisingly few calls of Mary Sue or Gary Stu. While the Mary Sue characteristics may be unisex, the complaints of Mary Sueness are overwhelmingly directed at female characters.

[Dazzle1]

In addition to Rey being a Mary Sue which has been done ad nauseum

The story is not that original: A doomsday weapon needs to be destroyed, the mentor is killed or sacrfices himself, a nobody on a dessert planet

Politics also became part of the movies after the first aired trilogy.

Abrams has ruined 2 of the 3 iconic Sci-fi franchises.

Subjectively, you may believe Abrams ruined Star Wars and Star Trek. Objectively, his work on both franchises has outperformed the previous batch of installments, both commercially and critically. No question.

Star Trek was in a Hell of a state before Abrams. The TV show Enterprise had limped to the episode count needed for syndication and the last couple of TNG movies performed abysmally. The franchise was moribund.

Having said that, the general implausible awesomeness and mega-fast promotion of Nu-Kirk were annoying. Yet there were surprisingly few calls of Mary Sue or Gary Stu. While the Mary Sue characteristics may be unisex, the complaints of Mary Sueness are overwhelmingly directed at female characters.

Abrams is a joke. He has no talent and his take on both suck

Star Trek the series I am talking the first three was a thinking person's science fiction series

Voyager was the worst of the 5 because they started after the third season featuring another Mary Sue: Seven of Nine

Enterprise could have worked if they has stuck to the original concept

But these movies without the ST name could have been Battle Beyond the Stars

As far as Star Wars forget the sex, and race of the lead actors, it was poorly done.

[Dogfish]

I think it's worth bearing in mind that with a small number of exceptions Star Trek movies are absolute trash, and all the TNG movies are just horrible. The remakes are nearly as bad as those TNG films, but it's important not to rose-tint just how crap those movies were. The lesson here is that the Star Trek movies apart from Wrath of Khan belong in the bin. Abrams, hell anybody, could have done better with Star Trek, but it is what it is.

It's really unfair to call Seven of Nine a Mary Sue by the way. Star Trek Next Gen series have always had a superman character who can do everything in every situation. In TNG it was Data. In DS9 it was Bashir after it turned out he was suddenly literally a superman. The characters aren't bad because they are Mary Sues, they are bad because typically the first half of any given episode has to be dedicated to explaining why they don't fix everything.

What Seven of Nine was, which is actually worse than being a Mary Sue, was cheesecake. There was a shortage of nerdbait in Voyager so the writers added a sexy cyborg to keep the fanfic boards ticking over.

Goddamn it now I've been reminded what a piece of shit Voyager was and I feel bad. -_-