Tomb Raider: The Legend of Lara Croft animated series (Netflix, 2024)

[shevek]

Anyone check this out yet? First 8-episode season dropped on Oct 10.

Have you been a fan of the franchise? One of the most consistently beautiful protagonists in modern culture.
But, I imagine, they're doing what they can to quash that lately.

Critical Drinker doesn't like it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omNshRfKKFU
But I'm aware some of you don't like him much, so you can make up your own mind, right?

I'm willing to give it a shot after I catch up on Superman & Lois, if anyone thinks it's worth the time.

[Malice]

Hey there!

I gotta say, for me, the visuals aren’t really striking enough. Bit of a letdown, honestly. I grew up with the series, but I kinda drifted away after the first PS2 game, which was a dud for me. Came back around for "Anniversary" and the reboot, I enjoyed those takes on Lara, thought they were solid and brought some fresh air to the franchise.

I love Lara, no doubt about that, and I’m open to something new, but from what I’ve seen, this series just looks like it’s leaning into all the usual tropes. I’ve fantasized plenty about what an anime with a production quality comparable to those of a live-action "Tomb Raider" could look like, and, well... that ain’t it.

That said, I was genuinely impressed with "Castlevania," so who knows? Maybe this could surprise me too.

All I know is that the usual suspects are bashing it, and the diehards are defending it to the end. So I figure, why not give it a shot myself? November’s still a while off, and "The Penguin" isn’t over yet, so might as well fill the time, right?

[dajinx1]

Anyone check this out yet? First 8-episode season dropped on Oct 10.

Have you been a fan of the franchise? One of the most consistently beautiful protagonists in modern culture.
But, I imagine, they're doing what they can to quash that lately.

Critical Drinker doesn't like it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omNshRfKKFU
But I'm aware some of you don't like him much, so you can make up your own mind, right?

I'm willing to give it a shot after I catch up on Superman & Lois, if anyone thinks it's worth the time.

I tried watching this twice but I haven't gotten past the first episode. it just didn't grip me into the story and I didn't find Lara very interesting or enthralling. On the other hand, I'm really enjoying Amazon's "Legend of Vox Machina". A lot of fun and gripping within the first 5 minutes.

[ivandobsky]

Hey there!
I’ve fantasized plenty about what an anime live-action "Tomb Raider" could look like

Not sure what anime live-action means here, but check out Tomb Raider Revisioned https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... BfwqQ_I4r0 . The first episodes are from Peter Chung of Aeon Flux fame, and in my opinion, those are great!

The new cartoon looks like something I wouldn't enjoy.

[shevek]

On the other hand, I'm really enjoying Amazon's "Legend of Vox Machina". A lot of fun and gripping within the first 5 minutes.

I watched Season 1 in its entirety and started a thread about it at the time.
https://superheroineforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=203941

I guess that by now it's somewhat of a cult favorite since it has had 3 seasons.

But as far as Lara Croft's new animated run, I guess the overall verdict is nah?

[Malice]

Hey there!
I’ve fantasized plenty about what an anime live-action "Tomb Raider" could look like

Not sure what anime live-action means here, but check out Tomb Raider Revisioned https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... BfwqQ_I4r0 . The first episodes are from Peter Chung of Aeon Flux fame, and in my opinion, those are great!

The new cartoon looks like something I wouldn't enjoy.

Fuck me pink! the first 20 seconds of that thing felt like it came out of a PS1 disc.

[Dogfish]

I couldn't get into this show at all. I skimmed it, because it was kind of drab.

I like Tomb Raider but I like it in spite of what it keeps trying to be. The rebooted Tomb Raider games for example are some of the best people-hunting stealth games out there. They are not quite up there with the Arkham games, but they're really good, and Lara Croft, as what I have heard described as 'Gap Year Rambo', is a wildly brutal character. She's caked in mud, she's creeping about, she's killing people with a fucking axe. Love to see it.

But this TV show, without the violence, what have you got? The Croft Family Melodrama and that's about it.

A problem with this younger iteration of the character is the fixation on her dad and whatever Uncharted shit he was getting into. And it's so dull.

There's a huge problem with this franchise though that people misremember it badly. They were not great games. The Angelina Jolie movies and the more recent reboot were bang average. There's two or is it three recent games that are really good action stealth games, but that's kind of it. People seem to be expecting way more from it that it has ever delivered.

[Mr. X]

There's a huge problem with this franchise though that people misremember it badly. They were not great games. The Angelina Jolie movies and the more recent reboot were bang average. There's two or is it three recent games that are really good action stealth games, but that's kind of it. People seem to be expecting way more from it that it has ever delivered.

The original game was made as a tech demo for a video card.

[Bladebur]

There's a huge problem with this franchise though that people misremember it badly. They were not great games. The Angelina Jolie movies and the more recent reboot were bang average. There's two or is it three recent games that are really good action stealth games, but that's kind of it. People seem to be expecting way more from it that it has ever delivered.

The first game was good, but somewhat overrated (the PS1 era one). It was a decent port to 3D of animation-constrained platforming, competently made, even if the mechanic is inherently flawed. It had excellent level design and a sense of exploration and fighting a dangerous environment that you never see nowadays except perhaps in some Souls. I’ve enjoyed the modern trilogies, but I find them forgettable. I’ve been replaying the remastered versions of the originals and consider them far better games, even with the flaws.

The problem with the franchise is that everybody from the publisher to the original author misunderstood their own success and their own character. Lara has been reinvented so many times now, and every new iteration gets worse and worse.

[sneakly]

I haven't played the games or seen the most recent movie iterations (Angelina was a bigger than life version, which was what I thought the character should look like/ act like). When you look at the most successful heroines, Batgirl, WW, Electra Woman, Mary Marvel and Xena out in the wild, no matter how independently minded and shrewd they may have been, they all came from a misogynistic(patronizing?) male imagination. Lara Croft wasn't any different, and probably more so.

The idea was to have a typical first person game, but the protagonist was supposed to provide a pair of hot pants and large bouncing breasts to enhance otherwise mediocre game play. Linda Carter got the WW part not because she has a gorgeous face (which she did), but because she a fantastic set of tits that adolescent boys could stare at in the vain hope one of the nip slip would escape the editing process.

That all those women were sexy AF did not detract from the female audience enjoying the characters any less. Xena became a lesbian icon while running around in a leather bra and miniskirt. A well written character that people like, doesn't have to be wearing a burka to be taken seriously. A poorly written character in a burka will be off the air in a matter of weeks. A metal bikini might make her hold on for a few more weeks, but that may be what is needed for the writers to figure out who the character is (preferably while keeping the metal Bikini). If Erin Gray had kept wearing the season one spandex during season two of Buck Rogers, the series might have lasted longer.

[shevek]

When you look at the most successful heroines, Batgirl, WW, Electra Woman, Mary Marvel and Xena out in the wild, no matter how independently minded and shrewd they may have been, they all came from a misogynistic male imagination. Lara Croft wasn't any different, and probably more so.

I agree with everything you said in the previous post, except for the statement above.

These heroines came from a PHILOGYNISTIC male imagination. Come on, you really think that a bunch of artistically-inclined nerdy Jewish and Italian guys in comic book art studios in the 1930s hated women? Of course not. They worshipped them; they fantasized about them; they wanted to be with them. They were some of the most 'feminist' men of their time.

We could go in the weeds on this, but I'd rather not; I'd prefer to just nip this in the bud.

[ivandobsky]

They were not great games.

Perhaps by todays standard the controls were a bit clunky and the graphics are unimpressive, but at the time, the games were quite spectacular and immersive.

bouncing breasts

Early Lara was comprised of a series of rigid components. Like the first Resident Evil games. No jiggling.

I find the whole sexy characters that appeal to men is "hatred" of women idea to be really strange.

[sneakly]

I wouldn't describe misogynistic, in this case, as a hatred, but more a lack of respect (compared to today's standards). Batgirl wasn't allowed to use judo or punch the villains because the producers thought it wasn't ladylike. In a way I appreciate that choice. The dancer aspect of Batgirl's fights were pretty sexy. Mary Marvel could be neutralized with thick gag, again I like the aesthetic aspect of it, but the metaphor of silencing a woman to control her is very 1950s. WW could be made helpless by a man by binding her. Again, love the aesthetic aspect, but still very 1940s/50s view of Women.

An overarching theme in a lot of the material, even today is very patronizing towards female characters. Black Widow didn't get her own movie until very late, Black scorpion had a patronizing policeman friend and wore a thong and high heels. When Supergirl got her own show, they had a cheese cake fashion montage before they stuck her in the miniskirt and cape. I am not against any of these things, but it does lend itself to the objectification.

Misogynist is, perhaps, a stronger phrase than I should've chosen.

[sneakly]

They were not great games.

Perhaps by todays standard the controls were a bit clunky and the graphics are unimpressive, but at the time, the games were quite spectacular and immersive.

bouncing breasts

Early Lara was comprised of a series of rigid components. Like the first Resident Evil games. No jiggling.

I find the whole sexy characters that appeal to men is "hatred" of women idea to be really strange.

Let's go with patronizing/ objectifying view of women. And I am pretty sure every kid was praying the next generation of the game would have better graphics to simulate the behavior of physics on the character's boobs. A lot of actresses did find the episodes of them in skimpy outfits objectionable, no matter how much we appreciated them. Diana Rigg was very up front about being aware that her character was about selling bondage on TV. Jeanie, Charlies' Angels, not all the actresses appreciated being stuffed into tiny costumes. And it was for the male gaze. You see less of that today, because those exploitive takes on women are not as tolerated as they used to be. When you read about how Hollywood operated, not every one was in praise of the female form, some were down right predatory.

[Malice]

There's a huge problem with this franchise though that people misremember it badly. They were not great games.

The first game was good, but somewhat overrated (the PS1 era one). It was a decent port to 3D of animation-constrained platforming, competently made, even if the mechanic is inherently flawed.

I think that not contextualizing the gaming landscape at the time makes your statement harsher than they need to be.

Back in the '90s and early 2000s, gaming was like the wild west.

If you dive back into the games released at the time, there are a few key things that really set "Tomb Raider" apart. For one, traversal and movement mechanics were groundbreaking.

The whole concept of navigating complex 3D environments was brand new: 3D platformers were just getting off the ground. Moving from 2D to 3D wasn’t just a simple graphics upgrade, it meant developers had to rethink everything. They were forced to come up with new designs, fresh ideas, and processes that had barely ever been attempted before.

3D technology already existed, sure, but not to the scale that the PS1 brought it to.

What Tomb Raider brought to the table was a realistic (for the time) model of a 3D character performing a variety of acrobatics and somewhat complex animations. Using the available rigs at the time, they managed to create movement that stood out and made some noise in the industry.

Excalibur 2555 A.D 1997

Tomb Raider1996


Now I'm taking a really extreme example, but still, even "Resident Evil" would be considered garbage if we were to go down that road

Game developers were experimenting and, frankly, figuring things out as they went along. That’s why we got some of the most iconic and innovative games during the span of that generation. And across the board, not just on PS1.

Whether it was "Tomb Raider" or even something like "Ape Escape" with its joystick controls, or even "Mario 3D" which was mind-blowing, it was a very special thing to be a gamer at that time.

Lara’s animations and movement had everyone in awe. Despite the jagged edges and clunky controls by today’s standards, it felt like a revolution back then. "Tomb Raider" had this immersive feel to it, whether it was climbing, swimming, or shooting.

And the level design was groundbreaking too for its time. It wasn’t just about blasting through enemies, it was about solving puzzles, exploring fantasized lost remnants of past eras, understanding a level gimmick to make it to the next, and Lara of course.


No doubt Lara's curves were a major part of why she stuck in people’s heads though, I give you that. Take the exact same game, have Lara replaced by a preachy, fully-covered A+ model in the other, and guess which one would do better...

"At four and a half months old, a human fetus has a reptile’s tail, a remnant of our evolution. Maybe that’s what I couldn’t escape; you can fight a lot of enemies and survive, but if you fight your biology, you always lose."


Lara, Xena, Sonja, and the rest? They weren’t just about looking good. Their characters inspired millions, and they did so by having something for everyone.

Cultural relevance isn’t something that just happens randomly.

It had excellent level design and a sense of exploration and fighting a dangerous environment that you never see nowadays except perhaps in some Souls.

Yes, intricate levels, I mean the Venice section(TRII) when it came out was a thing of beauty.

These heroines came from a PHILOGYNISTIC male imagination. Come on, you really think that a bunch of artistically-inclined nerdy Jewish and Italian guys in comic book art studios in the 1930s hated women? Of course not. They worshipped them; they fantasized about them; they wanted to be with them. They were some of the most 'feminist' men of their time.

Italian men tend to be misogynistic, even now. I would know I'm of Italian descent.

Spoiler

The word "macho" isn't Brazilian after all.

Even in countries like America, a lot of opportunities were denied to women in the past because they didn’t fit the expectations of the time. Not judging or anything, but that's fact.

It's always hard to properly conceptualize how things were back then since we barely understand what the present even is, as Machiavelli reminds us.

The issue isn’t the way characters are dressed or portrayed. It’s about how certain forces keep trying to normalize thoughts, censoring instincts. There’s nothing wrong with writing bold or daring story-lines, as long as they stay within fiction.

There's nothing wrong with wanting to celebrate femininity by crafting fantasized representation.

Art should be free to explore anything.

[shevek]

Italian men tend to be misogynistic, even now. I would know I'm of Italian descent.

Spoiler

The word "macho" isn't Brazilian after all.

Overall, I agree with you on everything else you said, but these statements have to be qualified.
If some Italian men tend to be misogynistic, it was not the nerdy guys in the comic book art studios of the Golden Age, I assure you.
They might have been patronizing and objectifying and worshipping (as Sneakly points out), but the creators of superheroines never hated woen.

And secondly, "macho" IS, in fact, Brazilian.
The word macho is Spanish and Portuguese (as is its predecessor, 'caballerismo').

In Italian, it would be something like 'mascolinita', if there is a specific word for extreme maleness in Italian (and there probably is, but I just don't know it.)

Also, I didn't check the science, but I kind of doubt fetuses specifically have a 'reptile's tail' at four months. I think it's more likely to be a monkey's tail.

[Malice]

Overall, I agree with you on everything else you said, but these statements have to be qualified.
If some Italian men tend to be misogynistic, it was not the nerdy guys in the comic book art studios of the Golden Age, I assure you.
They might have been patronizing and objectifying and worshipping (as Sneakly points out), but the creators of superheroines never hated woen.

While society may have been patriarchal throughout the 18th century, I would not classify all of Burgundy's peasantry at that time as tyrannical oppressors either. I'm sure they had better things to do.

The desire to tell stories that incorporate a certain degree of eroticism can be seen as an act of worship, and I think we can agree that most of those men likely would not assault women in the streets, and the same applies in reverse.

What I'm saying is that there is a cultural heritage in Italy that contributes to create misogyny.

There are just aspects in each culture that varies from countries to countries and in Italy, I can tell you that you will see a lot more classic display of traditional family values than you would say in France or Switzerland for example.

And they're not entirely misogynistic oppressors either. But it's in the expectations, the conversations you have with people there, it's a lot more intricate and subtle than just "Oh they're all macho!" of course.

While things have improved since my youth, because the new generation is gradually changing things around, I can still certainly feel the difference whenever I return to Sicily.

I see where you comin' from though, I'm just callin' a spade a spade.

And secondly, "macho" IS, in fact, Brazilian.
The word macho is Spanish and Portuguese (as is its predecessor, 'caballerismo').

In Italian, it would be something like 'mascolinita', if there is a specific word for extreme maleness in Italian (and there probably is, but I just don't know it.)

So I chimed in the family on this:

In Italian, they say (and I speak under the authority of my old fella on this) that the word is maschio in Italian, then he said something I will not repeat (safe that there was cazzo in the sentence ) and then mentioned that anyway since Spanish is derivative of Latin, at the end of the day...

But then I also remembered that he once said that Italy won the 2006 World Cup fair and square... So I did a bit of digging and apparently the term has in deed been coined in Spain, hence why we it's spelled macho, so I guess I stand corrected.

Also, I didn't check the science, but I kind of doubt fetuses specifically have a 'reptile's tail' at four months. I think it's more likely to be a monkey's tail.

It's a quote from "Lord of War". The point being until AI comes up with a solution, there's no way to control men's or women's desire for that matter.

And in the context, it's always easier to sell a product with a sexy label on it because it just sells, you can twist it anyway you want but at the end of the day.... Sex sells.

[VegaTaxeca]

Talking of Switzerland, I'd like to point out, that it took until 1971 that women gained the right to vote there. And that was at first only in federal elections, in some of their regions, it was even later. I think the last one only followed in 190.

[sneakly]

Talking of Switzerland, I'd like to point out, that it took until 1971 that women gained the right to vote there. And that was at first only in federal elections, in some of their regions, it was even later. I think the last one only followed in 190.

Women in the US were not allowed to get credit cards without their husbands approval in the US until the late 1960s/ early 70s. Culture was very different 50 years ago. Women would get arrested for prostitution, but not the johns hiring them.

[Mr. X]

Women in the US were not allowed to get credit cards without their husbands approval in the US until the late 1960s/ early 70s. Culture was very different 50 years ago. Women would get arrested for prostitution, but not the johns hiring them.

Not true. A married woman with no source of income other than her husband could not get a card without his approval. OF COURSE NOT. Women who had a source of income could get cards. Also most cards in the 70s were specific business cards like a sears card or a Texaco gas card.

Wives could work and not be obligated under the law to spend the money on the family. She could spend it on anything she wanted.

[tmon]

Not in LA in 76 I got stopped by a police officer for just walking around in Anaheim in 76! You can guess what I was looking for! I was in the USAF at that time and he asked if I had a weekend pass. Ha ha! We didn't have those.

Talking of Switzerland, I'd like to point out, that it took until 1971 that women gained the right to vote there. And that was at first only in federal elections, in some of their regions, it was even later. I think the last one only followed in 190.

Women in the US were not allowed to get credit cards without their husbands approval in the US until the late 1960s/ early 70s. Culture was very different 50 years ago. Women would get arrested for prostitution, but not the johns hiring them.

[VegaTaxeca]

Women in the US were not allowed to get credit cards without their husbands approval in the US until the late 1960s/ early 70s. Culture was very different 50 years ago. Women would get arrested for prostitution, but not the johns hiring them.

Not true. A married woman with no source of income other than her husband could not get a card without his approval. OF COURSE NOT. Women who had a source of income could get cards. Also most cards in the 70s were specific business cards like a sears card or a Texaco gas card.

Wives could work and not be obligated under the law to spend the money on the family. She could spend it on anything she wanted.

Of course, in many European coutries of that time (50s, 60s, some countries even in the 70s), a married woman needed the permission of her husband, to actually be allowed to have a job. I think the idea was that she would not have enough time for her duties as a wife (like cooking, cleaning, raising the children - maybe some others that were not named ).

[Mr. X]

Of course, in many European coutries of that time (50s, 60s, some countries even in the 70s), a married woman needed the permission of her husband, to actually be allowed to have a job. I think the idea was that she would not have enough time for her duties as a wife (like cooking, cleaning, raising the children - maybe some others that were not named ).

If you want to go back that far most of the men conscripted in WW1 did not have the right to vote. Only property owners could vote and yes women could vote if they owned property.

[Dogfish]

And in the context, it's always easier to sell a product with a sexy label on it because it just sells, you can twist it anyway you want but at the end of the day.... Sex sells.

Has to be pointed out, as mediocre as the games were, the fact they were marketed back in the day with a ludicrously hot babe in a latex version of the outfit had not insignificant cultural resonance on a lot of dudes. Especially because this was the era when that kind of thing wasn't totally ubiquitous on the Internets.

Still annoys me that they don't bring that back for the character. Inappropriate for the tone of the games now? Definitely. Still worth it though.

[Lurkndog]

The first Tomb Raider game was a great game. In an era where developers were still figuring out how to make a 3D game work, and most games had "tank controls" that made it tricky to even walk through a doorway (see the original Resident Evil games), Tomb Raider allowed Lara to jump, run, climb, somersault, slide, swim, shoot two guns at once, swap weapons, and a ton of other tricks I can't even remember. And it was all intuitive and easy.

There were also good to great moments in the story, like the T-Rex where it was like OH SHIT.

It was a huge breakthrough in gameplay, and it was all fully realized in the first game.

Tomb Raider 2 and 3 continued the excellence, adding new wrinkles like vehicles and chase scenes, and more realistic level design. They felt like you were playing an action thriller.

The more recent games have become too grimdark and murdery for my tastes, but the original trilogy deserved all the accolades they received.

[Femina]

What the hell is happening here? I clicked on the thread expecting talk about an Anime... got a discussion about women's historical voting rights and financial prospects.

Anyway...

Has to be pointed out, as mediocre as the games were, the fact they were marketed back in the day with a ludicrously hot babe in a latex version of the outfit had not insignificant cultural resonance on a lot of dudes. Especially because this was the era when that kind of thing wasn't totally ubiquitous on the Internets.

Still annoys me that they don't bring that back for the character. Inappropriate for the tone of the games now? Definitely. Still worth it though.

Idk if I'd call the original games 'mediocre sex sells' is the issue I have with this. Back in it's day, Tomb Raider was generally considered a really unique exploration game with a lot of really well done animations, interesting ideas with player control etc. The fact Lara continues to sell is as much to do with her ICONOCISM as one of 'the' great gaming leads as much or more than it probably ever had to do with 'sex' specifically (understanding that it certainly was an 'element' of that) Lara was never your 'typical' sex sells character. Busty and sexy yes... flaunty, whorish, overtly sexual in manner... no.

The original game's Lara Croft was so dedicated to being a posh British lady that she wouldn't even be caught dead walking improperly in a dungeon. Press shift and forward and she moved forward with the hardcore training of British royalty, she spoke properly and eloquently, and it juxtaposed against her 'profession' making her more than just a sexy Indiana Jones Knock off. She had identity, and recognizability beyond just being sexy. Whereas if we must 'measure' against other 'sexy' characters of the era didn't seem to translate to many other 'sex sells' style heroines in any long term strategy. MOST if not all of gaming's famous heroines have to be a lot more than just sexy to sell.

[Dogfish]

Maybe mileage varies for people not in the UK, but in Britain wherever Tomb Raider was being promoted on TV or at conventions or whatever there'd be a model with huge tits in a latex version of the costume. And I am not complaining. It was a simpler time. The sex sells side of things was more important than the game frankly.

Should be added, it paired with WipeOut being one of the first games to have a cool-as-fuck soundtrack. Games were breaking into mainstream culture in a big way.

[Malice]

The sex sells side of things was more important than the game frankly.

I think both aren't mutually exclusive, Lara looks helped her find her footing among the general audience, sure. Did it catch the eye of the medias at the time cause of it, meaning free advertising, sure.

Fair to say the multi platform release helped reach a larger pool of players than a superior "Mario 64" could as well.

But I stick to my dual guns, to me the most important part of Lara's success is what the studio managed to pull off in terms of animation and level design, the gun feel in the first wasn't that great, but by the time the second came out, I feel like they had addressed a lot of issues from their first draft.

[Bladebur]

I would also say that Mario 64 was a much better game, but the comparison is unfair since they didn't aim to do the same things. Tomb Raider was very character driven and cinematic; movement was slow and committed, the environment was a puzzle and not an obstacle course, etc. The game was an evolution of the Prince of Persia formula, which made sense, as Core Design was rooted in computer games and just expanding into the console market by the mid-90s. By the early 90s, computer and console games were vastly different beasts. The lack of dedicated hardware and controles, and other factors, made computer games slower, more cerebral, and more original, but arguably much worse on the action/control front.