Does the SHIP fetish have a future?

[lizlettersby]

Saw this mentioned in another thread and it's something that's been on my mind, so I thought I'd create a subforum for discussion.

I would suspect superheroine is a limited market and that other genres sell more. The SH market doesn't seem to grow. Also I'm not even sure if the newer generation likes super heroines all that much.

You'd think it would be more popular than ever, what with the MCU and such. But maybe you are right. Maybe it's only use old farts who grew up watching Wonder Woman and Batgirl on TV who got warped.

Does the superheroine fetish (as we know it) have a future? With changing cultural norms, increasing policing of people's sexuality, and the fact that our interests already are not only taboo but even downright prohibited to announce much less talk about in detail out of this realm, what's going to happen to the spaces we visit to indulge our fantasy?

Will production of this fetish just disappear? Will it be relegated to the dark web? Will it be funneled down to just stories people like us write and possibly roleplaying? Or am I totally wrong here? With the uptick in popular superhero and heroine related content booming today (on Disney+, on the CW, major motion pictures, etc.), will a new generation of superheroine pervs arise? And will this mean an eventual move toward acceptance of the genre or will it still be hush-hush? Or will it mean, perhaps, more of the mainstreaming of superheroine porn -- more of the vanilla type and less of the SHIP type?

I know predictions are difficult if not impossible without full-scale research into the mores, ideas, and trends of the cultures that will become hegemonic, so forgive me if this is a fruitless question, but I'd be awfully interested to hear what you all think. What happens when our generations are gone?

Let's keep this discussion civil and open to everyone's opinion, folks. And thanks for your input!

[Mr. X]

Yes this is something I think about. where's the interest. Is this simply shifted priorities, more volume of material, men changing their views, men losing interest in women? And yes I consider men to be the core audience. Could be we don't have very interesting/sexy heroines now? Except for some spandex costumes in some shows is there any real naughty skin anymore and if so are men instantly shamed for looking at it? Even the blonde on the boys is going back to her traditional cheer leader costume.

[lizlettersby]

Yes this is something I think about. where's the interest. Is this simply shifted priorities, more volume of material, men changing their views, men losing interest in women? And yes I consider men to be the core audience. Could be we don't have very interesting/sexy heroines now? Except for some spandex costumes in some shows is there any real naughty skin anymore and if so are men instantly shamed for looking at it? Even the blonde on the boys is going back to her traditional cheer leader costume.

I've also thought about the fact that in superheroine shows/movies, we don't see too much peril anymore. Granted, I'm not as much of a buff as some of you guys, haven't seen all the stuff out there right now. Also don't have access to some shows. But thinking about things like Batwoman or Scarlet Witch, they fight it out, even lose some of the time, but they don't end up in situations that are perilous because of it. I wonder if newer generations won't get the temptation for SHIP because they're not exposed to these circumstances. It's all action, which I of course love, not saying take that away, but the heroines rarely encounter any treacherous moments. In the exceptional instances they do (I remember one scene from season 1 of Batwoman when she's tied up over a vat of acid or something), there are no sexual undertones as were implied in superheroine shows of yesteryear. You don't expose viewers to that sort of content, I think it will definitely have an effect on where the superheroine fetish is headed.

[Mr. X]

I agree lizlettersby. Lack of peril. Supergirl has some but its not a lot. Plus she's OK to me but because they down dress her or there's nothing sexy really its hard to get into the character for me. Unlike Carter who was a "big" woman or Craig who was curvy and had a sexy demeanor. Could also be the vibe. The "I don't like you" vibe. The "you're not invited" vibe. The "this is not for you" vibe.

Compare that to anime girls who are inviting and warm. Maybe they are aloof but they aren't so distant and cold. With them you feel like you can belong. And there is almost always some eye candy or fan service. In the US the sexiness is worse than the old conservative days.

[tallyho]

You got a lot more exposure to women in slinky outfits in general these days - black leather, pvc, skin tight bodysuits - all used to be pretty much SH exclusives but now they are on catwalks, pop videos and of course in the plethora of SH shows we have. It's a lot of exposure for what used to be a savoured rarity

[Visitor]

There has been a dramatic shift in more than just the suoerhero genre away from peril to more emphasis on fight scenes and explosions. The 1960s had plenty of peril scenes where you got to see the hero or heroine escape from a death trap. But now those scenes aren't really there. Just look at the recent Black Widow movie where the peril was how was she going to fight her way out against dozens of opponents. Or how James Bond films have changed from Bond handcuffed to a bomb in Goldfinger to No Time to Die where the peril is being in his Astin Martin being shot at by henchmen.

Having a cliff hanger peril scene is now considered retro style going back to old time serial shorts. There will always be some fans that want them, but you aren't seeing them as much as in mainstream media.

[Mr. X]

Mainstream is no longer cultivating that crop of naughty young boys who grow up to spend money on videos. And as Talyho said, they can get risque content off only fans. In my day we had to get fun jollies off comic books or glimpses of adult mags. Cartoons in the past had a lot more peril, curve, sex appeal. Teela, Shera, Cheetara, Tara from the Herculoids, Ariel from Thundarr. Daphne from Scooby Doo.

[Abductorenmadrid]

I think that the SHIP genre has more facets to it than you give it credit for. SHIP can be so much more than obvious and direct sexual peril, the things that might awaken something in people can be so much more subtle than that. Picking on "Supergirl" as a point of reference the power shift of Cat Grant demanding Kara remove her glasses to confirm she was Supergirl, or Colonel Hayley barking out Kara's locked down future when her identity was let out would have been a trigger for so many. Throw in SG's capture by Lillian Luthor, or her defeat to Reign ... or her humiliating takedown by the Graves siblings and you can see that while direct sexual peril might be missing the power exchange and the connotations that go with it are ever present.

Basically, I think all the while the superheroines have power and can be deprived of it, there will be people who will get turned on by the possibilities of it and the derived sexual links.

[shevek]

There has been a dramatic shift in more than just the suoerhero genre away from peril to more emphasis on fight scenes and explosions. The 1960s had plenty of peril scenes where you got to see the hero or heroine escape from a death trap. But now those scenes aren't really there. Having a cliff hanger peril scene is now considered retro style going back to old time serial shorts. There will always be some fans that want them, but you aren't seeing them as much as in mainstream media.

Peril existed all the way through at least the 90s, although you're right - its heyday was 60s and 70s.
That's why I always emphasize that the aesthetic of our series, despite modern references, lies squarely in 1970s/80s TV shows,
and the aesthetic of the comic does the same with relation to Bronze Age and early Copper Age comics.

Yes, there is a LOT less peril and sexiness in modern superhero media despite having a lot more content overall.
Some shows even *start out* providing some peril now and then (like for example the very early episodes of Supergirl, Stargirl, and even Batwoman) and then they don't depict those scenarios any more, simply because the writers they are hiring don't put anything like that into the scripts.

That's why it's important that everyone make as much of their own content as possible. That goes the same for comic books
and various other pop cultural pursuits. They can't possibly control or censor everybody, although they can try.

[bushwackerbob]

Yes this is something I think about. where's the interest. Is this simply shifted priorities, more volume of material, men changing their views, men losing interest in women? And yes I consider men to be the core audience. Could be we don't have very interesting/sexy heroines now? Except for some spandex costumes in some shows is there any real naughty skin anymore and if so are men instantly shamed for looking at it? Even the blonde on the boys is going back to her traditional cheer leader costume.

I've also thought about the fact that in superheroine shows/movies, we don't see too much peril anymore. Granted, I'm not as much of a buff as some of you guys, haven't seen all the stuff out there right now. Also don't have access to some shows. But thinking about things like Batwoman or Scarlet Witch, they fight it out, even lose some of the time, but they don't end up in situations that are perilous because of it. I wonder if newer generations won't get the temptation for SHIP because they're not exposed to these circumstances. It's all action, which I of course love, not saying take that away, but the heroines rarely encounter any treacherous moments. In the exceptional instances they do (I remember one scene from season 1 of Batwoman when she's tied up over a vat of acid or something), there are no sexual undertones as were implied in superheroine shows of yesteryear. You don't expose viewers to that sort of content, I think it will definitely have an effect on where the superheroine fetish is headed.

I think for anybody with an interest in SHIP, what you are exposed to when you are young inexorably informs the nature of that fetish when one gets older and that interest in SHIP takes hold, and no doubt, the peril laden stuff older folks like me were exposed to when we were young are not as prevalent as they were for later generations of SHIP aficionados, and thus I think this is where we get the great divide among softcore and hardcore SHIP, with softcore SHIP defined more by checking off all of those boxes which are associated with softcore SHIP, and I suspect most of those folks are older in age whereas most of the hardcore SHIP doesn't seem to have the same commitment to adhering to the checking off of those peril boxes, that it is more about the sexual content than the peril aspect, and those hardcore SHIP fans I suspect are younger folks who simply were not exposed to the amount and kind of peril that us older and softcore folks were exposed to, and therefore you get that great divide among softcore and hardcore SHIP. If folks growing up after us old bastards are not exposed to the same things and aspects of SHIP that we were, then why should we expect these SHIP newbies to have the exact same prurient interest in SHIP as of that of previous generations?

[Maskripper]

Yes

[MightyHypnotic]

I think it does. It all comes down to marketing and exposure.
We like SHIP because we were exposed to it in the 70's and 80s. For me, I was first exposed to it in the comics realm. After that it was re-inforced through television.
I'm actually not a big comic collector nor do I even read that many comics. I have non-industry friends who are SERIOUS collectors which is funny since I was the one that created a SHIP site.
But the thing about ship it it's usually just a couple of factors that bring you in. Maybe someone likes the bondage aspect, or hypnosis, or just love seeing a heroine in that certain costume writhing around from a photon blast. Or maybe the dreaded "C" word. Chloroform!

So, I think it will always prevail. It's always going to be a underground/secondary fetish category. As many have professed in the past, Superheroine fetish doesn't sell as much as people think. There are other fetishes that are a lot more lucrative, but SHIP will always have it's place as long as people keep producing it. And that is the main point. As long as producers /models are creating the content, you will gain new fans. Sort of the tried and true "Build it and they will come" principle. You're turning on new fans all the time.

One more thing, these "new" regulations with VISA/MC have always been with us. Since the day I STARTED. I've explained this before, we're in a down spot in the trend. VISA/MC has stomped their big foot down and a lot of producers who weren't around the last time this happened, the same ones who have been using the banned words, are now scrambling around trying to put all the content under compliance. For those of us who have seen it before, we're ok. And over time, this scrutiny will relax and things will somewhat get back to normal and producers will again start pushing the limits of what they can promote and in another 3 years VISA/MC will come and smack everyone down again. Sound familiar?

[Mr. X]

Yeah Visa put my account out of commission twice. Cost me thousands. They get on some holier than thou mission and they shut everyone down then people ramp back up... then get shut down.

[tamonicus]

I agree with the general vibe here. I too was exposed to SHIP in the 70s, with syndicated Batman episodes, along with WW and EW & DG. But with the underwhelming and SHIP-free revivals of WW and Supergirl, the pipeline isn't drying up.

I believe there were active censors in the 1960s. But they allowed Batgirl to be chained in a basement on network TV in 1967 and Barbarella to be released in 1968. Now, with less active censors (at least officially) along with more distribution avenues, there's less SHIP. Go figure.

Which points to the thought that this may be a slowly dying genre OR it's due for a comeback. And by comeback I mean new movies/TV shows/YT episodes come out that hint at SHIP while having a broader appeal. I do believe SHIP taps into a low-brain fascination in me. Exposure to Batgirl didn't create it but unleashed it. I think it lurks in others, but they don't know it yet.

[Mr. X]

Now, with less active censors (at least officially) along with more distribution avenues, there's less SHIP. Go figure.

When there are Anita Sarkeesians out there shaming for "naughty" content and people banning sexy cosplayers from events and those banners are not conservative xtians and people who are not conservatives complaining about sexy spider woman poses or sexy covers or busty elf chics in video games or Tracer wearing skin tight pants... yeah I think that will joy kill some young people pretty quick.

And you are right... why did we have active censoring from the so called prude group in the past and had this fun content yet today we supposedly are in a more enlightened era and have MORE censorship.

And I'm not convinced its about exploitation given pride parades have tons of hyper sexualized content and no one has an issue with Jason Mamoa and Henry Cavil being shirtless in justice league. Heck Cavil is shirtless for over 25 minutes. But show a 5 second booty shot of Gal Gadot and its "exploitation". Of course this has an effect. Now a days I'm not sure who the church ladies are.

[Damselbinder]

Get off your soapbox. Do not turn this thread into exactly the same thing again. Same talking points over and over.

Not saying you're right. Not saying you're wrong. Just cut it out.

[Mr. X]

True.

[Philo Hunter]

I typed out a huge thing but realized it was all stuff I've said before in basically this same conversation. Instead, I think I need to ask a question to everyone here:

Do you view this forum as specifically a place for SHIP, or is this a place for all superheroine related smut?

For a long time I used the term "SHIP" for a long time to refer to ANY superheroine related smut because that's how it felt like it was being used. I don't know if that impression I had was always wrong, or if what the term refers to has become more focused as other superheroine smut has become more explicit. Whatever the answer to all that is, it often feels like the "older" people here are often not talking about the same thing the younger ones of us talk about when we talk about what brings us here.

[ThatOnePervert]

I typed out a huge thing but realized it was all stuff I've said before in basically this same conversation. Instead, I think I need to ask a question to everyone here:

Do you view this forum as specifically a place for SHIP, or is this a place for all superheroine related smut?

For a long time I used the term "SHIP" for a long time to refer to ANY superheroine related smut because that's how it felt like it was being used. I don't know if that impression I had was always wrong, or if what the term refers to has become more focused as other superheroine smut has become more explicit. Whatever the answer to all that is, it often feels like the "older" people here are often not talking about the same thing the younger ones of us talk about when we talk about what brings us here.

The heaviest form of peril that really interest me is like sex slavery. I can appreciate an old fashion comic book deathtrap, but that's not part of the appeal to me. So if we're defining danger as in bodily harm than I guess I'm just here for superheroine related smut, that I don't think will go away anytime soon.

[Bert]

As long as there are heroines in comics and television and movies, there will be people like us who imagine things going further than they're taken in those media. There's no doubt that the sexual politics of the moment affect what shows up on screens and comic books, but if it's a restrictive time, like now, it will only further stoke the desire of people like us to seek out alternatives. I think as far as producers go, piracy is a much bigger problem that lack of sexy heroines inspiring new customers.

[lizlettersby]

Do you view this forum as specifically a place for SHIP, or is this a place for all superheroine related smut?

For a long time I used the term "SHIP" for a long time to refer to ANY superheroine related smut because that's how it felt like it was being used. I don't know if that impression I had was always wrong, or if what the term refers to has become more focused as other superheroine smut has become more explicit. Whatever the answer to all that is, it often feels like the "older" people here are often not talking about the same thing the younger ones of us talk about when we talk about what brings us here.

I think you make a fantastic point. No doubt SHIP is a term that has evolved, is evolving, and will continue to evolve. I've likewise gotten the impression that folks here don't use it the same way. When I think of what this category refers to, I think of everything from Supergirl ambushed with kryptonite to Batwoman tied up to unmaskings to a superheroine's secret identity being exposed to forced sex or oral or other more explicit adventures. When I think about what I like, what brought me here, I definitely lean more toward sexual peril as someone who has had longtime fantasies about noncon and bdsm. I would make a distinction, however, between content that is just people having sex wearing superhero/heroine costumes -- with no gestures to powers, backstory, depowering, schemes, etc. i.e. mainstream porn in uniform -- and content that attempts to seriously fetishize the attributes of the superhero genre.

What I'm wondering is: will the fetish hold up or will it, long term, transform into this more mainstream type of content? (And thank you everyone who has already addressed this question!) Which I don't think just has to do with the way superheroines are depicted in comics, in movies, on television but also with what we are teaching children about women's rights, "Me Too," sexual politics, moves toward gender equality and autonomy in relationships and parenthood, whether or not the pay gap diminishes, treatment of sex workers, even conceptions of trans identity. I'm not saying we need to take the discussion there -- might get too contentious. Only wanted to point out there's more to this story than just Here's how superheroines are portrayed today. Everything influences everything else.

To address the great question that started all this (lol), it is called "The Ultimate Superheroines Forum" so I would argue this is a place for all things superheroine: platonic, smutty, perilous, or otherwise, or even a mix of these where possible. That said, it seems like most (vocal) members gravitate toward a certain type of subject matter where some sort of peril is involved.

[lizlettersby]

I think as far as producers go, piracy is a much bigger problem that lack of sexy heroines inspiring new customers.

Also curious: do you think piracy, then, is a bigger threat to the future of superheroine content production than the culture is? Is it a problem the industry can sustain?

[Mr. X]

I think as far as producers go, piracy is a much bigger problem that lack of sexy heroines inspiring new customers.

Also curious: do you think piracy, then, is a bigger threat to the future of superheroine content production than the culture is? Is it a problem the industry can sustain?

I know if I produce stand alone content I sell very little to no content. Last item I released I sold 12 copies and saw at least 400 plus downloads off Rapidshare fro just one pirate site.

[shevek]

I believe there were active censors in the 1960s. But they allowed Batgirl to be chained in a basement on network TV in 1967 and Barbarella to be released in 1968. Now, with less active censors (at least officially) along with more distribution avenues, there's less SHIP. Go figure.

I hope the following doesn't violate what Damselbinder said about soapboxes, but I did want to offer an clarification to the above comment by Tamonicus.

Here's the difference:

In the 1960s, there were only a handful of censors, period. Their specific job for network television was to censor inappropriate content. They either said yes or no, based on certain widely-held common values which were almost taken for granted back then
as a centrist Judeo-Christian moral compass, but which would now be considered "right-wing". (But yes, I do understand that other censorship movements around that time, such as the crusade against comics, were considerably more right-wing). You could analogize them as being a handful of religious popes or preachers, essentially, who attempt to rally an unblinking populace through their fiery sermons. Kind of like an inquisition.

Today, it's not true that the censors are "less active", it's just that they are less specialized. Whereas in the 1960s there were just a few people who had a designated job, nowadays the designated/correct attitude of *thousands of people* who work in the industry in creative and administrative positions is that of a specific political bent: left-authoritarian. They mostly got this attitude from going to college in the 00s. Very little gets through because Current Year correctness won't allow it. It's sexist, misogynist, punching down, etc. Instead of just addressing specific instances, they gatekeep almost the entire industry. And in the small instances where something *does* get through, the Twitter mob goes on the attack to crush and cancel it. So, in essence, there are a LOT MORE censors now. Their number is still small (progressives are still only 8% of the American population) when compared to a vast viewing audience, but they rule the roost with iron fists way out of proportion to their numbers (see: The Squad). These days, censorship is better analogized as authoritarian-style, collectivist mob rule. Kind of like a pogrom.

[Mr. X]

Today, it's not true that the censors are "less active", it's just that they are less specialized. Whereas in the 1960s there were just a few people who had a designated job, nowadays the designated/correct attitude of *thousands of people* who work in the industry in creative and administrative positions is that of a specific political bent: left-authoritarian. They mostly got this attitude from going to college in the 00s. Very little gets through because Current Year correctness won't allow it. It's sexist, misogynist, punching down, etc. Instead of just addressing specific instances, they gatekeep almost the entire industry. And in the small instances where something *does* get through, the Twitter mob goes on the attack to crush and cancel it. So, in essence, there are a LOT MORE censors now. Their number is still small (progressives are still only 8% of the American population) when compared to a vast viewing audience, but they rule the roost with iron fists way out of proportion to their numbers (see: The Squad). These days, censorship is better analogized as authoritarian-style, collectivist mob rule. Kind of like a pogrom.

This goes along with Ray Bradbury's explanation of Fahrenheit 451. The book is not about government censorship. Its about self censorship and the protection from harm from differing ideas. Society fractures into so many sub groups, each one offended, that the only thing viewable is nature pictures as you see on the TV sets in the movie adaptation.

But I would think censorship would stretch the rubber band so to speak and make people starved and desperate. I think there is an underlying issue of lack of desire or the pressure is released in other ways. We also did not have other avenues of naughty fun in the old days other than an occasional movie scene or hot chic in a comic book. Now its everywhere.

[Damselbinder]

I believe there were active censors in the 1960s. But they allowed Batgirl to be chained in a basement on network TV in 1967 and Barbarella to be released in 1968. Now, with less active censors (at least officially) along with more distribution avenues, there's less SHIP. Go figure.

I hope the following doesn't violate what Damselbinder said about soapboxes, but I did want to offer an clarification to the above comment by Tamonicus.

It absolutely does.

[Bert]

It absolutely does.

He knows that.

[sneakly]

I think there are two factors at work, one is societal and one is in the media.

Society in the wider sense is getting more equitable for women and using women like Batgirl, Wonder Woman or Emma Peele in a objectified way like they did in the 1960 and seventies is not as acceptable as it once was. You can’t just put tits on a beach like you did on Bay Watch. Female characters are more empowered today than they were. Gal Godot is just not going to get chloroformed and wake up tied to a wooden slab any more. The fetish aspects of the Mrs Peele character were totally intentional to get viewers. The villain of the week format is almost completely dead, so is the idea that Starlight, Stargirl, Batwoman or any other heroine is just going to get tossed repeatedly death traps is probably not going to be happening.

The second part is the availability of fetishized media. Back in the pre-Internet era, there was an incentive for a lot of titillation in media. Dad had to go to the dirty book shop or video store to enjoy fetish and porn. Batgirl, Catwoman and Daisy Duke would get viewers automatically. That is no longer a guarantee, if you want titillation you can get a thousand hours of porn.

The old media model that gave me Batgirl, Wonder Woman and Charlie’s Angels gave me my kinks.

I think kids growing up today are seeing less of the fetishization on TV and getting a much larger and earlier exposure to porn. My taste in kink was formed by Batgirl, Wild, Wild, West, Get Smart, Penelope Pitstop and WW. The next gen is going to think about Gal Gadot, Supergirl and Stargirl. Their imaginings will probably be much different than mine (less passive damsel in distress).

[Visitor]

This goes along with Ray Bradbury's explanation of Fahrenheit 451. The book is not about government censorship. Its about self censorship and the protection from harm from differing ideas. Society fractures into so many sub groups, each one offended, that the only thing viewable is nature pictures as you see on the TV sets in the movie adaptation.

This reminds me in the 1980s on television shows and comic strips, the children being told by the parents to watch an inoffensive nature show. You then get to see the horrified children's reactions to cute little animals being torn apart by predators looking for a meal. It made the censored shows look tame with comic book style violence.

[Imagineer]

There's a future for SHIP content as long as there are people willing to create it. How many of the creators you love got into it for the money or for their ego?

Sure, specific fetishes with singular mainstream sources will fade as the number of people who were exposed to those mainstream sources age out of the market -- clothborne chemical slumber, belt removal, delayed-demise entrapment -- but peril is a basic element of storytelling.

How elaborate and accessible that content gets depends on market forces too numerous and complex to foretell convincingly, but I don't think the news is all bad. The OnlyFans reversal on porn in particular gave me hope that creators and consumers can keep finding and mutually benefiting each other.

[Femina]

Just to be clear

Superheroines AREN'T more prominent than ever yet. Not to the extent that you all are professing. The ratio of heroes to heroines is actually WORSE than it was in the Batman/Wonder Woman television heyday.

There's tons of superhero stuff today and its more popular than ever, but almost NONE of it is Super HEROINE centered. In the big budget Hollywood sphere as such there are basically five big budget films made that focus on superheroines. Wonder Woman 1 and 2, Captain Marvel, Black Widow (who isn't ACTUALLY a superheroine), and Incredibles 2 (which has a lot more heroine peril than people give it credit for). Until there are more superhero films centered around WOMEN, than there won't be an upswing in SHiP. I have absolutely no doubt if the other 25ish Marvel films were focused on superheroines, than our average mean of superheroine peril on screen would be much greater.

Instead y'all pissed on Captain Marvel nonstop over sensationalized and out of context quotations and helped to discourage/slowed the trend on the biggest producer of superhero content out there.

Consequences people, you dig your own graves... though covid's effect on Black Widow shouldn't be ignored either as the plague definitely impacted its bottom line.

[Mr. X]

Just to be clear

Superheroines AREN'T more prominent than ever yet.

There's tons of superhero stuff today and its more popular than ever, but almost NONE of it is Super HEROINE centered. In the big budget Hollywood sphere as such there are basically four films made that focus on superheroines. Wonder Woman, Captain Marvel, Black Widow (who isn't ACTUALLY a superheroine), and Incredibles 2 (which has a lot more heroine peril than people give it credit for). Until there are more superhero films centered around WOMEN, than there won't be an upswing in SHiP. I have absolutely no doubt if the other 25ish Marvel films were focused on superheroines, than our average mean of superheroine peril on screen would be much greater.

Instead y'all pissed on Captain Marvel nonstop over sensationalized and out of context quotations and discouraged the trend.

Consequences people, you dig your own graves.... though covid's effect on Black Widow shouldn't be ignored either. It definitely impacted its bottom line.

Its not the super heroines. Its the lack of sexuality, cheese cake, fan service and fetish. Black Widow was boring. Nothing erotic. You can put all the super heroines out you want but if there's nothing sexy about them, no trigger scenes, uninviting and angry women... you won't get a kink going.

Larson didn't have to make a statement anywhere. There was nothing erotic about Captain Marvel or apparently nothing the vast majority of fetish people liked. No nice booty shots. No erotic struggling. No fan service.

How come the Japanese can generate interest? Because they have inviting girls, fan service and the occasional erotic scene.

And when a scene does occur (3 seconds go Gal Godot's booty or Flash falling on top of Wonder Woman or 5 frames of Wonder Woman's skirt popping up) its attacked as objectifying and its like pouring water on a flame.

Take a look at the fan service done by men. Pratt, Pine, Hemsworth, Evans, Cavill, Mamoa all doing fan service shirts off scenes or shirtless combat scenes. Heck Cavill is shirtless for over 25 minutes in Justice League with Amy Adams running her fingers over his chest for part of it and NO COMPLAINTS. WHAT did men get for any sexy naughtiness in Justice League. Name one thing.

So go ahead and have all the super heroine movies you want. Without fan service, kink, erotica or sexy shots you won't get the fetish.

[Femina]

Just to be clear

Superheroines AREN'T more prominent than ever yet.

There's tons of superhero stuff today and its more popular than ever, but almost NONE of it is Super HEROINE centered. In the big budget Hollywood sphere as such there are basically four films made that focus on superheroines. Wonder Woman, Captain Marvel, Black Widow (who isn't ACTUALLY a superheroine), and Incredibles 2 (which has a lot more heroine peril than people give it credit for). Until there are more superhero films centered around WOMEN, than there won't be an upswing in SHiP. I have absolutely no doubt if the other 25ish Marvel films were focused on superheroines, than our average mean of superheroine peril on screen would be much greater.

Instead y'all pissed on Captain Marvel nonstop over sensationalized and out of context quotations and discouraged the trend.

Consequences people, you dig your own graves.... though covid's effect on Black Widow shouldn't be ignored either. It definitely impacted its bottom line.

Its not the super heroines. Its the lack of sexuality, cheese cake, fan service and fetish. Black Widow was boring. Nothing erotic. You can put all the super heroines out you want but if there's nothing sexy about them, no trigger scenes, uninviting and angry women... you won't get a kink going.

Larson didn't have to make a statement anywhere. There was nothing erotic about Captain Marvel or apparently nothing the vast majority of fetish people liked. No nice booty shots. No erotic struggling. No fan service.

How come the Japanese can generate interest? Because they have inviting girls, fan service and the occasional erotic scene.

And when a scene does occur (3 seconds go Gal Godot's booty or Flash falling on top of Wonder Woman or 5 frames of Wonder Woman's skirt popping up) its attacked as objectifying and its like pouring water on a flame.

Take a look at the fan service done by men. Pratt, Pine, Hemsworth, Evans, Cavill, Mamoa all doing fan service shirts off scenes or shirtless combat scenes. Heck Cavill is shirtless for over 25 minutes in Justice League with Amy Adams running her fingers over his chest for part of it and NO COMPLAINTS. WHAT did men get for any sexy naughtiness in Justice League. Name one thing.

So go ahead and have all the super heroine movies you want. Without fan service, kink, erotica or sexy shots you won't get the fetish.

Quantity equates to fanservice. Wonder Woman as a television show has MUCH MUCH MUCH less quality peril than nostalgia tells you it has. There's like a grand total of three or four episodes in its entire run where Diana EVER struggles to do anything, and the peril shots last about five or six seconds each in the episodes. Batgirl is of course imperiled often in her single season of content... but that was also just the shows jam and there was nothing at all anyone could lob a 'sexist' comment at since they were just as willing to imperil their leading men in every episode ever.

If you don't put superheroines on the screen ever, than you'll NEVER get the content you are looking for. If there were as many Marvel films focused on WOMEN as there are on the men, than you'd have MUCH more peril content to pull from and inspire SHiP content from. It's just math. It you poo poo on every median superheroine film that DOESN'T have EXACTLY what you personally are looking for, than nobody is going to bother making them AT ALL.

[Mr. X]

Quantity equates to fanservice.

WHAT?! No it does not. Look at Wonder Woman. It took maybe 3 or 4 scenes to make that show a fetish hit. The show did not become a fetish hit cause they simply aired a bunch of episodes. ALL IT TOOK was those 3 or 4 episodes. And you see this by the scenes posted. And BTW there's a lot more. WW running. Diana at the beach, booty shots, cleavage whenever she wore the suit. SHE WORE A GODDAMNED SEXY SUIT WTF!


Superheroines are not on the screen because they don't draw in male customers because 1. The actresses do nothing sexy 2. no sexy or erotic or fan services scenes. 3. male viewers are demeaned and humiliated and shamed for even seeing 3 seconds of something erotic. 4. Actresses hostile toward the fan base... I could go on.

And I know this cause all we have to do is take a look at Japanese stuff and its extremely popular. Supposedly one series in Jpana sold more than the entire American market of DC and Marvel combined.

Another grand example, Black Scorpion. Dozens of episodes but goes unremembered because it rarely if ever had fan service fetish in it. I'm sure the fan service for these movies is for some other audience (20 minutes of Cavill shirtless in justice leauge... coff coff, shirtless Mamoa... coff coff, shirtless vampires and werewolves... coff coff)

Its not quantity... its quality.

We will NEVER get peril or erotica.

But yeah you're right Femina, I've been doing what I do for probably 20 years now and I have no idea what pushes men fetish buttons. Clearly all I had to do was flood the market with pics of drab, angry and unsexy super heroines shaming the men who look at them.

[Femina]

Quantity equates to fanservice.

WHAT?! No it does not. Look at Wonder Woman. It took maybe 3 or 4 scenes to make that show a fetish hit. The show did not become a fetish hit cause they simply aired a bunch of episodes. ALL IT TOOK was those 3 or 4 episodes. And you see this by the scenes posted. And BTW there's a lot more. WW running. Diana at the beach, booty shots, cleavage whenever she wore the suit. SHE WORE A GODDAMNED SEXY SUIT WTF!

That's fair, and I would like to clarify my previous statement (though it did have something to say about the limited nature of the peril in WW as is) I don't mean that quantity of PERIL is the factor here. We're a less overt species than we used to be, so it takes more quantity than it used to in order to produce the quality of the sort of peril that sparks the imagination.

Superheroines are not on the screen because they don't draw in male customers because 1. The actresses do nothing sexy 2. no sexy or erotic or fan services scenes. 3. male viewers are demeaned and humiliated and shamed for even seeing 3 seconds of something erotic. 4. Actresses hostile toward the fan base... I could go on.

And the less you're willing to watch of them, the less and less we'll ever be presented the opportunity for the sorts of scenarios that will inspire new SHiP enthusiasts. I'm not saying a correlation doesn't exist here, I am not saying that our more timid and carefully 'mainstream' presentation of heroines on the screen doesn't impact the attention of the SHIP crowd... I'm merely stating that one can be the harbinger of their own woes. If you won't watch a superheroine film that isn't tailored for 'the sexy' than you indirectly convince the people who make films that you don't want ANYTHING superheroine related AT ALL. I doubt anyone here will ever properly reflect what their whole 'boycot Captain Marvel!!!!!' BS has on the image of what the future of SHiP entails... but I personally remember the event as the single most ironic moment of our websites history at least, if not all of SHiP WorldWideWebwide.

And I know this cause all we have to do is take a look at Japanese stuff and its extremely popular. Supposedly one series in Jpana sold more than the entire American market of DC and Marvel combined.

hmmm, I'm not sure which series you're talking about so I can't comment on that, but if we're talking the underground 'porn' of japanese superheroines I don't know that I agree its a significant factor here? They only occasionally make things based on Western characters which is the real question this topic is asking right? Nobody is that concerned at the state of JAPANESE SHiP I don't think. They have whole production companies based in it... and they also have literally hundreds of episodes of anime television premiering yearly that tend to include 'heroine' type characters... if America were producing the same volume of mainstream material focused on heroines, I suspect you'd find a natural rise in Western character SHiP content as well... I mean with Marvel ramping up on it, we may only be a few years off from this right now for all we know... the next decade could maybe answer this threads question once and for all.

Another grand example, Black Scorpion. Dozens of episodes but goes unremembered because it rarely if ever had fan service fetish in it. I'm sure the fan service for these movies is for some other audience (20 minutes of Cavill shirtless in justice leauge... coff coff, shirtless Mamoa... coff coff, shirtless vampires and werewolves... coff coff)

AHA!!!! But Black Scorpion DOES have FAR MORE peril per episode content than Wonder Woman EVER had... and plenty of it the sorts of perils that people here EAT UP. I don't know that it works here either. It was produced basically 'pre-internet age' or at the least before the internet was just RAMPANT in the way it is today. The number of SHiP enthusiast sites that were around in those days were a lot harder to find... One might find that today, Black Scorpion might have done a lot better in our crowd. It was sort of produced in a bit of a transitory period in television and advertising... the fact it was only ever on SYFY cable thus harder to find may also factor...

I mean... I watched it when I could.

Its not quantity... its quality.

Quality of PERIL maybe. But as we've deduced quantity of peril in WW didn't matter... my only point is that until we have a much greater quantity of Superheroines dominating the screen today than we do, our odds of getting the quality of PERIL we'd like is basically nil. BATGIRL imperiled every other episode is a pipedream today, but seeing 'Spidergirl' chloroformed once in a series run in the way that pushes peoples buttons is much more likely to happen in this day and age if it's just one of a dozen superheroine properties flooding the market.

The olden days are gone yeah, we'll never have the quality per quantity we once had, but until the market of superheroine properties is widespread and considered 'safe' to approach by the suits, few if ANY are going to take the risk of offending to many with fanservice-type peril shots. I think we'd find that creators would be a lot more comfortable doing that sort of thing when the market feels 'settled' that superheroines are just as prominent and varied as the male supers.

[Imagineer]

People don't need to be spoonfed fetish material to develop a fetish.
And they don't need to see superheroines objectified on screen to want to see sexy versions of them.

https://www.deviantart.com/costalonga/a ... -791072222
https://www.deviantart.com/amyroseater/ ... -807803839
https://www.deviantart.com/captp1/art/C ... -857759057
https://www.deviantart.com/conanrock/ar ... -789927397
https://www.deviantart.com/oscarsaddfri ... -889473910
https://www.deviantart.com/arion69/art/ ... -890888067

[Mr. X]

Ok you're all right. I have no idea what I'm talking about. Have at it. I'm sure things will become better.

BTW thanks Imagineer for those grand example of thirsty fetish people who had to ADD SEXUALITY to the characters like Captain Carter and her ass shot. Again thanks for that snapshot.

[Femina]

People don't need to be spoonfed fetish material to develop a fetish.
And they don't need to see superheroines objectified on screen to want to see sexy versions of them.

https://www.deviantart.com/costalonga/a ... -791072222
https://www.deviantart.com/amyroseater/ ... -807803839
https://www.deviantart.com/captp1/art/C ... -857759057
https://www.deviantart.com/conanrock/ar ... -789927397
https://www.deviantart.com/oscarsaddfri ... -889473910
https://www.deviantart.com/arion69/art/ ... -890888067

I sort of think they DO.... insofar as 'Does SHiP have a Futrure?' as this thread is questioning.

Obviously if you are ALREADY steeped in SHiP culture than you don't need to be spoonfed anything... Most of my fetishy characters are OC's with little to do with canon stuff at all... but in order to enter the fetish PERIOD... one has to be exposed to it. Few if anybody develop a fetish for a thing they've never even seen.

You don't find numerous fanart of Captain Marvel strung up in an upside down containment posture consistently until the image has been presented in scale... similarly you don't find numerous fanarts of the staple chloroforming until Diana was KO'd under the stage by Nazi's... now you'd be hard-pressed to find a single superheroine in exitance who doesn't have dozens of chloroform fanarts.

I think the fear under this threads question is if people today are being attracted to SHiP enough to make a solid foundational future for sites like this in... let's say.... the next twenty or thirty years or to in fact see it GROW... and for that I think we absolutely need mainstream softcore source material to derive from. Without being spoon-fed material from the top, eventually places like this will die out.

Ok you're all right. I have no idea what I'm talking about. Have at it. I'm sure things will become better.

BTW thanks Imagineer for those grand example of thirsty fetish people who had to ADD SEXUALITY to the characters like Captain Carter and her ass shot. Again thanks for that snapshot.

Oh relax, I'm merely positing my opinion on the state of things as a response to the topic question, and I've plenty agreed with some of your points, no need to get all but hurt that I don't share every single one of your observations. As I am HERE, I can assure you that we'd both like to see a more comfortable basis for depicting openly sexualized depictions of superheroines and edging a little more into mainstream. I'm simply positing my suspicion that until society at large as it is today see's more Superheroines IN GENERAL, we're like to see less and less of what we look for here.

[Bert]

Another grand example, Black Scorpion. Dozens of episodes but goes unremembered because it rarely if ever had fan service fetish in it.

First off, two dozen does technically count as "dozens", but not by much.

And secondly, Black Scorpion is among the most fan servicey series ever made in America. Roger Corman was the king of schlock.



You go on and on about current movies being devoid of sexy or peril content, but it's there. WW1984 may not be the best superhero movie ever made (it's not the worst either), but it's made by a woman and still has plenty of good stuff in it.

wonder-woman-1984-4.jpg (379.04 KiB) Viewed 3665 times

Singlehandedly taking on an entire military escort team while starting to lose her powers, including shots like this, that's peril and it's sexy.

0c32cd724a96ad21a6f38610881bac1a.jpg (62.8 KiB) Viewed 3665 times

How is putting Diana in this dress different from a shirtless Cavill?

vlcsnap-2021-10-18-03h30m12s626.png (740.16 KiB) Viewed 3665 times

Wonder Woman getting shot, crying out in pain, in serious danger from soldiers trying to take her out - that's pretty perilly stuff. Especially after how she mowed through soldiers in the first movie. She also gets her ass handed to her by Cheetah in the White House, as well as almost losing to a mere security guard.

Buffy had tons of peril. Lost World had tons of peril.

Just because the absolutely current zeitgeist is strongly anti-sexysploitation doesn't mean it will stay this way, and it also doesn't mean sexy, perilly stuff isn't getting made. There will be scenes in shows and movies going forward that inspire young pervs to seek out the material we love.

[Maskripper]

Another grand example, Black Scorpion. Dozens of episodes but goes unremembered because it rarely if ever had fan service fetish in it.

First off, two dozen does technically count as "dozenS", but not by much.

And secondly, Black Scorpion is among the most fan servicey series ever made in America. Roger Corman was the king of schlock.
....

And it's actually 22 episodes, so it doesn't even count as "dozens" #nitpick

Yep, I would say you can't build in much more fan service fetish and sexyness as in Black Scorpion:
- lots of knockouts, beatings, fights...all sorts of perils etc.
- LOTS of secret identity perils incl. unmaskings, unmasking-attempts, self-unmaskings, forced unmaskings
- Darcy Walker shows a lot of cleavage and mostly wears heels and pantyhose all day long (sexiest police detective in TV history)
- Black Scorpion is wearing heels (unless they disappear in action shots), pantyhose and has a nice cleavage
- MANY sexy villainesses in crazy costumes
- a lot of female roles like the mayor's secretary that has no brains but really big boobs
- a lot of camera angles that are really....showing (cleavage shots)
- basically, all women in the show are sexy and wearing sexy clothes
etc.

[Mr. X]

Ok then. No issue with the fetish. Sail on.

[Femina]

Just because the absolutely current zeitgeist is strongly anti-sexysploitation doesn't mean it will stay this way, and it also doesn't mean sexy, perilly stuff isn't getting made. There will be scenes in shows and movies going forward that inspire young pervs to seek out the material we love.

Yup and that's sort of my observation above. I'm not saying it isn't true that people are less willing to show sexy peril with superheroines than they used to be... that'd be MAD. I think it's blatantly obvious that today we seem cagey about it (They are, quite frankly, cagey about superheroines AT ALL, and thus approach all their female lead superfilms with the terrified attitude that they are carrying something radioactive and so we get few peril and sexy shots) and that the SOLUTION to the issue TODAY (which is not the same social mockup that existed in the old era by any stretch of the imagination) is too get more superheroine material out there en masse until the big wigs are certain that it isn't radioactive and feel more comfortable to present superheroines with the same devil may care 'sex sells' machismo and casual sexual assertiveness that they currently do with Shirtless Thor/Superman etc.

It's my observation, it's what I see as the SHiP solution today, I could be wrong...

I mean... what's your opinion Mr. X? I'm seeing a lot of poopooing out of you on of my opinion on why our fetish may be on the decline, but not really getting a good read on yours. Would you like to continue on with a ratio of like 12:1 heroes over heroine films but just like... make sure that the 1 heroine film is as sordidly campy and sexy as possible so that the totally obnoxious and prudish human beings of today couldn't ever possibly take them seriously enough to succeed thus ensuring SHiP remains a dying niche?

I mean what's wrong with my basic bitch mathematic solution that quantity eventually presents you with the gems you need to inspire? You know? This is all just like... my opinion man? What's with the sulk?

[tallyho]

Soooo... You don't believe the sulk.... Does that make it... Wait for it....

AN INCREDIBLE SULK!!!!!!




( Ba-doom CHAAA!! )

I'm here all week.

(apologies lads I know I'm a twat)

[batgirl1969]

It seems odd that Superhero films and tv shows are more popular now than ever so you would think more people would be into the SHIP just knowing how sexy men and women in costume look on screen, the human fetish perverted driven people will seek out these superheros and villains in sexy situations either pics or stories, look at all the fanfic and shipping some of these other popular genres get!! If producers keep producing quality high level costumed ship stuff I bet people would consume and find it...plus it seems porn is more accepted than ever and the amount of sexually fluid actors and actresses makes for more flavor onscreen!! Plus did anyone catch Daphne from Scooby as Batgirl???

[Imagineer]

People don't need to be spoonfed fetish material to develop a fetish.
And they don't need to see superheroines objectified on screen to want to see sexy versions of them.

I sort of think they DO.... insofar as 'Does SHiP have a Futrure?' as this thread is questioning.

...in order to enter the fetish PERIOD... one has to be exposed to it. Few if anybody develop a fetish for a thing they've never even seen.

...I think the fear under this threads question is if people today are being attracted to SHiP enough to make a solid foundational future for sites like this in... let's say.... the next twenty or thirty years or to in fact see it GROW... and for that I think we absolutely need mainstream softcore source material to derive from. Without being spoon-fed material from the top, eventually places like this will die out.

I think your disagreement is mostly semantics, stretching the meaning of spoonfed, for example. Elsewhere you seem agreeable with the idea that it doesn't take much to give people a kinky notion. Bert gets it. As I said before, specific fetishes will fade, but peril is a basic element of storytelling. Making mainstream superheroine TV shows and movies will be enough to spark creators and consumers.

Indeed, the ingredients don't all have to be in the same batch of cookies. They don't have to be female superheroes for people to imagine sexy female versions. And it doesn't have to be spandex-clad characters being imperiled for people to combine those two elements.

We might never see a return of unapologetic deliberate pandering to the male gaze in mainstream superheroine content. I think new SHIP fans and content will persist regardless.

A place like this might be more likely to die out because the idea of going to a subject-specific website seems to have fallen out of favor. It will probably take tags on Pornhub and enclaves on Reddit and (holds nose) Facebook to gently lead people to this watering hole.

[Femina]

People don't need to be spoonfed fetish material to develop a fetish.
And they don't need to see superheroines objectified on screen to want to see sexy versions of them.

I sort of think they DO.... insofar as 'Does SHiP have a Futrure?' as this thread is questioning.

...in order to enter the fetish PERIOD... one has to be exposed to it. Few if anybody develop a fetish for a thing they've never even seen.

...I think the fear under this threads question is if people today are being attracted to SHiP enough to make a solid foundational future for sites like this in... let's say.... the next twenty or thirty years or to in fact see it GROW... and for that I think we absolutely need mainstream softcore source material to derive from. Without being spoon-fed material from the top, eventually places like this will die out.

I think your disagreement is mostly semantics, stretching the meaning of spoonfed, for example. Elsewhere you seem agreeable with the idea that it doesn't take much to give people a kinky notion. Bert gets it. As I said before, specific fetishes will fade, but peril is a basic element of storytelling. Making mainstream superheroine TV shows and movies will be enough to spark creators and consumers.

Indeed, the ingredients don't all have to be in the same batch of cookies. They don't have to be female superheroes for people to imagine sexy female versions. And it doesn't have to be spandex-clad characters being imperiled for people to combine those two elements.

We might never see a return of unapologetic deliberate pandering to the male gaze in mainstream superheroine content. I think new SHIP fans and content will persist regardless.

A place like this might be more likely to die out because the idea of going to a subject-specific website seems to have fallen out of favor. It will probably take tags on Pornhub and enclaves on Reddit and (holds nose) Facebook to gently lead people to this watering hole.

.... I didn't even initiate the usage of the term spoonfed? I was using it in response to the last guy who said it... yeah I'm being semantic with it? So what?

I'm just discussing the topic? A question was asked, I'm positing where I theorize the idea could be deriving from. Indeed as you've notated, for the most part I find questions and fears like this to probably be over reaction and sensationalism... but this is also the sort of place you go to for that kind of discussion isn't it?

I personally DON'T actually think SHiP is CURRENTLY dying in the sense that I doubt it's just vanishing today or tomorrow, but I have noticed the community as a whole feels to be slowing down. In any case I'm choosing to interpret the topic question as a concern for the future and this is how I suspect the fetish MIGHT die... and I don't think I'm stretching anything in that sense. I'd argue very hard that people don't come to conceptualize things often unless they are exposed to it. We're iterative creatures. The occasional flash of original brilliance DOES occur, but that is the difference between the thousands of years humanity spent developing language... and the way today's Twittersphere creates and discards nonsense buzzwords at record pace. If people aren't being exposed to SHiP it's logical to expect that over time the fetish will fail to bring in a suitable volume of newcomers and thus won't have a future in the context that the topic question is asking.

[Imagineer]

I think it will take one or more significant sustained reversals from current societal trends, more than the overall political polarization the world is experiencing, to kill the sustained creation and consumption of SHIP content. I worry a little that a big enough swing of a single pendulum could scorch the SHIP earth (and there are several ominous-looking pendulums up there), but if that happens SHIP will recover in the sunlight of the broader trend of accepting diversity. And I don't think it requires more than sustaining "superpowers" as a theme in pop culture storytelling, which seems a pretty safe bet.

[Femina]

I think it will take one or more significant sustained reversals from current societal trends, more than the overall political polarization the world is experiencing, to kill the sustained creation and consumption of SHIP content. I worry a little that a big enough swing of a single pendulum could scorch the SHIP earth (and there are several ominous-looking pendulums up there), but if that happens SHIP will recover in the sunlight of the broader trend of accepting diversity. And I don't think it requires more than sustaining "superpowers" as a theme in pop culture storytelling, which seems a pretty safe bet.

I think that the worry also comes directly from this website most likely? While it may be true that the old haunts are perhaps dwindling in legacies and not bringing in new blood to their old circles... I don't feel like my Deviantart feed has ever much slowed down on SHiP themed fanarts, stories, and whatnot else. Rule 34 isn't emptying out in any significant sense either.

So yeah, my DIRECT answer to the question. Yes, I suspect SHiP's future is currently just fine...

For my thoughts on what could be theoretically wrong with it that COULD lead to it fading to irrelevance one day see my previous posts.