Goodbye and Good Riddance Gatwa

[Dazzle1]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGE01yMNijQ

[Mr. X]

Really how many "Surprise its the cybermen" episodes can be done?

The whole series kind of ran its course.

[Dazzle1]

Really how many "Surprise its the cybermen" episodes can be done?

The whole series kind of ran its course.

That was one of many problem, If you look at the most sucessful era: Tom Baker's he had 2 Dalek storys 1 Cyberman 2 Sontaran and 3 Master stories

The other problems Bad companions, Woke lecturing stories, bad actors like Peter Calpaldi and Gatwa

[Mr. X]

Really how many "Surprise its the cybermen" episodes can be done?

The whole series kind of ran its course.

That was one of many problem, If you look at the most sucessful era: Tom Baker's he had 2 Dalek storys 1 Cyberman 2 Sontaran and 3 Master stories

The other problems Bad companions, Woke lecturing stories, bad actors like Peter Calpaldi and Gatwa

But Baker and Pertwee etc were in those TV drek days where they just banged out crap to have something on air. It was a procedural. Was Calpaldi all that bad? I only watched U tube clips. Yes the preaching is shear cringe. Who never beat anyone over the head with Jesus messages.

[Dazzle1]

Really how many "Surprise its the cybermen" episodes can be done?

The whole series kind of ran its course.

That was one of many problem, If you look at the most sucessful era: Tom Baker's he had 2 Dalek storys 1 Cyberman 2 Sontaran and 3 Master stories

The other problems Bad companions, Woke lecturing stories, bad actors like Peter Calpaldi and Gatwa

But Baker and Pertwee etc were in those TV drek days where they just banged out crap to have something on air. It was a procedural. Was Calpaldi all that bad? I only watched U tube clips. Yes the preaching is shear cringe. Who never beat anyone over the head with Jesus messages.

Think about it Tom Baker made the show international with lousy special effects but they got high rating on PBS , large crowds at Sci Fi conventions

Of course the fact that Baker is a great actor and his 4 main costar great actresses did help

[five_red]

But Baker and Pertwee etc were in those TV drek days where they just banged out crap to have something on air. It was a procedural. Was Calpaldi all that bad? I only watched U tube clips. Yes the preaching is shear cringe. Who never beat anyone over the head with Jesus messages.

Pertwee's first season is excellent, and had a lot of rather chilling Quatermass style stories. It is only his final season that is weak. Tom Baker's early seasons were produced by Philip Hinchcliffe and drew heavily on gothic horror. There's a few clichéd stories with silver space suits and nasty blue screen effects, but they are outnumbered by darker edgier stories like Terror of the Zygons, Pyramids of Mars, The Brain of Morbius, Horror of Fang Rock, Robots of Death, and of course The Talons of Weng Chiang. What caused the downturn in Baker's later stories was the triple menace of the BBC cutting budgets (due to rampant 70s inflation rates), Mary Whitehouse complaining about anything and everything, and Baker himself becoming a bit of a diva.


R5

[tallyho]

I stopped watching the new stuff regularly halfway through the third season (Tennant's second) I loved the old format of one story over 6 episodes . With the new stuff you had some good stories but it was 40 mins of building up a threat and then 5 mins of "If I throw this switch I've saved the universe" endings. I hated the sexual element they were trying to introduce between the doc and Rose , that's not what the show was about, it was about exploring the wonders of the universe not exploring each others bodies , that's why he was always a friendly grandpa or crazy uncle sort of character. And as mentioned the Daleks and Cybermen were rarities not the go-to baddies in each series.
I personally didn't think Capaldi was that bad the few odd episodes I caught of his and let's face it everyone is better than McCoy

[Mr. X]

"If I throw this switch I've saved the universe" endings.

Yeah the Dr House formula. 40 min of mystery and "its lupus".

I remember that with Tenent and Donna on some space ship at the edge of the universe and the whole thing is resolved in the last 10 minutes.

I also got tired of the formula that people are dying but its due to some misunderstood tech or alien. Like a solder that still thinks he's fighting a war or some nano tech that was only partially healing people. Then its flick a switch and BAM, all over.

[Dazzle1]

But Baker and Pertwee etc were in those TV drek days where they just banged out crap to have something on air. It was a procedural. Was Calpaldi all that bad? I only watched U tube clips. Yes the preaching is shear cringe. Who never beat anyone over the head with Jesus messages.

Pertwee's first season is excellent, and had a lot of rather chilling Quatermass style stories. It is only his final season that is weak. Tom Baker's early seasons were produced by Philip Hinchcliffe and drew heavily on gothic horror. There's a few clichéd stories with silver space suits and nasty blue screen effects, but they are outnumbered by darker edgier stories like Terror of the Zygons, Pyramids of Mars, The Brain of Morbius, Horror of Fang Rock, Robots of Death, and of course The Talons of Weng Chiang. What caused the downturn in Baker's later stories was the triple menace of the BBC cutting budgets (due to rampant 70s inflation rates), Mary Whitehouse complaining about anything and everything, and Baker himself becoming a bit of a diva.


R5

part of the problem with the 5th season Pewtree was very close to both Katy Manning and Roger Delgado and they were gone

The stories you mention other than Talons were some of Baker's worst

The first season the Key to Time and his last season were his best

[sneakly]

I start to lose interest with the Matt Smith Doctor. I introduced my kids to it when they were in the Tennett first season, it was one of the “scare the shit out of you” episodes. I think it might have been the ‘are you my mommy?” (Or was it the weeping angels?) Episode. They were hooked and we made a thing of watching the Christmas episodes. Matt Smith just didn’t do it for them, and I was the only one into Amy’s legs…

The problem with the Daleks (and possibly the Cybermen) were that the producers didn’t own the characters and got roped into a contract where they had to use them X number of times per season. Nothing lasts forever (except the Simpsons).

[Dazzle1]

I start to lose interest with the Matt Smith Doctor. I introduced my kids to it when they were in the Tennett first season, it was one of the “scare the shit out of you” episodes. I think it might have been the ‘are you my mommy?” (Or was it the weeping angels?) Episode. They were hooked and we made a thing of watching the Christmas episodes. Matt Smith just didn’t do it for them, and I was the only one into Amy’s legs…

The problem with the Daleks (and possibly the Cybermen) were that the producers didn’t own the characters and got roped into a contract where they had to use them X number of times per season. Nothing lasts forever (except the Simpsons).

Yes Amy like Rose was great eye candy but fairly uninteresting companions

[five_red]

But Baker and Pertwee etc were in those TV drek days where they just banged out crap to have something on air. It was a procedural. Was Calpaldi all that bad? I only watched U tube clips. Yes the preaching is shear cringe. Who never beat anyone over the head with Jesus messages.

Pertwee's first season is excellent, and had a lot of rather chilling Quatermass style stories. It is only his final season that is weak. Tom Baker's early seasons were produced by Philip Hinchcliffe and drew heavily on gothic horror. There's a few clichéd stories with silver space suits and nasty blue screen effects, but they are outnumbered by darker edgier stories like Terror of the Zygons, Pyramids of Mars, The Brain of Morbius, Horror of Fang Rock, Robots of Death, and of course The Talons of Weng Chiang. What caused the downturn in Baker's later stories was the triple menace of the BBC cutting budgets (due to rampant 70s inflation rates), Mary Whitehouse complaining about anything and everything, and Baker himself becoming a bit of a diva.


R5

part of the problem with the 5th season Pewtree was very close to both Katy Manning and Roger Delgado and they were gone

The stories you mention other than Talons were some of Baker's worst

The first season the Key to Time and his last season were his best

Everyone's entitled to their own opinion, of course. Fans tend to seem to favour the darker gothic Baker stories, although not everyone, clearly. I think Season Eighteen's reputation still suffers from the culture shock it caused to fans who watched it when it was originally broadcast. Coming off of the back of Douglas Adams' previous season especially, it was quite a jarring shift in tone given the direction the show had been taking in previous seasons. The show needed a course correction to dial down some of the sillier humour, but this was almost a 180! It's no wonder that season's ratings tanked when it was broadcast.

For me Season Eighteen takes itself far too seriously, has too many overwrought plots, and tries to be too cerebral on a budget that clearly isn't up to the challenge. None of the stories match the gothic horror and maleficent vibes of some of the best Troughton, Pertwee and early Tom Bakers. Even State of Decay -- a story about vampires -- is ruined by JNT's obsession with over-lighting everything, which makes it all-the-more obvious the vampires are just actors in makeup. Most of season 18 is, for me, slow, plodding, and dialogue heavy. I think if your first experience of Season 18 is as a modern adult fan, watching stories out-of-context and binge-watching all episodes together, I can see how Season 18 does look like it was trying to do some interesting stuff. But if you watched it as-broadcast, it was evident right from that very very slow opening shot on Brighton beach, that the show you'd grown to love was gone. I think Who was trying to be more "2001 A Space Odyssey", which has certainly created some unusual and interesting stories when seen from the perspective of 45 years later, but at the time it was a very sharp and abrupt change that was at total odds with the show's image and brand. And I think some of us fans still remember that, and never quite forgave JNT.

R5

[Dazzle1]

But Baker and Pertwee etc were in those TV drek days where they just banged out crap to have something on air. It was a procedural. Was Calpaldi all that bad? I only watched U tube clips. Yes the preaching is shear cringe. Who never beat anyone over the head with Jesus messages.

Pertwee's first season is excellent, and had a lot of rather chilling Quatermass style stories. It is only his final season that is weak. Tom Baker's early seasons were produced by Philip Hinchcliffe and drew heavily on gothic horror. There's a few clichéd stories with silver space suits and nasty blue screen effects, but they are outnumbered by darker edgier stories like Terror of the Zygons, Pyramids of Mars, The Brain of Morbius, Horror of Fang Rock, Robots of Death, and of course The Talons of Weng Chiang. What caused the downturn in Baker's later stories was the triple menace of the BBC cutting budgets (due to rampant 70s inflation rates), Mary Whitehouse complaining about anything and everything, and Baker himself becoming a bit of a diva.


R5

part of the problem with the 5th season Pewtree was very close to both Katy Manning and Roger Delgado and they were gone

The stories you mention other than Talons were some of Baker's worst

The first season the Key to Time and his last season were his best

Everyone's entitled to their own opinion, of course. Fans tend to seem to favour the darker gothic Baker stories, although not everyone, clearly. I think Season Eighteen's reputation still suffers from the culture shock it caused to fans who watched it when it was originally broadcast. Coming off of the back of Douglas Adams' previous season especially, it was quite a jarring shift in tone given the direction the show had been taking in previous seasons. The show needed a course correction to dial down some of the sillier humour, but this was almost a 180! It's no wonder that season's ratings tanked when it was broadcast.

For me Season Eighteen takes itself far too seriously, has too many overwrought plots, and tries to be too cerebral on a budget that clearly isn't up to the challenge. None of the stories match the gothic horror and maleficent vibes of some of the best Troughton, Pertwee and early Tom Bakers. Even State of Decay -- a story about vampires -- is ruined by JNT's obsession with over-lighting everything, which makes it all-the-more obvious the vampires are just actors in makeup. Most of season 18 is, for me, slow, plodding, and dialogue heavy. I think if your first experience of Season 18 is as a modern adult fan, watching stories out-of-context and binge-watching all episodes together, I can see how Season 18 does look like it was trying to do some interesting stuff. But if you watched it as-broadcast, it was evident right from that very very slow opening shot on Brighton beach, that the show you'd grown to love was gone. I think Who was trying to be more "2001 A Space Odyssey", which has certainly created some unusual and interesting stories when seen from the perspective of 45 years later, but at the time it was a very sharp and abrupt change that was at total odds with the show's image and brand. And I think some of us fans still remember that, and never quite forgave JNT.

R5

I agree we won't forgive JNT for several things, but as bad and self promoting as he was, his damage to the franchise pals compared to Chibnal, Moffat and Davies 2.0

Season 18 was great because Barry Letts still could overrule JNT and Tom Baker and Lalla Ward rewrote most of the scrips

[ivandobsky]

everyone is better than McCoy

Wrong.

[Dogfish]

The format has killed it. The bottom line is that even the best episodes and stories from 'new' era would be an order of magnitude better as a six week storyline with like five massive cliffhangers.

Take the Weeping Angels story, viewed as one of the best of modern times, imagine how great that could have been with time to breathe.

[Dazzle1]

The format has killed it. The bottom line is that even the best episodes and stories from 'new' era would be an order of magnitude better as a six week storyline with like five massive cliffhangers.

Take the Weeping Angels story, viewed as one of the best of modern times, imagine how great that could have been with time to breathe.

The Format in Classic, I always felt was better but I am biased as I think everything other than special effects was better in Classic

[Dazzle1]

everyone is better than McCoy

Wrong.

I would put McCoy in the middle

He isn't in the Tom Baker, Pewtree, Troughton or Tenant level

But he is better than Colin Baker, Eccelston, Calpaldi and Gawta

[Dogfish]

I feel like the current crop are really hampered by the revolving door format as well. You get a new doctor, they get no time, no decent amount of screen/story time to settle in, and by the time they might have settled people are already talking about who is going to be the next one.

It reminds me of a Comic Relief sketch where loads of people were Doctor Who, think it had Rowan Atkinson, Richard E Grant and a few others, and it's like, cool, but no time. And of course that was a sketch, but the reality is that's the show now.

Just a revolving door and a really cynical Predator Handshake Meme between the outrage merchants and the show baiting them trying to get attention by casting people out of left field.

[Lurkndog]

...let's face it everyone is better than McCoy

McCoy was a decent actor, and he at least had Remembrances of the Daleks, which was a rare good episode in the waning years of Classic Who.

The one who really got the short end of the stick was Colin Baker, a good actor who just didn't get any good scripts. He really deserved better.