Kathleen Kennedy Leaving

[Dazzle1]

13 years too late

https://screenrant.com/star-wars-kathle ... n-brennan/

[Femina]

I mean... we say this as though Star Wars was in a good place BEFORE she took over?

It could be said that George Lucas left Star Wars 30 years too late.

Star Wars hasn't been good for a very VERY long time. At least the Force Awakens was watchable... it was the most watchable Star Wars film since the Empire Strikes Back. Yeah the sequels to TFA sucked, but what are you gonna do? Until TFA there hadn't been a watchable Star Wars film since 1983......

Andor also happened on Kennedy's watch, which is the single best Star Wars has ever been... greenlit off a character who I, at the time, would have staked my grave on was a useless no point character to base a TV series off of.

I suspect Kennedy did as well as anyone could steer a massive, bloated, broken ship like the Star Wars franchise under the rulership and demanding corporate directives of the Walt Disney Company.

[Dazzle1]

I mean... we say this as though Star Wars was in a good place BEFORE she took over?

It could be said that George Lucas left Star Wars 30 years too late.

Star Wars hasn't been good for a very VERY long time. At least the Force Awakens was watchable... it was the most watchable Star Wars film since the Empire Strikes Back. Yeah the sequels to TFA sucked, but what are you gonna do? Until TFA there hadn't been a watchable Star Wars film since 1983......

Andor also happened on Kennedy's watch, which is the single best Star Wars has ever been... greenlit off a character who I, at the time, would have staked my grave on was a useless no point character to base a TV series off of.

I suspect Kennedy did as well as anyone could steer a massive, bloated, broken ship like the Star Wars franchise under the rulership and demanding corporate directives of the Walt Disney Company.

I would say Return of the Jedi was far better than the Force Awakens.

She did a Mary sue version of Star Wars

Rey is a Mary sue

Leia is stronger in the force than Luke?

[Void]

I would *much* rather have kept George Lucas, and have had him overseeing the creative direction of the series, and all its off shoot projects, rather than Kathleen Kennedy. That trade off is so emblematic of how so many IPs have been wrecked by their creative direction falling into the hands of people who do not understand or care about the identity of the IP, or about overseeing a good, coherent story. Like, we got a lot of star wars content during the Kennedy era, and some of that content was good (Andor and Rogue One were fantastic, but I think Kennedy just got out of the way and let an actually good writer cook with them without interference) but most of what we got was diabolically bad. Like, poisoning the well bad. Most of that awfulness could have been fixed, or at least heavily mitigated if there had been someone with more affinity for the IP watching over the creative direction.

There was a kernel of potential, of something enjoyable and fresh, in Force Awakens - even if the broader story, and the use of the setting, was lazy garbage, imo - but then the writing for the sequel trilogy inflicted the Last Jedi on the world. I wanted to like Rey. I'm still willing to defend a whole lot about that character - the character concept was honestly fine - but the story they chose to tell with her was terrible. If that same character had been in a good story, with good writing, then I think Rey would have been awesome.

I also really, really tried to like Kenobi. It's heart was in the right place, and it gave us some actively good moments, but, like so much else I could reference here, it needed a competent writer in the room when they stitched it together. The sad thing is that it really wasn't a hard job, either. It was such a lay up to tell a great story, and they just botched the heck out of it.

Meanwhile, with George Lucas... I mean, I have to be honest, I never hated the prequel trilogy. I liked them! I STILL like them. I think they fumbled Anakin's arc, and the telling of the romance between Padme and Anakin was obviously handled very, very badly, and forcing CSP0 and R2D2 into the story was braindead as all hell... but I still really enjoyed those movies, and they felt coherent/welcome within the Star Wars that I already knew. Maybe I was still young enough to not be too jaded when I saw them, and that's given me a favourable bias for them ever since, but even today I would argue those films told a tighter story than new star wars, and they were told with affection and care for the setting that added to it rather than polluted it. Certainly compared to what came after when Disney moved in, I think the sins of those movies pale into insignificance by comparison.

[Dazzle1]

I would *much* rather have kept George Lucas, and have had him overseeing the creative direction of the series, and all its off shoot projects, rather than Kathleen Kennedy. That trade off is so emblematic of how so many IPs have been wrecked by their creative direction falling into the hands of people who do not understand or care about the identity of the IP, or about overseeing a good, coherent story. Like, we got a lot of star wars content during the Kennedy era, and some of that content was good (Andor and Rogue One were fantastic, but I think Kennedy just got out of the way and let an actually good writer cook with them without interference) but most of what we got was diabolically bad. Like, poisoning the well bad. Most of that awfulness could have been fixed, or at least heavily mitigated if there had been someone with more affinity for the IP watching over the creative direction.

There was a kernel of potential, of something enjoyable and fresh, in Force Awakens - even if the broader story, and the use of the setting, was lazy garbage, imo - but then the writing for the sequel trilogy inflicted the Last Jedi on the world. I wanted to like Rey. I'm still willing to defend a whole lot about that character - the character concept was honestly fine - but the story they chose to tell with her was terrible. If that same character had been in a good story, with good writing, then I think Rey would have been awesome.

I also really, really tried to like Kenobi. It's heart was in the right place, and it gave us some actively good moments, but, like so much else I could reference here, it needed a competent writer in the room when they stitched it together. The sad thing is that it really wasn't a hard job, either. It was such a lay up to tell a great story, and they just botched the heck out of it.

Meanwhile, with George Lucas... I mean, I have to be honest, I never hated the prequel trilogy. I liked them! I STILL like them. I think they fumbled Anakin's arc, and the telling of the romance between Padme and Anakin was obviously handled very, very badly, and forcing CSP0 and R2D2 into the story was braindead as all hell... but I still really enjoyed those movies, and they felt coherent/welcome within the Star Wars that I already knew. Maybe I was still young enough to not be too jaded when I saw them, and that's given me a favourable bias for them ever since, but even today I would argue those films told a tighter story than new star wars, and they were told with affection and care for the setting that added to it rather than polluted it. Certainly compared to what came after when Disney moved in, I think the sins of those movies pale into insignificance by comparison.

What i would have preferred is that Disney bought the right to Tim Zahn's Heir to the Empire Trilogy.

recast Luke, Han and Leia

[Femina]

I would say Return of the Jedi was far better than the Force Awakens.

Sorry to beat a dead horse of a topic... but I literally couldn't even get the website here to load for like... months it feels like, so this is my first time even seeing this response in my feed. Anyway, on to buisiness.

I doubt there are many who would stake their reputation on this from a production standpoint (Though it's a perfectly fine opinion and preference to have). RotJ is sort of indicative of everything wrong that George would press on with in the prequal trilogy, Teddy Bears defeating soldiers and what not... there's SOMETHING of substance in RotJ somewhere deep in its bones, just like there's something deep in the bones of The Phantom Menace and Revenge of the Sith (Attack of the Clones is pure garbage all the way down)... but there's too much Lucas 'merch fluff' sautéed in the recipe. Particularly following Empire, RotJ is a very silly and unserious film until it suddenly curveballs into heavy stuff for about ten minutes at the end. TFA is a solid time, and is shares a spot with Empire as the only two Star Wars films with acceptably written dialogue (even if the plot itself is FAR too safe) it was watchable, which NONE of the prequals are. TFA is a watchable film too when taken at base value measured against other 'real' movies... but only if you pretend like it's not supposed to be a sequel or a prequel to anything, which it was, so it was effectively a catastrophic mess that broke any hope the trilogy had of a cohesive narrative.

She did a Mary sue version of Star Wars

Rey is a Mary sue

Anti-woke nonsense. Rey is fine. She's not genre defining or anything, she's just fine... exactly like Luke was just fine before her. Luke is a 'Gary Stu' by the same metric, he's just a man so people are cool with it. Mary Sue as a term is criminally misused and unequally lobbied criticism in the entertainment medium. I'd be fine with its usage as is if anybody EVER criticized a stock male character as a Gary Stu, they don't, so they don't get to use Mary Sue as a criticism. Women shouldn't have to be MORE interestingly written than men in equal 'roles' to be acceptable as a protagonist, and that's what everybody seems to really be demanding when they cry 'Mary Sue'.

Leia is stronger in the force than Luke?

Nowhere in the sequel trilogy is this stated to be the case, though it FACTORS logically that she'd be AS strong as Luke in the force as they are twin children of the most powerful force adept ever.

What i would have preferred is that Disney bought the right to Tim Zahn's Heir to the Empire Trilogy.

recast Luke, Han and Leia

A story wherein Leah is utilizing the force and a lightsaber and shown to be Luke's equal in force potential is a strange topic to bring up after your last post but *shrugs* I'm not gonna argue to hard with you on this. You're right. Heir to the Empire is THE best Star Wars material created post OT and is 100% what they SHOULD have adapted... but it was never realistic to expect they would. No other franchise has EVER directly adapted subsidiary secondary market material into full budgeted and produced film, no reason to presume Star Wars would have either.

[Femina]

I would *much* rather have kept George Lucas, and have had him overseeing the creative direction of the series, and all its off shoot projects, rather than Kathleen Kennedy. That trade off is so emblematic of how so many IPs have been wrecked by their creative direction falling into the hands of people who do not understand or care about the identity of the IP, or about overseeing a good, coherent story. Like, we got a lot of star wars content during the Kennedy era, and some of that content was good (Andor and Rogue One were fantastic, but I think Kennedy just got out of the way and let an actually good writer cook with them without interference) but most of what we got was diabolically bad. Like, poisoning the well bad. Most of that awfulness could have been fixed, or at least heavily mitigated if there had been someone with more affinity for the IP watching over the creative direction.

There was a kernel of potential, of something enjoyable and fresh, in Force Awakens - even if the broader story, and the use of the setting, was lazy garbage, imo - but then the writing for the sequel trilogy inflicted the Last Jedi on the world. I wanted to like Rey. I'm still willing to defend a whole lot about that character - the character concept was honestly fine - but the story they chose to tell with her was terrible. If that same character had been in a good story, with good writing, then I think Rey would have been awesome.

I also really, really tried to like Kenobi. It's heart was in the right place, and it gave us some actively good moments, but, like so much else I could reference here, it needed a competent writer in the room when they stitched it together. The sad thing is that it really wasn't a hard job, either. It was such a lay up to tell a great story, and they just botched the heck out of it.

Meanwhile, with George Lucas... I mean, I have to be honest, I never hated the prequel trilogy. I liked them! I STILL like them. I think they fumbled Anakin's arc, and the telling of the romance between Padme and Anakin was obviously handled very, very badly, and forcing CSP0 and R2D2 into the story was braindead as all hell... but I still really enjoyed those movies, and they felt coherent/welcome within the Star Wars that I already knew. Maybe I was still young enough to not be too jaded when I saw them, and that's given me a favourable bias for them ever since, but even today I would argue those films told a tighter story than new star wars, and they were told with affection and care for the setting that added to it rather than polluted it. Certainly compared to what came after when Disney moved in, I think the sins of those movies pale into insignificance by comparison.

This is all well and good... but it's just like... preferences right? I'm sure you understand that objectively speaking, the Prequels are POORLY executed films... even if one takes guilty pleasure in watching them. THATS fine, I watch the prequals still too now and again, but I know they are bad and don't pretend like they are better than I thought just cause two of the sequel films are garbage too. (Not that YOU have anywhere stated any such thing) My introduction to Star Wars was mainly the Prequels, as a young girl the IMAGINATION of them was striking and so they hold a space of nostalgia... but as a grown up I recognize there's nothing much ELSE there besides the Imagination. Star Wars as a whole, is a brand that has carried it's popularity ENTIRELY on striking originality and imagination and ordinarily very little else. That is somewhat to the series credit that the sheer awe of its universe and visuals can sustain it... but as we've seen with Andor, we CAN have both the imagination AND gripping drama.

My major point up above is that Celebrating the exit of Kennedy as '13 years too late' or something is a solid shrug unless her successor does something increadible. Kennedy produced exactly as much 'good' Star Wars as Lucas did... maybe more by 'hour' if you factor Andor being a full series... but by a metric of percentile, in ALL of Lucas's time running Star Wars 1/6th of the films are good... and it's the one he didn't write and direct.

Was Kennedy's run a striking success? No.... but Kennedy only ran ramshod for 13 years while Lucas ran it into the ground a lot longer...

I'll ackgnowledge that under Lucas the Expanded Universe did a WHOLE LOT more of value than it has under Disney... but I have very little understanding or awareness how much of that is the fault or responsibility of either Lucas or Kennedy much at all and probably has a lot more to do with the Corporate shenanigans of it all. DISNEY itself is likely a lot more responsible for the dissolving of the Expanded Universe in favor of a new worse one over anything Kennedy did, nor do I expect Lucas had a lot to do with oversight and quality of the original EU in order to deserve praise for it... but both of those things are vague assumptions I would need to do a lot more research on before I factored into any real opinion or argument on so... the best I can do there is just say 'Lucas's EU was much better'

[bushwackerbob]

Feel free to take this post with a grain of salt, I am not a Star Wars fan, I don't really have a dog in the fight, my interest here is just as someone who has always been fascinated by how the sausage is made in films and television, but looking at it from afar, it seems that Kathleen Kennedy's job shepherding Star Wars universe projects seems like a difficult job, many masters to answer to, seems near impossible to make everybody happy.

[sugarcoater]

I can't say how much blame Kathleen Kennedy deserves, but she is certainly worthy of a lot based on what I've read and seen. Going with the whole "Force is Female" nonsense was an excellent reflection of her leadership: make a point to alienate fans in order to push Star Wars on women instead of focusing on--along with the rest of the leadership at the time--good storytelling. Despite years and years of preparation time and access to so many sources for storylines, they went with almost an identical rehash of the original Star Wars as their first entry to the most recent trilogy. Completely trite and entirely boring plot with hardly a single likable character.
And fans (not referring to the .0001% of online trolls) had no issue with Rey being Luke 2.0 other than a lack of allowing her to be her own character. She was the most likable of all the characters and had potential. Yet instead of showing her going through a growth and an actual hero's journey, she masters the force in mere days and is able to fend off a villain who is supposed to be fearsome with years of training, which is completely absurd. Then they decide to kill off Han in the first episode rather than find a better, later, and more worthy death. If the goal is to parallel the original series, have his death at the end of the second movie. They even had Han's death in a similar setting for one of the more dramatic events in the first trilogy--Luke discovering Vader is his father and losing his hand. Once again, lack of originality.
Kennedy should have simply had Rey as the new lead and the whole "Force is Female" movement could have happened in a natural way instead of being promoted as a "we're tired of men" movement that was so popular at the time. The issue now is that Star Wars is now tainted by so much lousy material and too little quality storytelling over the past 40 years.

I agree with the previous comments about the prequels being lousy. The first one was just an abomination. With all that time off after Return of the Jedi...and that's the crap they came up with?! And the next two seemed to be intent on showing off special effects at the expense of a good story and quality drama. So much potential wasted. You have the original of one of the greatest villains of the 20th century, and that's what they did with it?! Not blaming Kennedy for that; I'm blaming Lucas for allowing such a terrible production to destroy such a great character.

The problem now is where does the storyline go? They have destroyed the most interesting of characters and have not created many new interesting characters.

[Femina]

And fans (not referring to the .0001% of online trolls) had no issue with Rey being Luke 2.0 other than a lack of allowing her to be her own character. She was the most likable of all the characters and had potential. Yet instead of showing her going through a growth and an actual hero's journey, she masters the force in mere days and is able to fend off a villain who is supposed to be fearsome with years of training, which is completely absurd. Then they decide to kill off Han in the first episode rather than find a better, later, and more worthy death. If the goal is to parallel the original series, have his death at the end of the second movie. They even had Han's death in a similar setting for one of the more dramatic events in the first trilogy--Luke discovering Vader is his father and losing his hand. Once again, lack of originality.
Kennedy should have simply had Rey as the new lead and the whole "Force is Female" movement could have happened in a natural way instead of being promoted as a "we're tired of men" movement that was so popular at the time. The issue now is that Star Wars is now tainted by so much lousy material and too little quality storytelling over the past 40 years.

Han's death was Ford's request if memory serves. He actively didn't want to be in more Star Wars movies. That's not on Kennedy just cause the film production did what the Actor wanted to do? I know it's a hard pill for fans to swallow... but Han Solo gives as many shits about Star Wars as Captain Jean Luc Picard. Yell at Harrison Ford for that if you must... there's only so much the Studio can be blamed for when an Actor they are courting actively wants out.

I also don't know where the idea that Ben was a badass comes from... the entire film basically shows him off to be a little crybaby jackass who regularly loses his shit and becomes recklessly aggressive. Then in their swordfight, Rey uses her lightsaber the way a staff fighter would naturally do so which is an AMAZING touch of 'show don't tell' that literally nobody got indicating that yes, most viewers require for everything to be spelled out for them in tropey dialogue. Rey isn't someone who just picked up a weapon yesterday fighting a master swordsmen... she's an experienced staff fighter fighting a reckless emotional tool whose having a mid life crisis... and it seems clear to me that's what the scene is meant to portray.

[sugarcoater]

And fans (not referring to the .0001% of online trolls) had no issue with Rey being Luke 2.0 other than a lack of allowing her to be her own character. She was the most likable of all the characters and had potential. Yet instead of showing her going through a growth and an actual hero's journey, she masters the force in mere days and is able to fend off a villain who is supposed to be fearsome with years of training, which is completely absurd. Then they decide to kill off Han in the first episode rather than find a better, later, and more worthy death. If the goal is to parallel the original series, have his death at the end of the second movie. They even had Han's death in a similar setting for one of the more dramatic events in the first trilogy--Luke discovering Vader is his father and losing his hand. Once again, lack of originality.
Kennedy should have simply had Rey as the new lead and the whole "Force is Female" movement could have happened in a natural way instead of being promoted as a "we're tired of men" movement that was so popular at the time. The issue now is that Star Wars is now tainted by so much lousy material and too little quality storytelling over the past 40 years.

Han's death was Ford's request if memory serves. He actively didn't want to be in more Star Wars movies. That's not on Kennedy just cause the film production did what the Actor wanted to do? I know it's a hard pill for fans to swallow... but Han Solo gives as many shits about Star Wars as Captain Jean Luc Picard. Yell at Harrison Ford for that if you must... there's only so much the Studio can be blamed for when an Actor they are courting actively wants out.

I also don't know where the idea that Ben was a badass comes from... the entire film basically shows him off to be a little crybaby jackass who regularly loses his shit and becomes recklessly aggressive. Then in their swordfight, Rey uses her lightsaber the way a staff fighter would naturally do so which is an AMAZING touch of 'show don't tell' that literally nobody got indicating that yes, most viewers require for everything to be spelled out for them in tropey dialogue. Rey isn't someone who just picked up a weapon yesterday fighting a master swordsmen... she's an experienced staff fighter fighting a reckless emotional tool whose having a mid life crisis... and it seems clear to me that's what the scene is meant to portray.

I can see your suggestion as to the contrast between Vader Jr. and Rey being what it is, but the storytelling has to be better in setting it up. Otherwise, it would be like showing Rocky without any of the backstory and training apart from a brief show of Rocky spending one day at his job (and no training montage). Characterization depends on showing key aspects of the character’s persona, and emphasizing their growth in a manner that shows them to be worthy of the audience’s support. It’s more important than the final conflict, in many respects. If I can root for them or even care about them, why does it matter what the final outcome is. No need for “tropey dialogue”, but a definite need of more seen in the character’s growth arc. I wanted to care for the Star Wars series—I wanted to like it as I spent money to see it—but found myself feeling entirely ambivalent towards every single character.

[Dazzle1]

Yes Harrison Ford requested his character to be killed off

But I disagree most fans hated Rey, who is a Mary Sue. She picks up the force like it is nothing

[Danorian]

With how Finn was handling the lightsaber, I had high hopes he was a latent force user. Might help explain how he broke his stormtrooper programming?

[Femina]

With how Finn was handling the lightsaber, I had high hopes he was a latent force user. Might help explain how he broke his stormtrooper programming?

I believe this is what the film was suggesting... just... you know... then The Force Awakens chose to refuse to be a sequel or a prequel.

[Dazzle1]

With how Finn was handling the lightsaber, I had high hopes he was a latent force user. Might help explain how he broke his stormtrooper programming?

I believe this is what the film was suggesting... just... you know... then The Force Awakens chose to refuse to be a sequel or a prequel.

Force awakens took so many plots from New Hope

Masked Force user
Old Mentor being killed by said Force users
planet destroying weapon

[Femina]

Daaah... I did mistype up there. I meant 'The Last Jedi' chose to refuse to be a sequel or a prequel. That's the films true sin. (Bombs dropping in space is a lunatics nitpick, not a criticism) It's a sequel and refuses to use anything set up by the film in front of it, and it's a prequel that chose to RAZE the forest of plot for its sequel to pay off. Make no mistake, Rise of Skywalker is the worst Star Wars film of all time....... but it's entire the Last Jedi's fault. NO climactic entry of a trilogy can survive it's predecessor refusing to cooperate. What they SHOULD have done was just call it there at the end of Last Jedi as a 'duology' and just make a new standalone film or start a new series or something... TLJ refused to play ball and nuked any hope of the sequel films being a coherent trilogy.

HOW MUCH of this is Kennedy's fault? Is VERY tricky to say. UNLIKE the prequals where Lucas was there directly in charge not just of the 'franchise' as a whole but also as director and writer etc... the Prequels are ENTIRELY his baby... and thus entirely his responsibility. Last I checked Kennedy isn't a writer, she never directed a film... she's the money lady who said 'you can make a film/ you can make a film' etc. The buck does start at her desk so in the grand sense of 'shit rolls downhill' she is ultimately to 'blame' but studios have learned harsh lessons about invading the artistry of film, and it typically works out BETTER when you don't get in your directors way and allow them to fulfill 'a vision' ANY vision at all that isn't just corporate slop. Kennedy seems to have been a very 'hands off' sort of money lady who allowed her directors to basically make whatever film they wanted to make, for better or worse. This all results in TLJ being 'the best' Star Wars movie of the trilogy taken on its own... a high effort, selfish, film made by a man with too high an opinion of himself solely making the movie he wanted to make and fuck everybody else! Kennedy's mistake was that a TRILOGY requires someone at the helm ensuring a grand vision or at the VERY LEAST enforcing that each film build off the last before doing just 'whatever' it wants to.

Force awakens took so many plots from New Hope

Masked Force user
Old Mentor being killed by said Force users
planet destroying weapon

Meaning no disrespect, I don't care about this. The talking point bores me as greatly as nitpicks about bombs dropping in space did, or nitpicks about Leah using the force to survive in space. This is like saying that Vanilla Coke tastes too much like Coke. To me this is not a working criticism and entirely a personal nitpick. You personally don't like when stories tell a similar story to the one you remember... that's fine, but its not a criticism, it says nothing about how well a movie was made or presented. It has nothing to do with the films quality etc.

Star Wars isn't (or at least WASN'T at the time of TFA) a franchise with 'unlimited potential.' People like SPECIFIC things about Star Wars, and so there were specific 'hits' they wanted to adhere to in resurrecting a 20 year dormant franchise. Star Wars has loads of planet destroying weapons in its wheelhouse at this point and it always basically amounts to the same thing, it's just the villain wielding and threatening 'nukes' in a war. Old Mentor being killed isn't a trope unique to Star Wars, it's a tried and tested plot point for a heroes journey. I only ever care about the EXECUTION of plot points. I am NEVER moved to apathy on a project JUST because a plot point exists that is similar to another. Humanity has been telling stories for thousands of years, we're out of original ideas that strongly resonate with us and aren't just novel concepts that are 'intriguing' but ultimately don't move or affect us. We have the ideas we have, and all that matters is how we execute them... in TFA case, it executed these plot points... 'acceptably'. I was less impressed by the film on my first viewing and became more appreciative of the film over time as the first Star Wars film with dialogue that wasn't just shit, and open to the POTENTIAL of the groundwork it expertly laid for its sequel (A sequel that then squandered all of that to be a standalone film right in the center of a trilogy)