I hate J J Abrams!!

[Dazzle1]

I never thought their would be someone in Science Fiction I would despise more than John Nathan Turner, Russell Davies or Stephen Moffat.

But after seeing the latest trailer for Star Wars, Abrams has ruined the two greatest U.S creations in the medium, he now tops the list

May he be swallowed up by a Black Star

[tallyho]

Deep breaths Dazzle, deep breaths

[Femina]

Well... for starters Abrams has nothing to do with the new Star Wars movie, he did ep 1 and he's been hired to come back for ep 3... but not this one.

Second... how is this trailer bad? I mean if Lucas somehow failed to destroy Star Wars with the prequels, how could these films which are pretty close to objectively better than the prequels EVEN if you think they are bad? Star Wars has pretty much proved to have an unbreakable foundation at this point, I'm sure it'll be fine.

[Dazzle1]

Well... for starters Abrams has nothing to do with the new Star Wars movie, he did ep 1 and he's been hired to come back for ep 3... but not this one.

Second... how is this trailer bad? I mean if Lucas somehow failed to destroy Star Wars with the prequels, how could these films which are pretty close to objectively better than the prequels EVEN if you think they are bad? Star Wars has pretty much proved to have an unbreakable foundation at this point, I'm sure it'll be fine.

Have you seen how they have potrayed Luke Skywalker.

As far as the First one that laid the groundwork. When you look it objectivly they just change Han Solo dying instead of Obi and instead of having a death star they have a different world killer

[Femina]

Well... for starters Abrams has nothing to do with the new Star Wars movie, he did ep 1 and he's been hired to come back for ep 3... but not this one.

Second... how is this trailer bad? I mean if Lucas somehow failed to destroy Star Wars with the prequels, how could these films which are pretty close to objectively better than the prequels EVEN if you think they are bad? Star Wars has pretty much proved to have an unbreakable foundation at this point, I'm sure it'll be fine.

Have you seen how they have potrayed Luke Skywalker.

As far as the First one that laid the groundwork. When you look it objectivly they just change Han Solo dying instead of Obi and instead of having a death star they have a different world killer

I get why some people dislike episode 7 via the whole 'to similar' thing. I'm not arguing against it. But just cause something is similar to another thing doesn't mean it can't still be better than other things. Episode 7 was better acted and better filmed and mostly better scripted than pretty much anything in the prequels, so it's better. I'm not saying anyone has to believe its a fantastic flick or anything... but I hold pretty prominently that if Star Wars was gonna be 'ruined' by anything, it had already been done LONG before Abrams came anywhere near it.

As for how Luke is portrayed... well all we've seen are bits and pieces in a trailer, (better acted than good old Luke Skywalker has ever been portrayed before even kudos to Hamil's lifetime of practice) but I'm intrigued. I've got nothing against heroic characters from previous films growing a tad jaded in the face of tragedy or failure. It gives him something interesting to do in this film besides just being a Yoda clone?

[MightyHypnotic]

The trailer in question:

[Imagineer]

I think this new trailer is deliberately misleading -- they show you something and the trailer implies one context, but it's okay, it's not technically a spoiler because the context in the movie is different and the scenes and lines actually mean something different and surprising.

[Dazzle1]

Feminia:

The acting is far worse in episode 7.

As far as Luke , he went from enthusiatic young man to wise warrior in theoriginal trilogy

As far as ST this was a thinking person's Science fiction show. Now it is just an action series. And the actors have no talent.

[Abductorenmadrid]

Trailers can be misleading on many levels, so take what you saw with a pinch of salt. I recall the publicity for Ep VII giving the impression that Finn was going to be the lightsaber wielding hero. His appearance in the trailers and on the movie poster show him using it and yet it was Rey who ended up being the force user, so who knows for sure how this will play out. At any rate, I certainly put Ep VII above the prequels but The Empire Strikes Back looks unlikely to be dethroned as the best of the series for me.

[Femina]

Feminia:

The acting is far worse in episode 7.

We'll have to agree to disagree on that. The acting in both the original trilogy and the prequel trilogy is atrocious. The original trilogy gets a semi-pass because acting in the early days to about midway through the 80's was NEVER that good or nuanced, and was all about OVER acting to make it a grand show versus today's acting techniques which are about attempting to capture realism. Add to this the dialogue was always terribly put together, the REASON Harrison Ford hated his role as Han Solo so much was partially due to how much he hated the scripted dialogue (once threatening to tie George Lucas himself to a chair so that he could be forced to read his own dialogue as punishment. Joke? Sure, but telling about his opinion of the work as a whole). The prequels are just horrible, ESPECIALLY by today's standards. I've seen Ewan Mcgregor break down to tears and provide heart wrenching performances and to this day his 'I can't watch anymore' in the scene where he's watching what is essentially his adopted son murder children is bafflingly bland and lifeless, it's as though Lucas never informed his actors when a final take would be and they're caught in a state of trying to decipher if their just doing a line reading or the actual thing.

As far as Luke , he went from enthusiatic young man to wise warrior in theoriginal trilogy

Which is great for his trilogy yes, but it has the potential of leaving him as essentially just playing 'Yoda' all over again in this trilogy. I'm not saying it would have been BAD if this happened, I'm just saying that he'll probably be more interesting with an actual character arc in this trilogy instead of just being Rey's variant on Yoda... let's not forget that most people's biggest problem with Ep 7 is how similar it is to episode 4. Some people let it slide being as they were just relieved not to have another prequel on their hands. We're probably not going to be anywhere near as forgiving if ep 8 is just episode 5 in sheep's clothing.

As far as ST this was a thinking person's Science fiction show. Now it is just an action series. And the actors have no talent.

I don't have anything to say about Star Trek in general over this, I agree Abrams doesn't really 'get' Star Trek.

[tallyho]

Feminia:

The acting is far worse in episode 7.

We'll have to agree to disagree on that. The acting in both the original trilogy and the prequel trilogy is atrocious. .

WHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATTTTTTTT????!!!!!!!


How can you say that with Cushing and Guiness in the mix?

CUSHING EXUDES MENACE AND UNSPOKEN VILLAINY FROM EVERY PORE! A MASTERFUL PERFORMANCE IN UNDERSTATEMENT - just the twitch of his head as he hears the change in tone as the Deathstar takes the hit is legendary

GUINESS is the epitomy of the quiet mentor years before Mr Miagi copied his style

Sure the yank contingent were mediocre but hey thats 'cos they think RADA is a type of car

Epsiode 7 is just dreadful. Your 'villain' is a petulant child who trashes his own room in a temper tantrum - geez, that was terrifying, and the general of the evil army is some youthful ginge with all the menace and fascist passion of a potato. His rallying speech to the troops needed someone with gravitas who exuded menace and he just looked like he'd struggle to chat up women. Even the hologram Lord Snoak or Snoke or whatever just looked like some guy sitting on a toilet. Its a hologram , it doesnt need to be 90 ft high in a purpose built room.

The whole film is just dire regardless of the copied plot. Oh look they've built a thing with one weakness. Again. That does pretty much the same thing as the last one except from further away and in defiance of the laws of physics. The rebel attack is aimed at what exactly? Flying around aimlessly and firing. The reason Rogue one works is you get a real feel for the battle and the give and take of what each side were trying to do . Episode 7 is shit on celluloid.

As you may have guessed. I am not a fan.

[tallyho]

The prequels were wank though we can agree there

[Dazzle1]

I agree the prequels were terrible, I almost did not go to Revenge of the Sith

[Imagineer]

The Star Trek films were much more action series than thinking person's science fiction long before Chris Pine or even Patrick Stewart sat in the chair.

I'm really hopeful that Luke's concern shown in this trailer comes from him having his own character arc. Let him be out there on that rock because he's afraid of his own power as much as anyone else's, not because he's just there to provide the Worf Effect.

To reset the barometer... imagine Episode IX directed by Michael Bay.

[Dazzle1]

The Star Trek films were much more action series than thinking person's science fiction long before Chris Pine or even Patrick Stewart sat in the chair.

I'm really hopeful that Luke's concern shown in this trailer comes from him having his own character arc. Let him be out there on that rock because he's afraid of his own power as much as anyone else's, not because he's just there to provide the Worf Effect.

To reset the barometer... imagine Episode IX directed by Michael Bay.

That is true

[Femina]

Feminia:

The acting is far worse in episode 7.

We'll have to agree to disagree on that. The acting in both the original trilogy and the prequel trilogy is atrocious. .

WHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATTTTTTTT????!!!!!!!


How can you say that with Cushing and Guiness in the mix?

CUSHING EXUDES MENACE AND UNSPOKEN VILLAINY FROM EVERY PORE! A MASTERFUL PERFORMANCE IN UNDERSTATEMENT - just the twitch of his head as he hears the change in tone as the Deathstar takes the hit is legendary

GUINESS is the epitomy of the quiet mentor years before Mr Miagi copied his style

Sure the yank contingent were mediocre but hey thats 'cos they think RADA is a type of car

Epsiode 7 is just dreadful. Your 'villain' is a petulant child who trashes his own room in a temper tantrum - geez, that was terrifying, and the general of the evil army is some youthful ginge with all the menace and fascist passion of a potato. His rallying speech to the troops needed someone with gravitas who exuded menace and he just looked like he'd struggle to chat up women. Even the hologram Lord Snoak or Snoke or whatever just looked like some guy sitting on a toilet. Its a hologram , it doesnt need to be 90 ft high in a purpose built room.

The whole film is just dire regardless of the copied plot. Oh look they've built a thing with one weakness. Again. That does pretty much the same thing as the last one except from further away and in defiance of the laws of physics. The rebel attack is aimed at what exactly? Flying around aimlessly and firing. The reason Rogue one works is you get a real feel for the battle and the give and take of what each side were trying to do . Episode 7 is shit on celluloid.

As you may have guessed. I am not a fan.

Well yeah, but Cushing and Guiness are dead before the start of Episode 5... and their performances are very much AGAINST their direction, Guiness was in Ford's camp of despising the dialogue. Your leads are all students of the usual overacting school of acting of earlier times. You've got wonderful examples just from Luke alone throughout the whole series from 'What a piece of junk!' to 'I'll never join you!' and all are indicative of the same sort of 'Whoopie!!!!!!' sort of thing that would be written for Anakin in Episode 1. We were all just living in an age where hamfisted performances and overacting were no longer the norm.

Yeah the villain in Ep 7 wasn't the best, no argument there (his helmet should never have come off for one thing) but at least he SELLS his petulance. The ACTING wasn't the problem there. Agree with the lame speech... which was even paced weirdly because up to that point I'd not realized they were on a new death star, or what precicely it was that incited the 'demonstration' since it sort of is squeezed right after the whole canteena bit. I thought Snoke was actually pretty cool though... right up until I realized he was a hologram and not 20 feet tall... missed opportunity that!

Lastly.... I know I'm sort of in the minority in this as well, but Rogue One was not a well structured movie... like at all, but I'll agree it's final action sequence was much better put together than Episode 7's... I just cared so little about the characters involved by that point I guess I still enjoy Ep 7's finale much more. Hard to be all that invested with Jyn's sacrifice when I really don't even know what any of her core values and beliefs are... the only character who I was sad to see die was the robot... and that's not a good thing.

[tallyho]

I didnt much like the first half of Rogue, but the long battle scene that actually had objectives and that awesome Vader corridor bit retrieved it for me. There were still silly bits - like the blind guy couldn't use the force to flip a switch but hey ho. All the SW characters are pretty flat tho except Han - and his killing of Greedo in New Hope instantly makes you wanna learn more about him but the fact they changed it so Greedo fires first was a real betrayal of the character in the extended versions. Empire is still the best - bad guys win, ya gotta love it!

[Femina]

I didnt much like the first half of Rogue, but the long battle scene that actually had objectives and that awesome Vader corridor bit retrieved it for me. There were still silly bits - like the blind guy couldn't use the force to flip a switch but hey ho. All the SW characters are pretty flat tho except Han - and his killing of Greedo in New Hope instantly makes you wanna learn more about him but the fact they changed it so Greedo fires first was a real betrayal of the character in the extended versions. Empire is still the best - bad guys win, ya gotta love it!

Spoiler alerts for Rogue One... I guess?

Everybody loves that Vader corridor scene but me lol xD. Its 'cool' yes... but its use in the film is... weirdly placed. It steals the climax from the characters the movie is supposed to be about and hands it to what amounts to a side character (Vader is a very small character in this movie. YES he's an established presence... but he has exactly one scene before this moment in THIS movie) which probably shouldn't surprise me considering how little the film even tries to make you care about the characters... but even ignoring that it is still a glaring flaw in the narrative flow. This scene really should have come earlier, BEFORE the characters the movie is supposed to be about are all dead and finished with their 'noble sacrifices'.

I don't remember who it was who said it, but I heard a good analogy of the Vader Scene put to me like this: It'd be like if in the movie Glory (A 'true story' Civil War epic about a regiment of black soldiers) after they made their heroic and doomed charge of Fort Wagner and most were dead, a super buff and unstoppable confederate soldier suddenly stepped out and went on a complete murder rampage cleaning up the last of the regiment while epic and foreboding music played in the background that nevertheless glorifies the villains carnage.

I mean, I get it. It's VADER!!!!! And Rogue One is the movie that convinced me that Disney GETS Vader.... but no matter how Vader Vader managed to be in Rogue One... he still didn't really BELONG there from a thematic standpoint. The ought to just announce a Darth Vader movie and get on with instead of slicing him into places he doesn't belong, or else do a better job of slicing him in so that it isn't distracting or feel out of place.

[tallyho]

Anyone who hasn't seen the star wars films and reads a thread bemoaning the treatment of them in the latest offerings, deserves all they get so, no need for the spoiler button.

I don't think thats a valid analogy at all re Glory. Don't forget this was a scene setter for New Hope and as such its sole purpose was to introduce the raison d'etre for that film and to introduce those characters - like Vader, Tarkin and Leia. Prior to the corridor scene all Vader had ever done was choke senior members of his own command staff (it was Anakin who had sliced and diced the Jedi kids). It was important to finally see him as bad ass and I thought it was superbly paced and shot. The breathing and then the sabre in the darkness was great cinema.
The Rogue one plot was as lame as all the other SW plots. Lets face it if the guy engineering the project couldn't sabotage it in its construction its a bit weak. There's bound to have been system testing where he just overloads a powercoil and -kablooey.

There's no point in a Vader film as we already saw how his character was shaped in the bloody awful prequels
'I'm having these bad dreams...'
' Oh just destroy everything you believe in and it'll be fine...'
'Oh, ok.'
Now Vader is just Vader. That corridor scene worked because thats precisely all we had of him in the film. I loved it. Do I want to see a movie of him cutting up Rebel scum? No, ta.

[Femina]

A movie that's entire purpose is to 'set up' another is a poor basis for a movie. That was my worry with Rogue One from the start, but the trailers were so good I'd gotten some hope for it by the time it came out. Setting up another film doesn't excuse a film from being bad (I know that's not what you're saying either I'm just setting up my point) and Rogue One's biggest problem is that it's a set up for another film rather than a film itself... but STILL wants to be its own thing and it does so poorly.

It WANTS us to care about the characters but gives us no reason to. Right when we should be mostly concentrating on the great heroic sacrifice they rebels have accomplished and we're treated to that shot of the deathstar evaporating our hero and heroine into dust (which was probably the right point from a narrative and structural position to slam us with the ending credits) only then, when the characters the entire film is oriented around are ALL dead, do we see Vader's action scene... and a loose but acceptable explanation for why Vader choking that dude at the start of Episode 4 is TOTALLY warranted (Seriously, he KNOWs you aren't a diplomatic vessal, he frigging chased the death star plans onto the ship!)

So you see, the scene itself isn't my problem with it. It IS a decent action scene and paced well (Though how much better and more impactful a scene would it have been if it was Jyn Erso and her rag tag group of chums sacrificing themselves to make inches down the corridor away from Vader instead of a bunch of faceless mooks?) My problem is more with the timestamp of that scene within the film. It should have come up earlier so as not to take the climax from the characters the movie is supposed to be about OR (my secret dream ending) they should have all survived the fighting on the ground... and been murdered by Vader in place of the mooks at the end to REALLY spice up the parable.

[tallyho]

I cant help feel youve missed the point. We WERENT supposed to care about the characters particularly,(except maybe the female lead)- there are too many and none of them have enough screentime to develop. We were supposed to care about the CAUSE they were dying for. You look at old war films - countless brave but anonymous Resistance fighters lay down their lives but manage to blow up the bridge and stop the Nazis , we dont know them at all , we dont particularly care about them at all, but in death they have a victory as they stopped the evil from doing whatever it was they were trying to do. We are supposed to care about the CAUSE they died for.
This is of that ilk.

[Femina]

I cant help feel youve missed the point. We WERENT supposed to care about the characters particularly,(except maybe the female lead)- there are too many and none of them have enough screentime to develop. We were supposed to care about the CAUSE they were dying for. You look at old war films - countless brave but anonymous Resistance fighters lay down their lives but manage to blow up the bridge and stop the Nazis , we dont know them at all , we dont particularly care about them at all, but in death they have a victory as they stopped the evil from doing whatever it was they were trying to do. We are supposed to care about the CAUSE they died for.
This is of that ilk.

None of that changes that the Vader scene is poorly positioned. The cause of the rebels is a cause we preemptively KNOW succeeds from the very beginning of the film due to it's position in the well established timeline. Because of this there isn't any tension around if the characters cause will or will not succeed, the only tension to be derived from it is whether or not the heroes will or will not survive. We spend a lot of time being shown Jyn's reasons for fighting, but the film never really does a good job of showing us exactly what she feels about it all and doesn't really show any agency until about fifteen minutes before the film ends by which time it's hard to tell precisely WHY she's doing what she's doing. Does she want Vengeance or justice? Was her speech inspired by the people around her or rage at her fathers death? She's the main protagonist of the film and by the end we know basically nothing about what drives her and are supposed to care that she's dead... and then immediately following this we're supposed to forget about that and marvel at how awesome Darth Vader is.

I'm not saying people can't like Rogue One or anything, nor that its action scenes are bad, I'm just saying as a student of narrative that it's really a poorly constructed film. Heck it's better than the prequels still, so that's great, but while I personally enjoy Episode 7 more than one of the original trilolgy films (Return of the Jedi) Rogue One is sandwiched directly between the prequels and the original trilogy. For all of ep 7's problems I actually like the leads and cared enough to smile right there at the end when Rey swoops that lightsaber into her hands and saves finn, cause I didn't want to see either of them dead. By the time Jyn dies in Rogue One I was just ticking them all off on my fingers like 'okay now this one has to die, now this one, now this one...' and no matter how you look at it, no matter what the overall point of the film is, if you don't care enough about the people you're watching to feel a little sad when they die at the end and wont live to understand how important their actions were to their cause... then the movie has lost something, because there was never any rule that said a movie about a cause can't also have characters we can care about, caring can only enhance the experience.

[Dazzle1]

I did not see Rouge 1, primarily because I thought it was a cheap attempt to make a quick buck.

I stated this at the time Abrams was announced, they would have been better off doing an adaption of Tim Zahn's trilogy even if meant new actors for Luke, Han and Leia.

[tallyho]

Whilst they are all valid points, Femina, its a war film and war films are usually devoid of characterisation. Zulu is a fantastic film - no romantic sub plot, no ulterior motives, not even a grand cause beyond survival and we learn next to nothing about any of the protagonists because it doesn't matter, and tbh it would probably get in the way.

This (R1) isn't anywhere near as good as that, but after 4 average to appalling movies it felt like cinematic gold. You say you are a student of narrative and got to the stage of anticipating the deaths of the characters. Well I would ask you this - what narrative is there in TFA that isn't appalling obvious?

Spoiler

I actually joked with my mat and said the kill Han before I'd even seen it

The flight in amongst the wrecked ships in the desert is the only decent part of the film and would have worked better as the climax with a bit of tweaking -as its near the beginning the only place to go is down hill from there. There was absolutely NO tension to the movie whatsoever because it had all literally been done before. I can't think why you felt as you did in that ending because it was tediously formulaic. As a student of narrative you surely saw it coming?

I get that you don't like R1 and that's fine but did you truly expect

Spoiler

everyone to die who was introduced?

Because I thought there would be at least one survivor who would lead off into the next stand alone film and so when they don't I thought. 'Oh kudos for that'

If you look at the two films, one is rehashed garbage thats weakly structured and hopelessly miscast, and with a patently obvious ending and the other is at least trying to do something new, whether it works or doesn''t.

I get where you are coming from as I agree the lack of characterisation detracted from any investment in their fate, but I would say that that wasn't their (the movie makers) aim and you are ascribing a failure to a story that was never trying to go there. I hated the first half of the film but for me the intricate plotting of the battle scenes worked in spades and saved it, and I thought the direction of those action scenes was very well done. I can't actually remember a single sequence from the climax of TFA it was that forgettable.

[tallyho]

Anyhow what about Jar Jar Abrams?

[Femina]

You say you are a student of narrative and got to the stage of anticipating the deaths of the characters. Well I would ask you this - what narrative is there in TFA that isn't appalling obvious?

That assumes that the obvious is necessarily 'bad narrative' which it isn't. Narrative structure is as much an art as putting musical notes together. If you put certain notes together, they have harmony, if you put the wrong notes together, you get discord. You see this discord in movies where they've changed the ending after a story leak or something. When a story is leading up to and provides ample evidence toward a natural conclusion, EVEN if its an obvious conclusion, a different outcome (unless it also can become the sum of the parts leading up to it) creates a conclusion that isn't in harmony with itself... like say for instance (as a totally random example) a Superman movie keeps indicating that Kryptonite is his weakness... but the ending got spoiled, so rather than restructure the whole work to create a new weakness they leave in all the evidence that Kryptonite is his weakness but at the end suddenly Kryptonite does nothing and his real weakness is peanuts. It's a silly example but you can find more complicated real world examples in movies all the time. The narrative of TFA is obvious because it isn't an 'M. Knight' Sixth Sense or Unbreakable. It isn't supposed to be about shocking the viewer so it doesn't... in fact shocking the viewer was a risk they were VERY SCARED to take due to the film desperately needing to perform better than the prequels. It's not 'the best' Star Wars film ever made sure, but I still enjoy it on a rematch, whereas we only watch the prequels these days with Riftrax running.

The flight in amongst the wrecked ships in the desert is the only decent part of the film and would have worked better as the climax with a bit of tweaking -as its near the beginning the only place to go is down hill from there. There was absolutely NO tension to the movie whatsoever because it had all literally been done before. I can't think why you felt as you did in that ending because it was tediously formulaic. As a student of narrative you surely saw it coming?

Again my ability to see an ending coming doesn't necessarily damage my enjoyment of a work. Action scenes in general I find to be degrading across the board of film, with CGI replacing most filmmakers desire to actually take effort in the sequence and just shovel out some CGI spectacle... that being said the lightsaber fight (as an individual example) was actually a bit more emotionally charged than the saber fights we'd been getting for a long long time there was no 'fancy footwork' and instead it was two people swinging laser swords at each other for reasons that had purpose beyond just including a lightsaber fight at the end (Which yes, it is still guilty of that to an extent as well). For me there was more tension at the end of Ep 7 than R1 due solely on the fact that I cared about Rey and Finn. I liked them, thought they were funny, had good chemistry with one another, and were interesting enough that I wanted to see more of them. In R1, I didn't care about the characters so naturally I felt nothing when any of them died.

As a constructed action sequence however, R1's conclusion was definitely superior, these movies are rare exceptions to some of my movie going experiences too. I didn't like Episode 7 that much the first time i watched it, and overtime began to appreciate it, whereas I actually liked R1 the first time I watched it, and grew dissatisfied over repeat viewings... so it's not like I'm prescribing any sort of rules about how or what people should like :P nor do I consider either ticket purchase a waste of my time as I have with some movies *cough* Transformers *cough* there are valid reasons to enjoy parts of r1, just as there are valid reasons NOT to enjoy things about ep 7... I just prefer the later.

I get that you don't like R1 and that's fine but did you truly expect spoiler

Spoiler

I expected them all to die from the very beginning yes, but that had more to do with the marketing and fellow fan opinions than the actual work itself. My issue was simply that when some of them did began to die, rather than caring that they were dead, I'd become certain that they all would die and was counting them off and sort of in the thought process that the film makers had decided they needed to kill them all off for one reason or another. It didn't actually effect my enjoyment of the film in and of itself... they could have all lived and my opinion of the film would be the same. I didn't care enough about any of them... except the droid :'( ... to care one way or the other.

[tallyho]

C'mon now, as fascinating as this discussion is we are in danger of derailing Dazzle's hate thread lol

[Femina]

C'mon now, as fascinating as this discussion is we are in danger of derailing Dazzle's hate thread lol

I'm pretty sure we already did :P

I hold to my originating post. Abrhams didn't do this one, so drudging up Abrhams hate over something he didn't do seems kind of *shrugs* Yeah his second Trek film wasn't great but his first Star Wars movie was still better than anything Lucas had done with it for thirty years.

[Darkdestroyer17]

I hate JJ abrams too.

However Rian Johnson looks to be doing a decent job. He has a lot of plot holes to correct and flimsy characters to give depth to so i would cut him some slack.

I am more upset that JJ will be back to close out the trilogy. We can all expect more overpowered Rey and an ending that sticks it to the Patriarchy.

[Dogfish]

I hate JJ abrams too.

However Rian Johnson looks to be doing a decent job. He has a lot of plot holes to correct and flimsy characters to give depth to so i would cut him some slack.

I am more upset that JJ will be back to close out the trilogy. We can all expect more overpowered Rey and an ending that sticks it to the Patriarchy.

It looks like she's being set up to be Darth Vader 2 so I'm not sure how 'overpowered' enters the equation.

[Darkdestroyer17]

I hate JJ abrams too.

However Rian Johnson looks to be doing a decent job. He has a lot of plot holes to correct and flimsy characters to give depth to so i would cut him some slack.

I am more upset that JJ will be back to close out the trilogy. We can all expect more overpowered Rey and an ending that sticks it to the Patriarchy.

It looks like she's being set up to be Darth Vader 2 so I'm not sure how 'overpowered' enters the equation.

All we have to go on is the force awakens. Based on that she is beyond overpowered. For reasons stated a million times. In the same film she goes from thinking the force is a myth to performing advanced force abilities on a whim and defeats a 29 year old fully trained force user in a duel.

I dont know where they are going with these films but if its Abrams closing things out it looks like Rey will defeat the entire first order in episode 9 without a single boo boo and Kylo Ren, a Skywalker descendant, will be squashed like an ant under the boot of feminist agenda. Feminist commentary in films is okay. Female heroes are badly needed in film. The issue is when you sacrifice narrative, character depth and you cheapen beloved characters (Luke needing a trilogy to learn what Rey did on her own, Obi-wan needed years of training, Kylo is now ,in the eyes of almost every star wars fan i have spoken to, another whiny weak sky-walker. ).

J.J also for me, plays things way to safe. Which is exactly what Kathleen Kennedy seems to enjoy. Corporate star wars ladies and gentlemen at your service. Probably forced Colin Trevorrow for those very reasons.

[Femina]

All we have to go on is the force awakens. Based on that she is beyond overpowered. For reasons stated a million times. In the same film she goes from thinking the force is a myth to performing advanced force abilities on a whim and defeats a 29 year old fully trained force user in a duel.

How is this still an argument? The SOURCE material literally ends off Kylo's plot thread with his master essentially recalling him to 'complete his training' ... So no matter how you look at it, he's not a fully trained force user... clearly he was a POORLY trained force user... which is a tactic Sith Lords have used since the dawn of time, keep your apprentice only as powerful as they NEED to be, which since he was essentially the only force user walking around, meant he didn't need to be all that well trained to scare the pants off of people.

[Dazzle1]

When I started this thread it was how Abrams has ruined two great franchises.

Even though he may not be doing The Last Jedi, he has set the direction and tone. no need to rehash all the problems or SJW agenda or that Rey is a Mary sue(sorry had to say it)

In the case of ST even the Classic movies were more thinking person than Abrams movies. Of course all the shows were more so

[Dogfish]

I hate JJ abrams too.

However Rian Johnson looks to be doing a decent job. He has a lot of plot holes to correct and flimsy characters to give depth to so i would cut him some slack.

I am more upset that JJ will be back to close out the trilogy. We can all expect more overpowered Rey and an ending that sticks it to the Patriarchy.

It looks like she's being set up to be Darth Vader 2 so I'm not sure how 'overpowered' enters the equation.

All we have to go on is the force awakens. Based on that she is beyond overpowered. For reasons stated a million times. In the same film she goes from thinking the force is a myth to performing advanced force abilities on a whim and defeats a 29 year old fully trained force user in a duel.

I dont know where they are going with these films but if its Abrams closing things out it looks like Rey will defeat the entire first order in episode 9 without a single boo boo and Kylo Ren, a Skywalker descendant, will be squashed like an ant under the boot of feminist agenda. Feminist commentary in films is okay. Female heroes are badly needed in film. The issue is when you sacrifice narrative, character depth and you cheapen beloved characters (Luke needing a trilogy to learn what Rey did on her own, Obi-wan needed years of training, Kylo is now ,in the eyes of almost every star wars fan i have spoken to, another whiny weak sky-walker. ).

J.J also for me, plays things way to safe. Which is exactly what Kathleen Kennedy seems to enjoy. Corporate star wars ladies and gentlemen at your service. Probably forced Colin Trevorrow for those very reasons.

Luke goes from thinking the force is a myth to using it to dunk a couple of torpedoes down an air vent while flying a spaceship through a trench at insane speed with Darth Vader up his arse and all in his first time flying an X-Wing.

Folks keep making the sort of arguments you're making and it's like you're watching a whole different set of movies or something. If you are the Force Chosen Big Cahuna, then you are kind of a big deal.

[Mr. X]

[Mr. X]

Luke goes from thinking the force is a myth to using it to dunk a couple of torpedoes down an air vent while flying a spaceship through a trench at insane speed with Darth Vader up his arse and all in his first time flying an X-Wing.

Folks keep making the sort of arguments you're making and it's like you're watching a whole different set of movies or something. If you are the Force Chosen Big Cahuna, then you are kind of a big deal.

And did anyone say that was good story telling? Was it good story telling when young Anikin blows up the bad guy control ship by accidentally getting in a fighter and shooting the fighter bay?

And Luke had to go through a long training period between the 1st and second movie then some training with Yoda. Mary Sue had never seen a light saber before and within 2 hours is beating a kid with years of training and some under Luke who had killed all Luke's students.

No comparison to kek here. Its bad story telling. She should have lost an eye or hand or something.

[Dogfish]

Is Star Wars good story telling? The first one is, it's great!

Luke using the force to pop the Deathstar is fine. The kid accidentally blowing up whatever it was is crap. Partly because it's an accident WTF and cos it's a shit movie.

And if Rey is the Chosen Force Cahuna and Wossname Sadfaceman is just a regular Jedi then he's got no chance. Might as well be one of the CGI extras in one of the prequels.

You guys work really hard at not enjoying this stuff y'know.

[Darkdestroyer17]

All we have to go on is the force awakens. Based on that she is beyond overpowered. For reasons stated a million times. In the same film she goes from thinking the force is a myth to performing advanced force abilities on a whim and defeats a 29 year old fully trained force user in a duel.

How is this still an argument? The SOURCE material literally ends off Kylo's plot thread with his master essentially recalling him to 'complete his training' ... So no matter how you look at it, he's not a fully trained force user... clearly he was a POORLY trained force user... which is a tactic Sith Lords have used since the dawn of time, keep your apprentice only as powerful as they NEED to be, which since he was essentially the only force user walking around, meant he didn't need to be all that well trained to scare the pants off of people.

Literally none of that is "clear" in the FILM AT ALL. He was 23 at the time he allegedly killed Luke's padawans and drove him off. 23 YEARS OLD. Even is he wasn't fully trained hed be trained enough to beat someone who literally never picked up a light-saber before in their life (adult life for sure). That was poor writing. Poorly trained genetically gifted force user with at least a few years of training should dispatch a non trained force sensitive drifter who never picked up a light saber before that moment.

I made a point in my original post to mention that the film specifically is all we have to go on. People only care about whats on the screen which is why its on the writers and director to make such things clear to the audience.

[Darkdestroyer17]

Luke goes from thinking the force is a myth to using it to dunk a couple of torpedoes down an air vent while flying a spaceship through a trench at insane speed with Darth Vader up his arse and all in his first time flying an X-Wing.

Folks keep making the sort of arguments you're making and it's like you're watching a whole different set of movies or something. If you are the Force Chosen Big Cahuna, then you are kind of a big deal.

And did anyone say that was good story telling? Was it good story telling when young Anikin blows up the bad guy control ship by accidentally getting in a fighter and shooting the fighter bay?

And Luke had to go through a long training period between the 1st and second movie then some training with Yoda. Mary Sue had never seen a light saber before and within 2 hours is beating a kid with years of training and some under Luke who had killed all Luke's students.

No comparison to kek here. Its bad story telling. She should have lost an eye or hand or something.

Exactly.

[Femina]

Literally none of that is "clear" in the FILM AT ALL. He was 23 at the time he allegedly killed Luke's padawans and drove him off. 23 YEARS OLD. Even is he wasn't fully trained hed be trained enough to beat someone who literally never picked up a light-saber before in their life (adult life for sure). That was poor writing. Poorly trained genetically gifted force user with at least a few years of training should dispatch a non trained force sensitive drifter who never picked up a light saber before that moment.

I made a point in my original post to mention that the film specifically is all we have to go on. People only care about whats on the screen which is why its on the writers and director to make such things clear to the audience.

Then don't be selective in what you're willing to take on faith off screen? In the source it's CLEARLY stated that Kylo needs more training, but nowhere is it specifically stated that Kylo killed all of Luke's Padawans and drove him into hiding(except maybe in the books?) and ABSOLUTELY nowhere is it explained HOW he did it. I'm Personally willing to believe that it's possible Kylo did this, BUT that if he did, it almost CERTAINLY wasn't in some grand bad ass duel with Luke and all his students, but much more likely he blew the place up at Mass or something. Just having 'allegedly' murdered a bunch off people who weren't expecting it because they thought they were friends doesn't make the killer skilled or worthy of a reputation he hasn't earned yet from WHAT WE'VE SEEN. People keep bringing up Kylo's alleged murders as evidence that he should have beaten Rey as if THAT'S somehow more important than the actual dialogue in the film specifically indicating that he's NOT trained enough.

I mean, by that logic we can start pulling up any minutely conceivable possibility so long as its not directly contradicted by the film. We can say Rey was maybe one of Luke's most powerful students and suffers from amnesia so she's acting on Force style muscle memory or something. We can say 'Snoke is enormous!' (We know from the trailers for the next one he isn't but again, based solely on TFA we don't know that) We can say Finn and Poe will become lovers!

My point isn't that there aren't potentially valid arguments that Kylo should have beat Rey, but that the argument everyone uses the most is factually incorrect, because nobody ever says 'Kylo was probably better trained and probably should have won' they say 'Kylo is a master force user who definitely should have won!' because that doesn't sound as convincing in an angry rant.

[DionneStock]

Oh wow I really enjoyed Episode 7 even though I never grew up with Star Wars (wasnt even born lol sorry!) I love these movies as my dad made me watch them. I really have a lot of hope for this next one so just wait and see I promise it will be ok or I owe you! xx

[Dazzle1]

Literally none of that is "clear" in the FILM AT ALL. He was 23 at the time he allegedly killed Luke's padawans and drove him off. 23 YEARS OLD. Even is he wasn't fully trained hed be trained enough to beat someone who literally never picked up a light-saber before in their life (adult life for sure). That was poor writing. Poorly trained genetically gifted force user with at least a few years of training should dispatch a non trained force sensitive drifter who never picked up a light saber before that moment.

I made a point in my original post to mention that the film specifically is all we have to go on. People only care about whats on the screen which is why its on the writers and director to make such things clear to the audience.

Then don't be selective in what you're willing to take on faith off screen? In the source it's CLEARLY stated that Kylo needs more training, but nowhere is it specifically stated that Kylo killed all of Luke's Padawans and drove him into hiding(except maybe in the books?) and ABSOLUTELY nowhere is it explained HOW he did it. I'm Personally willing to believe that it's possible Kylo did this, BUT that if he did, it almost CERTAINLY wasn't in some grand bad ass duel with Luke and all his students, but much more likely he blew the place up at Mass or something. Just having 'allegedly' murdered a bunch off people who weren't expecting it because they thought they were friends doesn't make the killer skilled or worthy of a reputation he hasn't earned yet from WHAT WE'VE SEEN. People keep bringing up Kylo's alleged murders as evidence that he should have beaten Rey as if THAT'S somehow more important than the actual dialogue in the film specifically indicating that he's NOT trained enough.

I mean, by that logic we can start pulling up any minutely conceivable possibility so long as its not directly contradicted by the film. We can say Rey was maybe one of Luke's most powerful students and suffers from amnesia so she's acting on Force style muscle memory or something. We can say 'Snoke is enormous!' (We know from the trailers for the next one he isn't but again, based solely on TFA we don't know that) We can say Finn and Poe will become lovers!

My point isn't that there aren't potentially valid arguments that Kylo should have beat Rey, but that the argument everyone uses the most is factually incorrect, because nobody ever says 'Kylo was probably better trained and probably should have won' they say 'Kylo is a master force user who definitely should have won!' because that doesn't sound as convincing in an angry rant.

Of course Kylo is better trained because Rey has not been trained at all. Lets assume Rey has inherinet force abilities as Anakin and Luke did. she still would not know how to use them effectivley. Both Luke and Anakin got training from 2 or more Jedi Masters. Kylo got training from at least one expereinced Jedi knight

[tallyho]

It aint real guys its just a story full of holes. 12 parsecs is a measurement of distance not time. Thats how much effort went in to the sciencey bits of this story. Its white knight saves princess from black knight. Its that simple, just accept it on those terms

[Femina]

It aint real guys its just a story full of holes. 12 parsecs is a measurement of distance not time. Thats how much effort went in to the sciencey bits of this story. Its white knight saves princess from black knight. Its that simple, just accept it on those terms

Don't forget there's sound in space like... CRAZY amounts of sound... and seems to be some sort of wind drag or something the way every ship needs to bank its turns :P.

But yeah... People stopped remembering that Star Wars is more of a morality fable fantasy epic than realistic science fiction story a long long time ago... right around the time you started to see detailed lightsaber schematics.

[DrDominator9]

Don't forget there's sound in space like... CRAZY amounts of sound... and seems to be some sort of wind drag or something the way every ship needs to bank its turns :P.

Not only that but the sounds of the laser cannons really plays hell on my concentration when bombing exhaust ports.

But yeah... People stopped remembering that Star Wars is more of a morality fable fantasy epic than realistic science fiction story a long long time ago... right around the time you started to see detailed lightsaber schematics.

Yeah, and my patent for that saber design has been held up since the Jimmy Carter administration. Damn bureaucrats!

[tallyho]

A little aside on cinema sound - 'Krakatoa East of Java' (sometimes released as 'Volcano!')
A diver in the hold played by the late great Brian Keith is traumatised after suffering the Bends. He has horror flashbacks that involve him being attacked by an Octopus under water. But what sound can they use for the Octopus during the attack, given Octopi are pretty silent and anyway sound is a different entity under water ....?
Why the shriek of a startled cat of course!

BEST. SOUND. EVER! (but in a 'worst' kinda way)

After accepting that, the rumble of a tie fighter exploding is pretty easy to accept.