Red Sonja

[Mr. X]

Great We now know how this is going to turn out.

Notice how its a character males create that they bastardize but they never make an empowering movie about a historical female like Joan of Arc or that woman who was a pirate. Or just make some empowered female. Why does it have to be the revamping of some other thing.

[Dazzle1]

Great We now know how this is going to turn out.

Notice how its a character males create that they bastardize but they never make an empowering movie about a historical female like Joan of Arc or that woman who was a pirate. Or just make some empowered female. Why does it have to be the revamping of some other thing.

That is why Wonder Woman will always be the greatest Superheroine, she is an original

Regarding Joan or Arc, that would be hard because she died so young.

Although not an action film -Elizabeth was a female empowerment film
Boudica would be a good one

[ivandobsky]

Is this another tax write off?

[shevek]

Boudica would be a good one

There have already been several Boudicca films and comics.
The latest one, done by Saban, came out last year. It was OK. I did a thread about it:
viewtopic.php?p=210724&hilit=boudica#p210724

There was also Tomiris, filmed in Kazakhstan about the real-life Amazon, which came out in 2019. It was also OK.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomiris_(film)

There are a bunch of other empowering woman-warrior movies, too.
There was a entire genre of 'female barbarian' B-movie flicks in the 80s, of which the Red Sonja film was only the tip of the iceberg.
And in the 90s, there was of course the Xena phenomenon.
There was Mulan live-action in 2020 which was a complete bomb.

I wonder if Matilda Lutz would say all of those productions were about the male gaze. Probably she would.
Cue up all the Youtubers raring to destroy Matilda over the next couple weeks, as the Madame Web furor has died down.
This has become all too predictable, that the way to promote a movie is by dissing the fans of the original IP.

[P.S. I've always wanted to see a film or comic about the Berber warrior queen Kahina/Dihya, who resisted the Muslim hordes for quite a while and established her own kingdom. I first learned about her from an episode of Relic Hunter called 'Kahina's Saddle'!]

---------------------------------------------------------

Also, Jesus fucking shit:
"“I have no interest in fictional women who use [rape] as an engine of motivation,” the director told The Hollywood Reporter‘s Scott Johnson in January 2023. “It’s not a strong motivation. She’s just a human being in the world of femininity.”

This has got to be one of the most idiotic things I've ever heard anyone from the film industry say, even for a movie director who is trans.
Want to know why?
Because in 2017's 'Revenge', Matilda Lutz played A WOMAN WHOSE ENTIRE MOTIVATION WAS THAT SHE WAS RAPED AND LEFT FOR DEAD.
That's why the movie is called 'Revenge'! (I watched it when Matilda's role as Red Sonja was announced, to check out her acting skills).
And not only that, in 2021's 'Zone 414', Matilda's android character SHOOTS A MAN WHO TRIES TO IMMOBILIZE HER TO RAPE HER.
You can't make this level of stupidity up. Matilda's entire career is based on rape revenge roles.
Does MJ Bassett even realize what is coming out of her mouth?

[Mr. X]

What I find funny is actresses like this and Scarlet Johanson etc complain about the male gaze yet routinely star in horror movies in which they wearing under wear etc and stalked by some killer. Johanson did topless scenes in chic flics.

Do these actresses/studios really think this brings people in to demonize men of certain fan bases?

[argento]

Cosplayer Irina Meier has an orientation that appeals to a male audience.

[sneakly]

Great We now know how this is going to turn out.

Notice how its a character males create that they bastardize but they never make an empowering movie about a historical female like Joan of Arc or that woman who was a pirate. Or just make some empowered female. Why does it have to be the revamping of some other thing.

I am utterly SHOCKED! A movie based on a female character in a leather and metal bikini and created by male writers in the 1970s would be consider exploitative! shocked!

In the TV show Hunter in the 1980s had a revolt by the female lead ( the delicious Stephanie Kramer). She objected to her character being tied up and raped for a third time in the series run. That was the way it was back then. If they want to update the character to make her fit modern norms, I get it. But the origins of the character was tits and ass version of Conan. Rape shouldn't be the key motivator in all female action flicks. In the 1970s and 80s it was an overused trope. I can think of a dozen movies where raped girl gets revenge while half naked. They are welcome to change it.

BUT, they still have to create a compelling story and if they decide she can't wear a metal bikini, they may not want to switch her into a Burka either. They wanted to get rid of Wonder Woman's costume in the 1970s and Gloria Steinem (of all people) objected. Change and update the story at your own peril...

[Dazzle1]

Boudica would be a good one

There have already been several Boudicca films and comics.
The latest one, done by Saban, came out last year. It was OK. I did a thread about it:
viewtopic.php?p=210724&hilit=boudica#p210724

There was also Tomiris, filmed in Kazakhstan about the real-life Amazon, which came out in 2019. It was also OK.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomiris_(film)

There are a bunch of other empowering woman-warrior movies, too.
There was a entire genre of 'female barbarian' B-movie flicks in the 80s, of which the Red Sonja film was only the tip of the iceberg.
And in the 90s, there was of course the Xena phenomenon.
There was Mulan live-action in 2020 which was a complete bomb.

I wonder if Matilda Lutz would say all of those productions were about the male gaze. Probably she would.
Cue up all the Youtubers raring to destroy Matilda over the next couple weeks, as the Madame Web furor has died down.
This has become all too predictable, that the way to promote a movie is by dissing the fans of the original IP.

[P.S. I've always wanted to see a film or comic about the Berber warrior queen Kahina/Dihya, who resisted the Muslim hordes for quite a while and established her own kingdom. I first learned about her from an episode of Relic Hunter called 'Kahina's Saddle'!]

---------------------------------------------------------

Also, Jesus fucking shit:
"“I have no interest in fictional women who use [rape] as an engine of motivation,” the director told The Hollywood Reporter‘s Scott Johnson in January 2023. “It’s not a strong motivation. She’s just a human being in the world of femininity.”

This has got to be one of the most idiotic things I've ever heard anyone from the film industry say, even for a movie director who is trans.
Want to know why?
Because in 2017's 'Revenge', Matilda Lutz played A WOMAN WHOSE ENTIRE MOTIVATION WAS THAT SHE WAS RAPED AND LEFT FOR DEAD.
That's why the movie is called 'Revenge'! (I watched it when Matilda's role as Red Sonja was announced, to check out her acting skills).
And not only that, in 2021's 'Zone 414', Matilda's android character SHOOTS A MAN WHO TRIES TO IMMOBILIZE HER TO RAPE HER.
You can't make this level of stupidity up. Matilda's entire career is based on rape revenge roles.
Does MJ Bassett even realize what is coming out of her mouth?

-----------
I was responding to a historical figure vs a fictional figure

[DonShip]

Sounds like this upcoming version of her will be covered head to toe, and not the least bit sexy. So a woman mimicking a man. Yeah. No. Looks like they won't be getting my money.

Okay, just did a search. I could be wrong.

[Dogfish]

I wasn't expecting much but I'll give it a go. Can't be worse than the 2011 Conan movie.

[shevek]

I wasn't expecting much but I'll give it a go. Can't be worse than the 2011 Conan movie.

Oh, it could very easily be worse. Terrible as it was, 2011 Conan was pre-woke, and the movie featured Jason Momoa, Rose McGowan, Ron Perlman, and Rachel Nichols (the live-action Scarlett!) so at least there were nice things to look at and some kind of acting to enjoy.

This Red Sonja film is made by the exact same company, Avi Lerner's Millennium (a longtime offshoot of Cannon) that did the 2011 Conan.
If the same company makes two highly similar movies, one of them is going to be worse than the other, at least slightly.

So it could most definitely tip into the 'even worse' category, where you end up with the same dilemma as Marvels/Madame Web, scratching your head and going 'Which is worse? Hard to say?'

But I wouldn't entirely give up on it yet just because of Matilda Lutz's posturing. It's still Red Sonja. So we'll wait and see.

[Mr. X]

Oh yeah, forgot about that Jason Mamoa Conan. I thought Dogfish was referring to that Arnie one with Grace what's her name.

[sneakly]

I completely missed that one. Boy did they ruin Rose McGawan, She was such a hotty in her Charmed days.

[shevek]

I completely missed that one. Boy did they ruin Rose McGawan, She was such a hotty in her Charmed days.

She ruined herself. Dated Marilyn Manson, shaved her head, went MeToo, got arrested for coke, moved to Mexico so she could continue doing drugs, etc. She could have remained a huge star for a lot longer than she did, but presented herself as too unstable.

In some ways, she is a bit (reality)based and stands out from the pack because she is staunchly feminist and criticizes gays for not being pro-woman enough (the current trans movement is very anti-female) but she has many of the crazy-eyed elements that Alyssa Milano does, so it's kind of just evens.

I kind of like her chutzpah, though, for going up against the Sultan of Brunei. At least she was able to acknowledge and criticize the medieval-era nature of some of that "Sheik of Araby" stuff that today's intersectionalists are too scared to criticize (see Israel/Hamas conflict).

[Femina]

I mean we've already seen the costume on the poster so, I expect she just means no ludicrously obvious T&A shots are being filmed on purpose.

Frankly it's basically about aligned with the Red Sonya comics these days. For the most part they maintain her classic look, and just rather than OVERLY focusing on the T&A they just have her doing badass barbarian stuff and let the sex appeal come naturally. There's pros and cons to this obviously but, I expect it's even more important in a film. To many obvious booty shots and it draws the viewer out of the experience no matter HOW invested they are in a booty shot or two.

By example, not many people thought the Flash falling into Wonder Woman's boobs was excellent film making, that and we're already seeing 'sex scene' fatigue in the premium television shows with most viewers asking for shows that can just get the fuck on with the plot already and stop wasting our time with ten minute sex scenes.

[Dazzle1]

I mean we've already seen the costume on the poster so, I expect she just means no ludicrously obvious T&A shots are being filmed on purpose.

Frankly it's basically about aligned with the Red Sonya comics these days. For the most part they maintain her classic look, and just rather than OVERLY focusing on the T&A they just have her doing badass barbarian stuff and let the sex appeal come naturally. There's pros and cons to this obviously but, I expect it's even more important in a film. To many obvious booty shots and it draws the viewer out of the experience no matter HOW invested they are in a booty shot or two.

By example, not many people thought the Flash falling into Wonder Woman's boobs was excellent film making, that and we're already seeing 'sex scene' fatigue in the premium television shows with most viewers asking for shows that can just get the fuck on with the plot already and stop wasting our time with ten minute sex scenes.

When you say the Classic look, I image Red Sonja with almost nothing on

https://www.dynamite.com/images/TNClassicRS01CovA.jpg

[Dazzle1]

I completely missed that one. Boy did they ruin Rose McGawan, She was such a hotty in her Charmed days.

She ruined herself. Dated Marilyn Manson, shaved her head, went MeToo, got arrested for coke, moved to Mexico so she could continue doing drugs, etc. She could have remained a huge star for a lot longer than she did, but presented herself as too unstable.

In some ways, she is a bit (reality)based and stands out from the pack because she is staunchly feminist and criticizes gays for not being pro-woman enough (the current trans movement is very anti-female) but she has many of the crazy-eyed elements that Alyssa Milano does, so it's kind of just evens.

I kind of like her chutzpah, though, for going up against the Sultan of Brunei. At least she was able to acknowledge and criticize the medieval-era nature of some of that "Sheik of Araby" stuff that today's intersectionalists are too scared to criticize (see Israel/Hamas conflict).

Coombs and Milano have become so unlikeable.

[Femina]

I mean we've already seen the costume on the poster so, I expect she just means no ludicrously obvious T&A shots are being filmed on purpose.

Frankly it's basically about aligned with the Red Sonya comics these days. For the most part they maintain her classic look, and just rather than OVERLY focusing on the T&A they just have her doing badass barbarian stuff and let the sex appeal come naturally. There's pros and cons to this obviously but, I expect it's even more important in a film. To many obvious booty shots and it draws the viewer out of the experience no matter HOW invested they are in a booty shot or two.

By example, not many people thought the Flash falling into Wonder Woman's boobs was excellent film making, that and we're already seeing 'sex scene' fatigue in the premium television shows with most viewers asking for shows that can just get the fuck on with the plot already and stop wasting our time with ten minute sex scenes.

When you say the Classic look, I image Red Sonja with almost nothing on

https://www.dynamite.com/images/TNClassicRS01CovA.jpg

Yeah that's still basically what she wears in the comics these days, some have her covering up a bit more when she's specifically like... up in the snowcapped mountains and stuff, but otherwise it's still relatively the same classic Red Sonya with the occasional doodads cycling on and off.

The difference is in the FRAMING of her as dangerous, powerful, and not to be taken lightly... without dumbing down her sex appeal. So when you see the T&A it's on Sonya's terms more or less, vs the old days when she'd be just walking around casually while the camera was up in her boobs and bottom where it's obviously just there to BE there.

Again I see pros and cons for this, but in a MOVIE, comic book framing is especially obviously notable for most people, as if you want a cake shot, you have to VERY DELIBERATELY film a cake shot and HOLD the shot long enough that it's obvious this cake shot is what's important to you as you're filming atm, and its more distracting to the viewer than a single panel of cake in-between the action of a comic book is. So all i really mean to say in regard to the recent hooplah above is that, I figure this is what she means by 'toning down the male gaze' a bit. It's not that they're removing her classic look or forgetting that a massive element of Red Sonja is her fairly iconic 'barbarian' sex appeal....... it's just being shot to frame her as powerful and dangerous FIRST, and a sex object at her own leisure. Obviously, we won't know FOR SURE, what they're doing till we start to see some actual footage from this thing... IF there's ever footage.

[Dogfish]

Oh yeah, forgot about that Jason Mamoa Conan. I thought Dogfish was referring to that Arnie one with Grace what's her name.

No the Momoa Conan was way worse than Conan The Destroyer.

[Dogfish]

I wasn't expecting much but I'll give it a go. Can't be worse than the 2011 Conan movie.

Oh, it could very easily be worse. Terrible as it was, 2011 Conan was pre-woke, and the movie featured Jason Momoa, Rose McGowan, Ron Perlman, and Rachel Nichols (the live-action Scarlett!) so at least there were nice things to look at and some kind of acting to enjoy.

This Red Sonja film is made by the exact same company, Avi Lerner's Millennium (a longtime offshoot of Cannon) that did the 2011 Conan.
If the same company makes two highly similar movies, one of them is going to be worse than the other, at least slightly.

So it could most definitely tip into the 'even worse' category, where you end up with the same dilemma as Marvels/Madame Web, scratching your head and going 'Which is worse? Hard to say?'

But I wouldn't entirely give up on it yet just because of Matilda Lutz's posturing. It's still Red Sonja. So we'll wait and see.

There is no such thing as 'pre-woke'. Before woke it was 'PC' before 'PC' it was 'women's lib' or some such, and back it goes forever. Red Sonja was inherently that, because a woman kills the shit out of men with a sword.

[shevek]

I wasn't expecting much but I'll give it a go. Can't be worse than the 2011 Conan movie.

Oh, it could very easily be worse. Terrible as it was, 2011 Conan was pre-woke, and the movie featured Jason Momoa, Rose McGowan, Ron Perlman, and Rachel Nichols (the live-action Scarlett!) so at least there were nice things to look at and some kind of acting to enjoy.

This Red Sonja film is made by the exact same company, Avi Lerner's Millennium (a longtime offshoot of Cannon) that did the 2011 Conan.
If the same company makes two highly similar movies, one of them is going to be worse than the other, at least slightly.

So it could most definitely tip into the 'even worse' category, where you end up with the same dilemma as Marvels/Madame Web, scratching your head and going 'Which is worse? Hard to say?'

But I wouldn't entirely give up on it yet just because of Matilda Lutz's posturing. It's still Red Sonja. So we'll wait and see.

There is no such thing as 'pre-woke'. Before woke it was 'PC' before 'PC' it was 'women's lib' or some such, and back it goes forever. Red Sonja was inherently that, because a woman kills the shit out of men with a sword.

,

I think you don't realize what you just typed yourself. Look at it again. 'Before' means the same thing as 'pre' the last I checked.

But, you know what? I was going to write a whole essay about this, but instead I'm turning over a new leaf.
I have to just resign myself to the fact that you don' t know history and you don't understand terminology, and leave it at that.

And now, back to Red Sonja.

[PartsUnknown]

I’d love it if one of our esteemed SHIP producers took a stab at a peril version of Red Sonja. There are some fantastic cosplayers who could provide inspiration.

As far as the upcoming film goes, my expectations are below sea level. On a practical side, the fact that it’s been pushed back so many times and they still haven’t released a teaser trailer for it tells me they don’t feel great what they’ve made. And Matilda Lutz’s statement about the male gaze doesn’t make me hopeful about it.

It can be both — sexiness is a critical part of Red Sonja and she can still be empowering. Lutz’s breakout role was in “Revenge,” a fun action/horror/exploitation film where her character was gang raped, left for dead but ended up coming back to life to exact bloody revenge — while mostly wearing a bikini with various weapons strung to her. It fucks, and that’s what Red Sonja does, she fucks.

The chainmail bikini is a major part of what makes Sonja a memorable character, and it doesn’t need to be explained away. The sword & sorcery genre is inspired by Boris Vallejo’s artwork that celebrated the human body. These are savage times where men and women wore little and life was brutal, short, dangerous but also sexy.

Sword and sorcery is a niche genre and RS is a niche character. They want to appeal to as wide an audience as possible but I think that’s a recipe for disaster here. Red Sonja isn’t a household name, she’s only a beloved character among freaks like us (I use that term lovingly, lol). From what I’ve seen and heard, this is a very low budget film, and it’s not going to appeal to a wider audience no matter how much they try to soften it for the average moviegoer. It’d be much more fun if they leaned into the schlockiness and channeled 70s and 80s Cannon-style films.

[shevek]

I’d love it if one of our esteemed SHIP producers took a stab at a peril version of Red Sonja. 70s and 80s Cannon-style films.

Yeah, that would be nice, wouldn't it?
There really is very little. All that exists on C4S is the one Primal video everyone should know about already,
a Lora Cross clip called "Two Barbarian Warlords Fuck to Seal the Deal",
and a short Red Sonja series that Candle Boxx did which also featured an original character called "Silver Freya".
That's it!

A couple years ago in the middle of starting Heroineburgh Season 2, I had acquired a bit of chainmail garb and was planning to create a Red Sonja style character called Kurgana the Barbarian. The idea would be that she would transform from a nerd girl whenever she threw a certain set of magical D&D dice, and it would change her from a meek mathematician into a sexy barbarian warrior motivated only by lust and strong drink (mead). Our very enthusiastic Comicon booth assistant at the time was going to portray the character, but then the whole world went into lockdown, and she had severe Covidphobia and didn't work at Cons anymore. I still see her around the campus at Carnegie Mellon, and to this day, she is still wearing a very elaborate mask everywhere in public. It was weird.

Anyway, yeah, somebody do Red Sonja, and maybe put a nerd-to-hot TF in there for me too, please. The obvious candidate would seem to be Lucia Films?

[Mr. X]

I’d love it if one of our esteemed SHIP producers took a stab at a peril version of Red Sonja. There are some fantastic cosplayers who could provide inspiration.

On my site the S&S stuff seems to be a big meh. And I toss in nasty monsters and sex sex sex. Maybe I'm not doing it right. I love all that Queen's Blade, Dragon's Crown, Goblin Slayer naughtiness.

[DonShip]

My fiction erotic fantasy series, Goblin Slayer Arwyn, is my best seller. So people are reading erotic fantasy.

[Mr. X]

My fiction erotic fantasy series, Goblin Slayer Arwyn, is my best seller. So people are reading erotic fantasy.

Interesting. I guess my front end doesn't advertise this as much. I wanted to do another site that was S&S but never got to it.

[DonShip]

S&S is my first love. Sorry superheroines. Wait, I fell in love with Wonder Woman before I discovered sword and sorcery. Mmmmm.

[brdiy]

Just happened upon this now.

Thoughts?

P8JhbNg.jpeg (163.71 KiB) Viewed 46291 times

[Dazzle1]

Just happened upon this now.

Thoughts?

P8JhbNg.jpeg

Too much armour

[Joshua26]

I wasn't expecting much but I'll give it a go. Can't be worse than the 2011 Conan movie.

I get that! The 2011 Conan movie was a letdown, so hopefully this one surprises you in a good way.

[DonShip]

I was hoping for an actress and costume more like the comic book. So, disappointing.

[sneakly]

Why put her in a metal bikini if all it is going to do is deflect arrows and sword blows? Kind of defeats the point, doesn't it?

[Malice]

i think the director alone should raise red flags: she directed a few "gems".

During a 2022 interview, Bassett revealed that she decided to alter a key aspect of Sonya's backstory: her brutal rape by marauding enemies.

“I have no interest in fictional women who use [rape] as an engine of motivation,” she said. (I guess she wouldn't like it here)

“It’s not a strong motivation. She’s just a human being in the world of femininity.” I kinda agree with the first part, I feel rape does not sell cinema tickets (Thank fuck) Yet, the second part has me a tad bit afraid, now that being said, we'll see what it taste like when it comes out, it's been on the shelf for a while but apparently they working their CGI.

It's hard to know what the final design will look like but I agree to the common sentiment that the costume is a bit of a miss.

[sneakly]

i think the director alone should raise red flags: she directed a few "gems".

During a 2022 interview, Bassett revealed that she decided to alter a key aspect of Sonya's backstory: her brutal rape by marauding enemies.

“I have no interest in fictional women who use [rape] as an engine of motivation,” she said. (I guess she wouldn't like it here)

“It’s not a strong motivation. She’s just a human being in the world of femininity.” I kinda agree with the first part, I feel rape does not sell cinema tickets (Thank fuck) Yet, the second part has me a tad bit afraid, now that being said, we'll see what it taste like when it comes out, it's been on the shelf for a while but apparently they working their CGI.

It's hard to know what the final design will look like but I agree to the common sentiment that the costume is a bit of a miss.

Revenge for rape as a motivation is a pretty lazy motivation of a female character. It is not empowering and was one of the most over used tropes for female action films in the 1980s (Barbarian Queen,I Spit on Your Grave and pretty much any other movie from the 1980s).

Back when the character was created, it was by male writers for male readers and this was low hanging fruit for a female characters of the early 1970s. It was the feminized version of "you killed my family."

The up-armoring of the character really make no sense because she is still just wearing a metal bikini, just a bulky and unattractive one. They might have been better served by embracing what made the original RS and Conan movies fun and given it a wink and a nudge. It reminds me of what George Lucas said about Princess Lea... "they don't have bras in space."

[Femina]

https://twitter.com/BoundingComics/stat ... 2823084284
Great We now know how this is going to turn out.

Notice how its a character males create that they bastardize but they never make an empowering movie about a historical female like Joan of Arc or that woman who was a pirate. Or just make some empowered female. Why does it have to be the revamping of some other thing.

First of all... Joan of Arc isn't a fictional character with superpowers and a convoluted history of uncertain 'canon?'. I don't see that this comparison is valid.

As for the Pirate you're probably thinking of Anne Bonney... who is also not a fictional character.

It's far more forgivable to revamp a fictional character than a historic one... I think that much is pretty obvious...

That said, I only sort of half agree with this manner of thinking because...

I wouldn't ever call her a character that FULLY 'catered' to the male fantasy. Now OBVIOUSLY visually she always has, though I think this line of thinking often fails to recognize that there's plenty of women who are just fine with a bit of sex appeal, all that said Red Sonja in the NARRATIVE has always been VERY much an 'untouchable' sort, and once Dynamic or whoever got the rights to her and began making stories about her, they have always been very much Sonja's stories, Sonja's agency etc... and even before Dynamic the character hasn't actually EVER been portrayed as someone dudes could ever actually get with. She once told CONAN himself basically to get over it when he was like 'I think it's sad you aren't more womanly' she literally quotes with disgust, "You'd have me raise Brats instead of Hell?" 'Well too bad so sad.'

We've already seen the costume, I think it's pretty good and sexy for actual practical FILM MAKING on a real human being (you couldn't actually put someone in Red Sonja's comic accurate costume without posing a safety hazard. All that chainmail chafing on naked skin doesn't work if you don't have super powers) and I read this to basically amount to 'yeah Sonja isn't a woman that's gonna fall for no man!!' which.... That's ALWAYS been the case.

Edit: Uh... Jesus Christ.... The site really seems to be glitching out these days. The dark theme no longer works so I'm being blinded at all hours of the day, but when I clicked on this, it presented the post I just responded to as the LATEST post............. then on refresh revealed this was the topic INITIATING post from half a year ago... so... if it seems confusing I'd suddenly take interest in this post Mr. X, it's cause the website tricked me!

Just happened upon this now.

Thoughts?

P8JhbNg.jpeg

Too much armour

Sonja's actual armor is unsuitable for reality. They've obviously gone with her sorta 'secondary' official look here because it's actually practical for a human being to wear in real life. Chainmail Bikini's would literally chafe a woman's nipples off after only a few hours of any sort of strenuous activity. There's a reason chainmail is worn OVER padded jackets in actual historical armor.

[Dazzle1]

https://twitter.com/BoundingComics/stat ... 2823084284
Great We now know how this is going to turn out.

Notice how its a character males create that they bastardize but they never make an empowering movie about a historical female like Joan of Arc or that woman who was a pirate. Or just make some empowered female. Why does it have to be the revamping of some other thing.

First of all... Joan of Arc isn't a fictional character with superpowers and a convoluted history of uncertain 'canon?'. I don't see that this comparison is valid.

As for the Pirate you're probably thinking of Anne Bonney... who is also not a fictional character.

It's far more forgivable to revamp a fictional character than a historic one... I think that much is pretty obvious...

That said, I only sort of half agree with this manner of thinking because...

I wouldn't ever call her a character that FULLY 'catered' to the male fantasy. Now OBVIOUSLY visually she always has, though I think this line of thinking often fails to recognize that there's plenty of women who are just fine with a bit of sex appeal, all that said Red Sonja in the NARRATIVE has always been VERY much an 'untouchable' sort, and once Dynamic or whoever got the rights to her and began making stories about her, they have always been very much Sonja's stories, Sonja's agency etc... and even before Dynamic the character hasn't actually EVER been portrayed as someone dudes could ever actually get with. She once told CONAN himself basically to get over it when he was like 'I think it's sad you aren't more womanly' she literally quotes with disgust, "You'd have me raise Brats instead of Hell?" 'Well too bad so sad.'

We've already seen the costume, I think it's pretty good and sexy for actual practical FILM MAKING on a real human being (you couldn't actually put someone in Red Sonja's comic accurate costume without posing a safety hazard. All that chainmail chafing on naked skin doesn't work if you don't have super powers) and I read this to basically amount to 'yeah Sonja isn't a woman that's gonna fall for no man!!' which.... That's ALWAYS been the case.

Edit: Uh... Jesus Christ.... The site really seems to be glitching out these days. The dark theme no longer works so I'm being blinded at all hours of the day, but when I clicked on this, it presented the post I just responded to as the LATEST post............. then on refresh revealed this was the topic INITIATING post from half a year ago... so... if it seems confusing I'd suddenly take interest in this post Mr. X, it's cause the website tricked me!

Just happened upon this now.

Thoughts?

P8JhbNg.jpeg

Too much armour

Sonja's actual armor is unsuitable for reality. They've obviously gone with her sorta 'secondary' official look here because it's actually practical for a human being to wear in real life. Chainmail Bikini's would literally chafe a woman's nipples off after only a few hours of any sort of strenuous activity. There's a reason chainmail is worn OVER padded jackets in actual historical armor.

I prefer the Prosilver for viewing

Regarding Who Red Sonja who is catered too , yes it was created for male readers. Marvel comics who owned the property was knows for emphasizing the women with big tits. Sonja, the Assgardians, Spider Woman,Sheena,Ms Marvel etc the

That was the sexist mindset

[Malice]

Regarding Who Red Sonja who is catered too , yes it was created for male readers. Marvel comics who owned the property was knows for emphasizing the women with big tits. Sonja, the Assgardians, Spider Woman,Sheena,Ms Marvel etc the

The one I highlighted looks cool!

[Femina]

I prefer the Prosilver for viewing

Regarding Who Red Sonja who is catered too , yes it was created for male readers. Marvel comics who owned the property was knows for emphasizing the women with big tits. Sonja, the Assgardians, Spider Woman,Sheena,Ms Marvel etc the

That was the sexist mindset

I think you're missing my point... VISUALLY there's no question whatsoever whose 'gaze' Sonja was courting, I don't think there's any real argument on this. I meant to point out that despite this, Sonja NEVER had a 'male gaze' centric personality. She's not just a 'difficult to court' fantasy she's not playing 'hard to get', Red Sonja plays 'I'm IMPOSSIBLE to get' which may present various male 'fantasies' I guess but whoopdedoo, that's an uncontrollable reality of the universe, there's no controlling peoples imaginations and there shouldn't be... but in terms of what that means for her 'depiction' historically Red Sonja is about as 'strong female protagonist' as it's even POSSIBLE to be.

Red Sonja more than nearly ALL other fictional heroines, is absolutely an 'untouchable' powerful woman who holds ALL the agency... which ALREADY basically caters to the strong female protag persona being pushed so often nowadays... only she's been this way since her inception, no recency bias necessary. I guess what I'm saying is, that opening statement from Lutz doesn't hold a lot of water to ME as a WOMAN... visually we've seen her costume and while it's not a chainmail bikini, it's showing more skin even than Wonder Woman does in her films, and if her comment was meant to be 'less male gazey in character'.... then it still means very little because Red Sonja was never WRITTEN as a 'male gaze' character. She was ALWAYS written as a woman whom in real life, would frighten men off. Her character design was always a bit of 'brilliance' in marketing the male interest in a female character they would otherwise probably be fully disinterested in. She is essentially 'the original barbarian babe' for male salivatory glands to work over... and simultaneously one of the original fictional 'hyper feminists'.

[Dazzle1]

I prefer the Prosilver for viewing

Regarding Who Red Sonja who is catered too , yes it was created for male readers. Marvel comics who owned the property was knows for emphasizing the women with big tits. Sonja, the Assgardians, Spider Woman,Sheena,Ms Marvel etc the

That was the sexist mindset

I think you're missing my point... VISUALLY there's no question whatsoever whose 'gaze' Sonja was courting, I don't think there's any real argument on this. I meant to point out that despite this, Sonja NEVER had a 'male gaze' centric personality. She's not just a 'difficult to court' fantasy she's not playing 'hard to get', Red Sonja plays 'I'm IMPOSSIBLE to get' which may present various male 'fantasies' I guess but whoopdedoo, that's an uncontrollable reality of the universe, there's no controlling peoples imaginations and there shouldn't be... but in terms of what that means for her 'depiction' historically Red Sonja is about as 'strong female protagonist' as it's even POSSIBLE to be.

Red Sonja more than nearly ALL other fictional heroines, is absolutely an 'untouchable' powerful woman who holds ALL the agency... which ALREADY basically caters to the strong female protag persona being pushed so often nowadays... only she's been this way since her inception, no recency bias necessary. I guess what I'm saying is, that opening statement from Lutz doesn't hold a lot of water to ME as a WOMAN... visually we've seen her costume and while it's not a chainmail bikini, it's showing more skin even than Wonder Woman does in her films, and if her comment was meant to be 'less male gazey in character'.... then it still means very little because Red Sonja was never WRITTEN as a 'male gaze' character. She was ALWAYS written as a woman whom in real life, would frighten men off. Her character design was always a bit of 'brilliance' in marketing the male interest in a female character they would otherwise probably be fully disinterested in. She is essentially 'the original barbarian babe' for male salivatory glands to work over... and simultaneously one of the original fictional 'hyper feminists'.

The impossible to get fantasy is what the male fans want, we all envision ourselves getting her.

How many of us have not fantasized it?

[Femina]

The impossible to get fantasy is what the male fans want, we all envision ourselves getting her.

How many of us have not fantasized it?

No sure, I get this a bit it's just, to me I wager that the 'fantasy' of what one could or could not accomplish doesn't 'factually' matter in reality or in fictional depictions. When someone depicts a 'strong female protagonist' in a hyper feminist movie by example... there's nothing preventing an audience from fantasizing that they can be the one to steal their affections or dominate them or whatever right? People's fantasies are completely outside the realm of 'control'. There's no controlling (nor should there be) people's MINDS.

but in terms of 'depicting' Sonja... I just don't know that I imagine there is any more 'strong female protag' version of the character than the one that already exists?

[shevek]

Her character design was always a bit of 'brilliance' in marketing the male interest in a female character they would otherwise probably be fully disinterested in. She is essentially 'the original barbarian babe' for male salivatory glands to work over... and simultaneously one of the original fictional 'hyper feminists'.

That is correct. She is the utterly unattainable hot warrior goddess with complete agency. Not the first by any means: one of the prototypes might be H. Rider Haggard's "She" aka Ayesha from 1887, who was played by Ursula Andress in a movie in 1965, and then by Olinka Berova in a sequel. If you haven't seen those, you should.

I can also tell you that Red Sonja (or a generic sword-wielding unconquerable barbarian amazon representing her) has been an icon for quite a while for feminist musicians and performers in the heavy metal scene. There's an annual doom-metal festival in Pittsburgh which uses her as a symbol. So the concept is definitely alive and out there, and not just among the older dudes who collect the Frazetta and Vallejo prints.

But that might not be enough to get audiences to the theaters. In order to be successful, especially to the male audience which dominates the Sword and Sandals action genre, the sex appeal has to also be approachable, aka they have to be able to some extent to fantasize that they *can* get her, even if they really can't. And unfortunately, I'm going to have to say this has to do with that whole "you should smile more" conundrum which the current generation of feminists are so against that they even mention it by name in movies like Captain Marvel.

If Matilda looks approachable *and* powerful at the same time in the film's promotion, the film could be at least a minor success. If she's scowling all the time (as is shown in that photo), that could contribute to a negative impression causing it to tank. As could giving her too many traditionally male traits, which is a currently problem in various video games which are experiencing financial failure.

I know I'm going to get blowback on this, but this is a *heroine* we're talking about, not a sexy villainess like, say, Maleficent. There has to some kind of triumphant joy and enthusiasm and appealing swagger in the portrayal. It worked for Gal Gadot quite nicely. She played the perfect woman and we were all rooting for Steve Trevor. The difference with Red Sonja is that she really has never had any lasting romantic interests, and so through whom, exactly, are we going to live vicariously?

I guess we'll see, eh?

[Femina]

Her character design was always a bit of 'brilliance' in marketing the male interest in a female character they would otherwise probably be fully disinterested in. She is essentially 'the original barbarian babe' for male salivatory glands to work over... and simultaneously one of the original fictional 'hyper feminists'.

That is correct. She is the utterly unattainable hot warrior goddess with complete agency. Not the first by any means: one of the prototypes might be H. Rider Haggard's "She" aka Ayesha from 1887, who was played by Ursula Andress in a movie in 1965, and then by Olinka Berova in a sequel. If you haven't seen those, you should.

I can also tell you that Red Sonja (or a generic sword-wielding unconquerable barbarian amazon representing her) has been an icon for quite a while for feminist musicians and performers in the heavy metal scene. There's an annual doom-metal festival in Pittsburgh which uses her as a symbol. So the concept is definitely alive and out there, and not just among the older dudes who collect the Frazetta and Vallejo prints.

But that might not be enough to get audiences to the theaters. In order to be successful, especially to the male audience which dominates the Sword and Sandals action genre, the sex appeal has to also be approachable, aka they have to be able to some extent to fantasize that they *can* get her, even if they really can't. And unfortunately, I'm going to have to say this has to do with that whole "you should smile more" conundrum which the current generation of feminists are so against that they even mention it by name in movies like Captain Marvel.

If Matilda looks approachable *and* powerful at the same time in the film's promotion, the film could be at least a minor success. If she's scowling all the time (as is shown in that photo), that could contribute to a negative impression causing it to tank. As could giving her too many traditionally male traits, which is a currently problem in various video games which are experiencing financial failure.

I know I'm going to get blowback on this, but this is a *heroine* we're talking about, not a sexy villainess like, say, Maleficent. There has to some kind of triumphant joy and enthusiasm and appealing swagger in the portrayal. It worked for Gal Gadot quite nicely. She played the perfect woman and we were all rooting for Steve Trevor. The difference with Red Sonja is that she really has never had any lasting romantic interests, and so through whom, exactly, are we going to live vicariously?

I guess we'll see, eh?

For sure there's almost never an 'original' though in my opinion. Like, even if you have an 'original' that you can link back with, you often find the person who created that 'original' was inspired by something that's simply beyond the memory of popular culture. I think it's fair to say, and few would argue against, that Sonja is one of the FORMATIVE characters of her particular archetype. Diablo 3's fembarb is a redhead, and I think we can basically find a direct link back from red headed barbarian babes all the way to Sonja... so much so when they made their League of Legends blizzard game they just went and NAMED the Barb 'Sonya'

I'm not interested in the 'smile more' department. This sorta thing feels more of a preferential politics tagline for me... or else something that exists on a case by case basis. I think whether characters should or shouldn't do one thing or another is different for, and variable to, whatever the 'thing' is... Should say, supergirl be smiling a lot, yeah I think she probably should be... but so should superman right? Do we want 'the punisher' doing a ton of smiling though? No I don't think we do. It varies based upon what the character's expressed purpose in the narrative is. I don't think Sonja is a character whose likability is particularly vested in how much she smiles. As I noted earlier, a lot of her earliest character work was based in a position of actual 'disgust' for the typical feminine reality. When Conan indicated she might be happier if she were more feminine in their first meeting with one another, her response was one of disgust for the typical female condition, her response is one disgusted by the expectation the world places on her in that way, and she fuckin KNOCKS CONAN UNCONSCIOUS when they're about to say their goodbyes to prevent any sort of fond farewells to occur. She wants no kids, she wants nothing more than to wander the world as she does seeking her vengeance and fortunes. A person can read undertones of bitterness there want there if they want to... like, a deep element of her psyche yearning for more 'womanly' things... but ultimately the old works and the new illustrate that those things aren't 'for' Sonja, and Sonja isn't 'for' those things. She is what she is, and smiling a ton I don't think is a part of that... she's not Kara Danvers hoping to inspire little girls to be brave in the face of danger right? The character and setting should dictate these sorts of things (though I get where you're coming from in a 'marketing' sense, in THAT sense I think it may or may not be true dependent more or less true depending on the individual fanbase itself over than anything else)

[Malice]

For sure there's almost never an 'original' though in my opinion. Like, even if you have an 'original' that you can link back with, you often find the person who created that 'original' was inspired by something that's simply beyond the memory of popular culture.

I think we can and should all agree on this.

Folklore’s beauty lies in its cross-cultural echoes for instance. Yet, fans often guard their beloved lore like precious relics.

Your point about Superman’s smile is spot-on.

Be that as it may, it's OK to want to offer different takes, like Injustice’s, who still honor the essence of Superman's character while offering fresh perspectives.

What often frustrates me is the urge to completely rewrite characters or story-lines instead of exploring new dimensions within their existing framework.

[jlocke]

I'm not sure where the expectations are coming from. What year do you all think it is? On my earth calendar it is 2024, not 1974. That was like (does quick math) at least 20 years ago. We have porn now. Porn everywhere. You want naked Warrior Women, we got that! Women in skimpy chain mail bikinis? We got that! 1080p versions of classic Sword and Sandal Movies Deathstalker, Barbarian Queen, Amazons? We fucking got that! I got those as soon as they were available, and I highly recommend all 3 of these films.

What's the expectation fellas? That a corporation would invest a $100 million dollars on a softcore action-fest? Seriously?

However, if you gentlemen could scrounge up a few bucks, I guarentee and Only Fans girl will definitely wear whatever you want her to, and will definitely do what ever you want her to. Even sword fight.

But you gotta pay for that. Good news, it doesn't cost $100 million dollars. Those movies are made slightly differently with slightly different audiences in mind.

Or we could just take make some stuff ourselves.

Matilda Lutz as Red Sonja:

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The original movie with Brigitte Nielsen was awesome! And so bad. But, it's free on Youtube (North America) with a few ads, and it is worth a rewatch. I love the atmosphere and Classic Arnold is always cool. Sandahl Bergman is the great villain. Highly worth the 0$ it costs right now.

[Dogfish]

This thread, and the state of movies like this in general, has got me wondering about something.

Look at the original Red Sonja movie, or something else like Flash Gordon. Bad movies, definitely, but the ways they were bad at least made them interesting. And sure there's a lot of their peers that are bad without being interesting and are duly forgotten. But people don't seem to make bad movies like that any more.

Bad movies these days tend to be just, well, bad.

The only movies I can think of that manage to be bad but good these days are the Monsterverse ones. Just dumb as all hell. If they were made back in the day they'd have Doug McClure and Peter Cushing in them, plus a bunch of rubber dinosaurs. And I'd also argue that those movies are actually, y'know, good in a lot of ways and probably don't deserve the comparison.

I guess what I mean is there needs to be more bad movies that are still fun. I guess the recent Roadhouse fit the bill? But I want more.

[jlocke]

This thread, and the state of movies like this in general, has got me wondering about something.

Look at the original Red Sonja movie, or something else like Flash Gordon. Bad movies, definitely, but the ways they were bad at least made them interesting. And sure there's a lot of their peers that are bad without being interesting and are duly forgotten. But people don't seem to make bad movies like that any more.

Bad movies these days tend to be just, well, bad.

The only movies I can think of that manage to be bad but good these days are the Monsterverse ones. Just dumb as all hell. If they were made back in the day they'd have Doug McClure and Peter Cushing in them, plus a bunch of rubber dinosaurs. And I'd also argue that those movies are actually, y'know, good in a lot of ways and probably don't deserve the comparison.

I guess what I mean is there needs to be more bad movies that are still fun. I guess the recent Roadhouse fit the bill? But I want more.

I think that's a fun exercise. I'm looking for so Bad They're Good movies from the last 20 years, and I'm coming up empty. What was Roger Corman doing in the 2000's?

More Matilda Lutz as Red Sonja:

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[Femina]

This thread, and the state of movies like this in general, has got me wondering about something.

Look at the original Red Sonja movie, or something else like Flash Gordon. Bad movies, definitely, but the ways they were bad at least made them interesting. And sure there's a lot of their peers that are bad without being interesting and are duly forgotten. But people don't seem to make bad movies like that any more.

Bad movies these days tend to be just, well, bad.

The only movies I can think of that manage to be bad but good these days are the Monsterverse ones. Just dumb as all hell. If they were made back in the day they'd have Doug McClure and Peter Cushing in them, plus a bunch of rubber dinosaurs. And I'd also argue that those movies are actually, y'know, good in a lot of ways and probably don't deserve the comparison.

I guess what I mean is there needs to be more bad movies that are still fun. I guess the recent Roadhouse fit the bill? But I want more.

Fantastic as Flash was "Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah! Savior of the Universe!"

Nobody was TRYING to make bad movies then, nor are they now. A so bad it's good film is always an accident.

[Malice]

Nobody was TRYING to make bad movies then, nor are they now. A so bad it's good film is always an accident.

To be fair, Uwe Boll is still around...

And I fear to imagine what "Red Sonja" would have looked like under his direction. Sure, he’d bring out the sexy, but at what cost?

[digitalbleh]

Inb4 movie is about her feelings with no action what so ever.

[Dogfish]

Nobody was TRYING to make bad movies then, nor are they now. A so bad it's good film is always an accident.

To be fair, Uwe Boll is still around...

And I fear to imagine what "Red Sonja" would have looked like under his direction. Sure, he’d bring out the sexy, but at what cost?

Uwe Boll is a case in point. His movies are dogshit. And it's not because he's too 'safe' either, he's not trying to be inoffensive or go by the numbers, he's just incredibly shit at directing movies.